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Ah sam--those Feminist Epistomologists! What a great name!

Yesterday on your advice I spent a long time ( well it wasn't that long-just felt like it) aquainting myself with their point of view. Although I can see the attraction of some of their ideas about the nature of the aquisition of knowledge and I feel that language is often used unthinkingly and far too glibly, I am having problems accepting the artificial constructs that I feel are the result of much of this particular philosophy. This is evident in the quotation above. We are all, regardless of gender, even if we are male, 'enmeshed in social relations... etc'.

Broadening the origin and application of this quotation to include all would be a nice idea though, so I think I am, after all, agreeing with your last sentence.


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Hiya Ellis,

( well it wasn't that long-just felt like it) -E.
...but sometimes the hours just fly by on some of those things.

...and also, thanks for the thoughtful reply.

One of the main things I learned during my quarter of "feminist studies," was that there are ~5 to 7 basic 'flavors' of feminist perspectives.
I thought of this when I read, "...their point of view." -E.

Gosh, if you think about it, there are probably also just as many masculine points of view on "social relations...etc."

But yes, I agree Feminism is just anothr way of saying that context matters (or that one's own context probably doesn't apply to someone else).
I think those "artificial constructs" are just attempts to name the many dimensions of context; but that doesn't make them any less awkward.

Cheers! smile
~Samwik


Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.
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Unfortunately I have actually found myself thinking about this subject more than I perhaps would wish!!!!

I do agree with your points but I think the difficulty of thinking through these theories is that our actual language, ie the actual words we use, are gender neutral in spite of the fudging of things like history/ herstory (which often show ignorance of the origins of words themselves). It is entirely possible to write English in a way that does not indicate the gender of the writer. This can be useful and does not need defence like wanting to change Manchester to Womanchester.

My definition of feminism has always included the abolition of these and other "artificial constructs" to enable the achieving of the aim that I see as most important. That is equality for all regardless of their gender, race or religion- and I think the means for doing that are already present in our western societies. Barriers need to come down, not go up.

That sounds really prissy, but it is still almost as far away as when it seemed to make so much sense forty years ago!!

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Hiya Ellis,

I think what you wrote sounds altruistic; not as you described.

I shoulda composed this first, because i've had several different lines of thought as i sit here to write.

Quote:
"...when it seemed to make so much sense...." -E.

...isn't there some Rod Stewart song...?

It is always a little surprising when we are able to see more layers or depth in a subject.

Discrimination between something beneficial or deleterious is a good thing.
Equality that creates sameness and discourages diversity is a bad thing.

...of course there's equality of opportunity to strive for, but even that is very context dependent.

..oh yes, re: "...the abolition of these and other "artificial constructs...." I wonder if Recognition (literally, re-thinking) of the constructs, and putting them in context, might be enough.

There were some thoughts I had involving Capitalism and freedom; and linking them with increasing opportunities and "contexts." Maybe later. Sorry, I'll try to get Back On Topic.

I was also thinking of conversations as being an evolutionary process; because language is interpreted through cumulative context and is mutated slightly through each iteration of utterance. smile

Now that was a fun phrase! smile

...that was supposed to be BOT, but...anyway.

Thanks,
~SA


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Sorry, just one more barely related post: Language is important!

If I were trying to promote everyday Heroism, I wouldn't put it on a website called LuciferEffect.com. That's not an easy site to mention to other parents at the school.
http://www.lucifereffect.com/heroism.htm

...without going into how it's by a Stanford psychologist (Congressional witness on Iraq War crimes) who wrote a book called The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil.
http://www.lucifereffect.com/index.html

smile ...just honing my comedy routine. ~Thanks BookTV!

~SA


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No idea about Rod Stewart--is he a closet re-constructed feminist!!!

Language is very important, and often used manipulatively or sloppily. We are lucky to be using English which is actually gender-neutral. Some languages aren't.

I agree that acknowleding the 'constructs' would be a good idea, but letting their existence cloud our progress as we get all het up is very counter-productive and also hands those who may wish to make mischief a very handy hook to divert the debate into a pathway that could easily become trivialised. There are lots of instances of this!!

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Originally Posted By: Ellis
No idea about Rod Stewart--is he a closet re-constructed feminist!!!
Guess not everyone knows who Rod Stewart is, but yes I think he might be a "closet re-constructed feminist," if not out-of-the-closet! smile

Originally Posted By: Ellis
Language is very important, and often used manipulatively or sloppily. We are lucky to be using English which is actually gender-neutral. Some languages aren't.

I agree that acknowleding the 'constructs' would be a good idea, but letting their existence cloud our progress as we get all het up is very counter-productive and also hands those who may wish to make mischief a very handy hook to divert the debate into a pathway that could easily become trivialised. There are lots of instances of this!!
I recently became aware of how the word Evolutionism is used in that way (emphasis on the 'ism' part).

But...
Could we communicate without the constructs?

We do need to keep re-examining our constructs, though.
"Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty" -T.Jefferson

Cheers,
~SA


Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.
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