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This we need?

How is it on a planet wholly overpopulated there are still people spending time worrying about some poor woman's inability to make things worse?


DA Morgan
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Everyone thinks, "Oh, just one or two won't hurt". Besides our culture pushes the idea that the ultimate fulfilment for a woman is to have a child. Mind you, I suppose many people make money out of the idea.

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So true Dan and Terry.

This will very big business.

How will men feel when we truly are redundant? frown

I can feel my manhood shriveling as I type.

Blacknad.

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We are already truly redundant except for killing the occasional spider. Any male that doesn't realize that is going to have a remarkably unhappy time.

1000 women need only one man ... and he isn't either of us. <g>


DA Morgan
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I kill spiders too!! So prepare for total redundance DA!

Am I being unduly emotional when I say this makes me feel sick---or at least very very uneasy? How do you explain to the child that it is the product of a female egg and a bit of female bone marrow from the forearm, I think it was?

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Do you think the children resulting from in vitro fertilization are somehow damaged by the fact that they weren't the result of an accident in the back seat of a car by two slightly inebriated 20 year olds?

Children accept what is normal.

I've little doubt the child of Anna Nicole Smith will some day, upon learning of its origins, be a strong advocate for a less "natural" parentage (a mother dead from a drug overdose, a father on the birth certificate who wasn't, etc.)


DA Morgan
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DA wrote: Children accept what is normal

What part of cloning a sperm from bone marrow tissue is normal?

Of course children survive appalling adult behaviour in spite of their parents. I just feel very sorry for this potential little girl with only one parent, her mother, involved in her 'begatting'.

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Normal is whatever children are told by their parents is normal.

Normal in Seattle is not normal in Lesotho.
Normal in Yellow Knife is not normal in Fiji.
Normal in 1740 was not normal in 1940.
And what is normal in 2007 won't be normal in 2107.

Normal is that which is accepted by most people.

There was a time, not very long ago, when slavery was considered normal.


DA Morgan
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Originally Posted By: DA Morgan
Normal is whatever children are told by their parents is normal.

>..........Normal is that which is accepted by most people.



I dont understand what all the fuss is about?

If women want a healthy baby they wont be making their own Sperm in a hurry.
I thought the sex chromosome in a male was XY
Women dont have a Y

Saved by the bell

Mike Kremer


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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.


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Don't understand why but the lack of Y was not going to be a problem according to the article I read, but the resulting child would have to be female.

When it comes to getting babies normal IS the same in Lesotho, Sierra Leone, Denmark and ANYWHERE, and because we are mammalian animals it is the same for dogs, cats, elephants,mice, all of the mammals. You see DA -the boy animal and the girl animal have this very special way of making little animals, normally, and it does not involve the use of bone marrow from the arm.

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Originally Posted By: Ellis
...but the resulting child would have to be female.

Yes, since only the male gonads produce gametes containing the Y chromosome, one might reasonably assume that if stem cells of females can be developed into male gametes, then the result could only be XX, females only - unless there's a way around that.


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Ellis wrote:
"You see DA -the boy animal and the girl animal have this very special way of making little animals, normally"

Wonderful. Go tell that to the thousands of children born of in-vitro fertilization. Tell them they are not normal.

And while you are at it tell that to the kids born of surrogate mothers. Tell them they are not normal either.

I suspect it won't be a pleasant experience.

Medicine in 2007 is not what it was in 1007. And sure won't be the same in 3007 either. It will change. The question is not if ... but when.


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Ellis, I think you're concerned about the process rather than the product. I have no such concerns. Children born by such unconventional means are likely to be the result of a sincere and determined effort to bring about their existence. The same very often cannot be said for children born by conventional means, in which Sigmund Freud's 'pleasure principle' plays a dominant role, and the offspring are all too often a mere byproduct.

As for the product, although the process is modified, the outcome is unquestionably 'normal'. Stgmatization is not only uncalled for, it's also cruel.


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DA-Children born as a result of IVF have the same beginning as all children, They are the result of the joining of a sperm and an egg.

Red- Damn right I'm concerned about the process, it's what makes procreation worthwhile.

This proposal, and that of cloning seems unecessary. I know people who want children have the opportunity now to have them, even in the face of infertility, but the process is not without its problems. We are too many on the planet already, and to me it seems an indulgence to thwart nature as we do. I have a reason for my attitude. As a result of my teaching career in Special Ed I have seem many lovely children with uncertain futures due to problems which sometimes have an origin in medical areas of treament or procedures. I cannot take the consolation that many of their parents do and state it is the will of god, I just feel we need to be sure not to add to their number by our pride in our achievements.

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Ellis: "Red- Damn right I'm concerned about the process, it's what makes procreation worthwhile."

- I wouldn't worry too much; the fair sex don't seem ready to abandon men if they can help it. Seriously, though, you underline what I'm saying - the pleasure of the moment often becomes the only point. As I said, children are too often a mere byproduct. Those who feel the need to resort to artificial procedures do at least show a desire to have a child.

Ellis: "We are too many on the planet already, and to me it seems an indulgence to thwart nature as we do."

- This is not going to make a difference to world population, provided the procedure is made available only to those who cannot bear children 'normally'. A woman having children by artificial means will not have any other children. Why should they be deprived of the opportunity?

- Ellis, perhaps everything from a bandaid, to blood-doning, to a heart transplant could be seen as "thwarting nature"; but how do you differentiate 'natural' from 'unnatural'? Can the activities of human beings be separated from their nature, or are they part of it? Can we say that a finch using a twig to seek out insects is doing what comes naturally, while a human using an endoscope to find a tumour is interfering with nature?


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Ellis wrote:
"Children born as a result of IVF have the same beginning as all children, They are the result of the joining of a sperm and an egg."

And a child would know this how?
By being told by whom?
At what age?
And the child, in a world where this was normal would care why?

The only indication that this child would have that it wasn't normal would be someone such as you trying to make the child uncomfortable.

No different than people making children with dark skin or whose parent is divorced, or who was adopted feel less worthy. You might want to consider your attitude as being nothing more than pre-prejudice.


DA Morgan
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We already know that the ladies make better pilots, mountain climbers, astronauts and, in general, hold up better under conditions of physical and/or emotional duress. Hmmm, what's left?

A beast of burden or object of sexual entertainment,,, I feel so dirty;)

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Anyone wishing to understand, a bit better, what reality looks like might want to spend some time considering the value of a male black widow spider or praying mantis in the reproductive process.

If males want to have value in the future ... they are going need to figure out what it is.

1. Bread winner? Gone.
2. Ditch digger? Gone.
3. Mighty hunter? Gone.
4. Fearless Warrior? Likely not required if other men aren't a threat.

An overabundance of testosterone had value 500,000 and 50,000 years ago. That value is rapidly diminishing and perhaps is just an anachronism.


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I am actually female Red.

The thing that I notice in responses to this topic is that there is a huge difference between male and female attitude to this. In the 60s for the first time ever women were able to reliably control their fertility, this was a huge change in male/female relationships that remains unremarked on even now. Sex for women is now risk free (I'm talking about pregnancy here!) Or is it? With every sexual act a woman knows that while her fertility lasts (until 50 ish), even if she uses contraception, there is always a remote chance of pregnancy. Women have always had to face up to ethical and moral situations that men often know nothing about!! You see it is possible for men to be the parent of a child and know nothing about its existence-- that is absolutely not possible for a woman. This naturally colours the way women feel about this sort of research.

DA-- You are so right. There is no need now for men apparently- not while women have arms! But cheer up. All women have a place in their lives for a loving supportive partner--and the majority of us, for one reason or another prefer to have that person father our children, and help us raise a family together. I think that will always be so. But you blokes are going to have to work a little at it, because we no longer have to make it easy for you!

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