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#20428 - 04/14/07 03:38 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
"The Endless Power of the Human Spirit"

A phrase totally devoid of meaning.

Roughly the equivalent of "my favorite color is green" except that in the later case it might just be true.
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#20456 - 04/14/07 07:13 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
THE EFFECT OF PRAYER ON PLANTS, AND OTHER THINGS
In the 1960's and 1970's I was a close friend--still am--of the then Religion Editor of the Toronto Star, Allen Spraggett--a careful student of philosophy, psychology, theology and all the religions. He was very interested in the role played psychology, psychic phenomena, parapsychology in religion and faith healing, and the like.

It was with his help that I first met the Rev. Dr. Franklin Loehr--minister and researcher regarding the claims of religion--in 1963. Then, in cooperation with the Toronto Star, I invited him and his wife to my church and my home. He spoke to my whole congregation on a Sunday and to a special group interested in faith and healing, later. He spoke of his carefully controlled experiments on the nature and effect of prayer on seeds and plant life.
===============================
Does prayer effect plant seeds?
===============================

He told us that the objective of his controlled experiments was to see what effect prayer had over living and seemingly non-living matter.

In one experiment--covered in detail is his book, with pictures--his research team took three pans of various types of seeds. One was the control pan. One pan received positive prayer, and the other received negative prayer.

Time after time, the results indicated that prayer helped speed germination and produced more vigorous plants. Prayers of negation actually halted germination in some plants and suppressed growth in others.

In another experiment two bottles of spring water were purchased. One container was used as a control, receiving no prayer; a group prayed for the second.

The water was then used on pans of corn seeds layered in cotton, with one pan receiving the prayer water and the other receiving the control water. The pan receiving the prayer water sprouted a day earlier than seeds in the other pan. The prayer seeds had a higher germination and growth rate. The experiment was repeated with the same result each time.

MY DAUGHTER'S EXPERIMENT--on the power of focussed imagination, affirmitive and meditative prayer
As I have written above, my daughter, a child in the 1963, was very ill at that time of Dr. Loehr's visit. But what I learned from him and others helped, later, to restore her to health.

Years later, when she was a healthy Grade 9 student in junior high, my daughter became very interested in understanding more about the power, which had been of so much help to her. Thus she read the book of which she heard me speak, The Power of Prayer on Plants, by Dr. Loehr. I still have it in my library.

Inspired by this, and with her science teacher's permission and supervision, she decided to do an experiment. I still have her hand-written document on file in which she tells about what she did and what happened as a result of her experiment. She used tomato seeds.

HERE IS A SUMMARY
She planted three containers of fifteen tomatoe seeds each, all with the same kind of soil and each received the same amount of watering.

Container #1, the control group, was set aside and left to grow, naturally, on its own, with no attention other than watering.

Container #2 was placed next to container #3. Using her imagination and a focussed and meditative kind of prayer, she prayed over #3.

The seeds in the container #3 sprouted quickly and grew quite well.

Meanwhile the seeds in container #2 sprouted and grew as expected and in pace with the control group.

At this point, my daughter did something unusual. She focussed on the healthy plants in container #3. She sent them negative prayer-thoughts. Soon, they stopped growing and began to die.

Then she focussed on the slow-growing container #2. Rapidly the plants developed and surpassed the plants in # 3, which continued to wither. Then they all died. Meanwhile, #2 container progressed, rapidly.

I FOUND THE FOLLOWING EXPERIMENT TRULY AMAZING: She brought the healthy plants home--the ones in #2 container--and put them in the freezer long enough to freeze them. Then she took them out; focussed on them her postive imagination and warm prayer thoughts. They survived the freezing and continued their growth as healthy plants.

That summer I had the best tomatoes I ever had.

Her supervising teacher gave her top marks for the project.

My daughter, now an accomplished artist, and her artist husband now live in a floating home, and a floating garden as part of it, near Tofino, British Columbia. It covers over one quarter of an acre. There, they do their art and grow all the vegetables they need. Check out:
http://www.wildretreat.com/
This will give you some idea of what the Tofino area looks like. My daughter said: "This place time came to me as a result of focussed meditative praying."

Her mother and I have visited there, often. It is a work of art in progress, which is at a new creative stage each time we see it.

================================
http://www.plim.org/PrayerDeb.htm
=================================
For three years, beginning in 1952, Dr. Loehr conducted a double-locked laboratory experiment, using 156 people to determine if prayer could have an effect on the growth of plants.

THERE ARE FOUR TYPES OF PRAYING
Loehr's book documents the astounding results of these experiments, proving not only that prayer is effective, but he also isolated four different types of prayer. He found that to be effective we need to do more than just petition God, or gods. We must at least use our imaginations. Here are the steps:

First of all, use your imagination; to this add how you feel about plants, whatever; then do not be afraid to call on friends you know who are in the realm of spirit. Finally, connect with the divine in an through all things. In summary, use your:

1. Imagination
2. add feeling
3. then ask for spiritual assistance
4. and connect with the divine mind in and through all that is.

The book, The Power of Prayer on Plants, originally published in 1959, by Doubleday, brought Dr. Loehr on a lecture tour that carried him all over the United States, Canada and also to lecture at Cambridge in England. 1969. 127 pages.
=================================================
ABOUT DR.LOEHR http://www.answers.com/Franklin%20Davison%20Loehr


Edited by Revlgking (04/14/07 08:33 PM)

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#20459 - 04/14/07 08:42 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
That work with prayer was totally bogus and has been refuted numerous times in the scientific literature.

For example:
http://ece.colorado.edu/~ecen3070/Spr05Projects.pdf

It should probably also be noted that with cardiac patients, when people prayed for them, they were more likely to die than those who did not received the 'benefit' of prayer.

But heck this is a science forum. Why let science interfere with a good fairy tale.
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#20462 - 04/14/07 09:42 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
This thread is about philosophy, the mother of science. Mother knows best, eh?

BTW, those who died went to heaven; those who lived remained in hell, with the cynics!!! laugh

BEWARE, SOME SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE NOT TO BE TRUSTED.
As the New York Times remind us:
Global Trend: More Science, More Fraud
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/20/scienc...nyt&emc=rss


Edited by Revlgking (04/15/07 03:02 AM)

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#20465 - 04/15/07 02:59 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Wolfman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Pago Pago, American Samoa
DA, I wouldn't knee-jerk write-off the possibility that Prayer could influence the growth of plants. I grew up on a vegetable farm, and my Dad often experimented with his crops. One year we planted our spices in a North-South orientation. Everything else was planted East-West. Planting east-west gave us shorter, more manageable rows. My dad wanted to see if the fact that the plants were growing in each others shade would slow their growth. With herbs and spices, slower growth equals better quality. What we saw came as a surprise. The spices grew faster than ever before. Dad figured that maybe the plants were atuned to the Earth's Magnetic Field. Whatever. The next year we planted everything BUT the spices and herbs North-South. Everything grew faster and was more prolific than ever before, except the spice which slowed down again. We never went back to East-West rowing.

Rev, I just read that your daughter lives in Tofino. Samll World, I've visited there. We had some friends, through Track and Field, who lived in Port Alberni. We flew into Tofino on their private plane. It's literally at the "end of the road on Vancouver Island. Rain, rain and more rain. And cold. It seems to be one of those little enclaves that you come across now and again ( like Ukaiah, California, Far North Queensland, Maui and Kauai) where Hippies have gone to escape "The Man" and drop out of Society. You have my condolences.

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#20466 - 04/15/07 03:31 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Wolfman]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
BTW, serious moral and ethical researchers in the effectiveness of what I called MAP--meditation and affirmative prayer incorporating the use of the imagination--are just as serious about doing it right--replication and all that--as are all good researchers.

Serious researchers are well aware that some kinds of praying--consisting mostly of petitions--are nothing more than wishful thinking. I AM ALL IN FAVOUR of putting this kind of praying to the test.

But research costs money. Anyone willing to put up the money to get it done?

Interestingly, in the well-researched book, Second Opinion--What's Wrong with Canada's Health Care System and How to Fix it (ISBN: 0002156784) Dr. Mirhael Rachlis, Michael and Carol Kushner, point out that over 70% of all medical procedures have never been put to the double-blind testing.

We all need to be aware of the limits of medical science as written about in:
Limits to Medicine: Medical Nemesis - The Expropriation of Health (Paperback) by Ivan Illich (Author)
=====================================


Edited by Revlgking (04/15/07 03:47 AM)

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#20472 - 04/15/07 05:39 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Wolfman]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Wolfman
One year we planted our spices in a North-South orientation. Everything else was planted East-West. Planting east-west gave us shorter, more manageable rows. My dad wanted to see if the fact that the plants were growing in each others shade would slow their growth. With herbs and spices, slower growth equals better quality. What we saw came as a surprise. The spices grew faster than ever before. Dad figured that maybe the plants were atuned to the Earth's Magnetic Field.

Plants use red light more efficiently than blue light, so here's another theory: in a north-south row orientation they receive more red light when the sun is lower in the sky.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#20474 - 04/15/07 09:21 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: redewenur]
Wolfman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Pago Pago, American Samoa
Excellent observation, Ready, I never made that connection. We lived just south of Vancouver, extremely long sunrises and sunsets at that lattitude, a lot of "filtered" sunlight.
My Dad is an ethnic Gypsy, I always thought that "Magnetic Field" hypothesis struck of the Supernatural.

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#20485 - 04/15/07 01:41 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Wolfman]
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Your assumption is incorrect.

The fact that the light seems redder does not mean there is more red light than in the noon day sun. It means there is a lot less yellow, green, blue, and violet.

And a lot less red too for that matter.
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DA Morgan

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#20488 - 04/15/07 01:48 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
As illustrated by the above useful dialogue, what I call MAP--meditation and affirmative prayer incorporating the use of the imagination, even when it is not formalized, can result in all kinds of helpful information. MAP is an attitude, not dogma or ritual. smile


Edited by Revlgking (04/15/07 01:51 PM)
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#20490 - 04/15/07 01:55 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: DA Morgan]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
My post: "in a north-south row orientation they receive more red light when the sun is lower in the sky."

DA: Your assumption is incorrect...The fact that the light seems redder does not mean there is more red light than in the noon day sun. It means there is a lot less yellow, green, blue, and violet."

Nothing wrong with my assumption, only my ambiguous wording. Let me rephrase to make my meaning clear. My meaning is that, due to the north-south row orientation, each plant receives increased exposure to light during the early and late hours of daylight, and that the extra light, although of lower energy due Rayleigh scattering/filtration, retains the longer wavelengths by which photosynthesis is most efficient.

Better? <g>
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"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#20494 - 04/15/07 04:58 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
revlgking wrote:
"can result in all kinds of helpful information"

Which obviously explains why those people that engage in this activity have been demonstrated to be better, happier, and healthier people than those who don't by peer reviewed research studies.

Care to enlighten us with references:
University, Author, Journal, Volume, and Page?

Or is this just more woo-woo feel-good follow-the-leader tooth fairy fluff?
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DA Morgan

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#20496 - 04/15/07 05:02 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: DA Morgan]
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
redewenur:

Much. <g>
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DA Morgan

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#20503 - 04/15/07 10:27 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
I repeat: MAP--meditation and affirmitive prayer--is an attitude, not a dogma, or a ritual written in stone. One will not find much about this in professional journals. I wonder why.

BTW, what are we to make of it when posters write that a concept is to be thought of as so much, "woo-woo feel-good follow-the-leader tooth fairy fluff?"

Is this meant to be serious and sarcastic ridicule? Or, when they have little else to do, is this just a way for simple, and forgiveable, minds to have a little fun? If the latter, I understand, and forgive. smile



Edited by Revlgking (04/15/07 10:33 PM)

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#20505 - 04/15/07 11:08 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
revlgking wrote yet again:
"is an attitude, not a dogma"

So is a smile on your face.

The difference is that a smile works and no one asks for financial donations.

All you have ever posted here is feel-good new-age woo-woo touchy-feely tooth fairy fluff.

Remember science? You know that topic that scares you more than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick?

Find us a paper in a peer reviewed journal that establishes meditation and affirmative prayer do more than a smile?
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DA Morgan

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#20517 - 04/16/07 05:15 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
I find MAP, in my experience, a very effective and pragmatic--therefore, scientific--way of creating smiles and even laughter. I get no fun whatsoever out of being cynical and playing the soul-destroying, argumentive-ad-hominem game.

And talking about the practical and scientific value of smiles and laughter: I am reminded of the great book ANATOMY OF AN ILLNESS, by Norman Cousins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Cousins

He was a man of FAITH (Unitarian) as well as literature and science
http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/unitarians/cousins.html

Late in life Cousins was diagnosed with what was called ankylosing Spondylitis, related to severe arthritis. His struggle with this illness is detailed in a movie, Anatomy of an Illness, based on his book.

Later, this led him to being appointed as Adjunct Professor of Medical Humanities for the School of Medicine at the University of California, where he taught and did research on the biochemistry of human emotions, which he long-believed were the key to human beings? success in fighting illness.

His great book, HEAD FIRST--The Biology of Hope gives the details of the work he did at UCLA. The real title of the book is :SPIRIT FIRST--The Biology of Faith Hope and Love.

Interestigly, Chapter 12 is about MESMER, HYPNOTISM AND THE POWERS OF THE MIND. He points out that this power can be used destructively. Ignorance of what it is and how it works is especially dangerous. Also of interest: He tells us of Benjamin Franklin's interest in what in his day was called mesmerism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Mesmer

Cousins battled for health on all fronts, including the use of micro-nutrients for the body. In his battle he convinced his doctor, a personal friend, to feed him massive doses of Vitamin C, intervienously, and, according to book, by training himself to laugh.

He wrote a collection of best-selling non-fiction books on illness and healing, as well as a 1980 autobiographical memoir, Human Options: An Autobiographical Notebook.


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#20525 - 04/17/07 12:39 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
revlgking wrote:
"I find MAP, in my experience, a very effective and pragmatic--therefore, scientific--way"

I knew there was a problem and finally you have elucidated it. The problem is that you are misusing the word science.

So let me use this opportunity to educate you as to what the word means in the English language. To do so I will use materials from the University of Rochester: A well respected institute of learning.

You will find the full text at:
http://teacher.pas.rochester.edu/phy_labs/AppendixE/AppendixE.html

After you have read it perhaps you would do us the courtesy of no longer misusing the word.

Thank you.
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DA Morgan

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#20550 - 04/17/07 06:48 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Science. Knowledge of facts and laws arranged in an orderly system. The search for truth. Skill, technique. From the Latin, scire, to know. (World Book Dictionary)

Yes, I read that site from rochester, long ago.
Epistimology. Yes, quite a study. Not sure that I understand all the details. Therefore, I offer a disclaimer:

I don't claim to be an absolute expert on all such matters, but, IMHO, as I read process philosophy and theology and the work done by A.N. Whitehead, Hartshorne, etc., I was impressed that they began with a rational theory not a dogma and did not base their work on blind faith.

The same is true with practical work of Norman Cousins, Dr. Franklin Loehr (Power of Prayer on Plants) Dr. William Parker and Elaine St. Johns, Prayer Can Change Your Life, and others...all worked in harmony with principles which are basically rational and open to basic rule of research--open to questions and challenges.

Is there anything in the work mentioned above that contradicts the principles of science?

I agree that there are many things of which I am ignorant, but
why do I have the kind of feeling that I am being patronized; that someone is trying to set me up, here, and to make it appear that I am stupid?

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G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#20559 - 04/17/07 11:57 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
revlgking wrote:
"I agree that there are many things of which I am ignorant, but
why do I have the kind of feeling that I am being patronized;"

I don't know. Could it be that you have yet to discern the difference between the posts of almost everyone else here, with real science related content, and what you post which is fluff?

Not a single person on this forum knew you, or anything about you, when you first showed up. Every impression we have of you is one you have generated. Take responsibility for what you have done and continue to do. It is the first step toward healing yourself.
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DA Morgan

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#20567 - 04/17/07 06:12 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
DA writes and offers:
Quote:
It is the first step toward healing yourself.

Thanks for your concern, DA. Are we into diagnosis, now? By internet? Interesting. What are the fees? BTW, the FLF does not charge fees.

DA, I realize that you are busy in the real SCIENCE part of the forum, but I do hope you will continue--and I am serious--to read and continue your comments in the "Not Quite Science" section of SAGG.

Healthy controversy does make it interesting for readers and boost the ratings, right? Stick around, DA, we need you. However, it would be helpful if you checked your facts before you judged other posters.

QUESTIONS:
Are you still in the work-a-day world? Or, are you re-directed (don't like 'retired') like me?

HARD SCIENCES, SOFT SCIENCES?--I find the following helpful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_science
==========================================
I assume that the hard sciences are like physics, chemistry, mathematics, cybernetics, geography, geology, botany, biology, genetics, nedicine, chiropractics, neurology, geriatrics, gynecology, are REAL sciences. What are some other examples?

Are anthropology, psychology, sociology, political science, and the like, REAL sciences?

What about pneumatology, theology, cosmology?

What are examples of the pseudo-sciences? Astrology? Scientology?
Christian Science?




Edited by Revlgking (04/17/07 07:19 PM)
_________________________
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