Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Not-Quite-Science Forum Evidence for God

I forgot, you wrote, "I do not want to convince atheists"

I was confused in this because previously you had written "In what way can we demonstrate to skeptics that "God" is truly omnipotent, loving, compassionate and a beacon of light in a dark world? "

Admittedly "demonstrate" and "convince" are not the same words, but as "demonstrate" can mean "show" or "prove" ... if you have a proof that the other side accepts as sound, you are will probably convince them. It's seems a bit like verbal trickery to cavil given the context.

Regarding Revlgking directed towards me:
SIN: Sin can refer to a broad category. It is both conscious and sub-conscious, I think. Suffering is brought forth by it. And all are under its spell. It is why we are imperfect beings. I will not say more due to moral and ethical debates that would open from my answer, for this, in fact, this is a scientific discussion.

Yes, I do believe that God is sovereign over His creation. He did allow sin, yes, although not in that definition. For His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts our thoughts, as it says. There were two prominentpeople in history that tried to distance the Creator from His creation: John Milton, the writer of Paradise Lost, and Darwin (there are obviously others). In fact, Darwin brought aboard a copy of Paradise Lost aboard the HMS Beagle, on his journey to the Galapagos (Cornelius Hunter; Darwin?s God, I forget the page). They both picture a Creator independent of His creation, therefore not bringing the guilt of this degraded society upon Him; although in two different ways.
Again, my opinion is that He let sin enter, out of necessity. True love requires a choice. By giving them a temporary -this life is barely a blink on the geological clock- pain and suffering, they will eventually inherit an eternal world of blamelessness.

I said that I am somewhat of a universalist. In that different people would find different ways of peace. Now I would not agree w/ the Comparative Religions 101 teacher on this, but I am somewhat of one. Similar to C.S. Lewis, where in the Last Battle, he records Aslan coming to a man named Emereth (or is it Emeth, I forget exactly), who worshipped Tash, who was his culture?s god (Tash turned out to be similar to the Devil). Because Emerth never knew Aslan, but though that Tash was the true god, Aslan let him enter the doorway, into the ?heaven? of Narnia. Now do I think that all religions lead to God? No, but some people who aren?t Christians, as well as all denominations could. Through that, I am somewhat of a universalist, but not too much of one.

Religion; by that I mean people who believe that there is a God, and that He is in control of their lives. Right off the bat, I would consider some ?religions? religions. If those who believe in God do, then they should not be criticized of believing false information, and that ?there is no God!? (yes, I know that not all evolutionist are atheists, but for those who are). Most -but not all, mind you- religious people live moral and ethical lives. (Although you do hear of tele-evangelists living posh lifestyles, and priests accused of embalmment, but that is a select few, what you don?t hear about in the news is those who don?t, which far outnumber them). For me, religion sustains me, and without it, I would probably be living an immoral life; that is the truth, because I would have no basis for my life.

God is omnipotent, and omnipresent, and all-loving. There is probably no ?scientific? way to prove that. The only way I would think such a thing, is because
1. I find no other way (which in itself is not a valid argument)
2. That is what my heart tells me (again, not a valid argument)
3. I know that this world is but a temporal place
4. When I worship my God, I find comfort (again, not a rational argument)
5. He has been good to me, even given me the opportunity to share His actions to you
6. Morally, it would seem plausible.
7. It creates a natural order to this universe. He controls everything, form the ticking of the clock, to flight 93?s trajectory.
8. How else would I be here, without Someone to create me? For we know that every building has a builder, but the builder of all things is God (Hebrews 3, I think)
9. Through this, I know that my Redeemer lives
10. If the universe has no meaning, then why would we think that we could? (think hard about that; at first glance, that would seem to make no sense whatsoever)
11. What keeps every atom in line and in place?
12. Rationally, it is the only logical choice
I could probably name 100, but I have to write a Spanish essay right now, so I have to cut it short. My reasoning is of rationally and irrationaly, there would be a Creator.

Tim,


Some of those would put up that a good argument. One other i would like to add -or rather, put up as an idea- is, where did the idea of a God(s) come from?

Thinker. My guess would be the idea of gods developed during the early Upper Paleoloithic as as the improved hunting technology spread and large animals died out. It became advantageous to combine into larger groups than just small family bands. In other words it helped organise society. Still used for that purpose, or to influence large elements in society to support particular political programs.

Tim wrote:
"Sin can refer to a broad category. It is both conscious and sub-conscious, I think. Suffering is brought forth by it. And all are under its spell. It is why we are imperfect beings."

To quote H.L. Mencken "Morality is the theory that every human act must either be right or wrong, and that 99% of them are wrong."

If you are an adult, or hope to soon be one, you need to get over blaming things on the devil, or evil, or the number 666, or your subconscious, or the inhalation of bad vapours.

To quote Hypatia: "Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fancies. To teach superstitions as truths is a most terrible thing. The child mind accepts and believes them, and only through great pain and perhaps tragedy
can he be in after years relieved of them. In fact, men will fight for a superstition quite as quickly as for a living truth --- often more so, since a superstition is so intangible you cannot get at it to refute it, but truth is a point of view, and so is changeable."

If you have personal demons see a psychologist or your family physician. If you are perfectly normal then it is time to give up the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

Tim, DA M's post makes several good points. Think about them, deeply.

The following site has a lot of information about the origins of religion. Take a look:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_theory1.htm

The main page is at http://www.religioustolerance.org/aboutus.htm

BTW, simply doing a google using the topic "origin of religions" brings up a ton of information.

Good luck with your studies.

did i ever blame "the devil, or evil, or the number 666, or your subconscious, or the inhalation of bad vapours"? as DAM thinks I did? i must not have made myself clear.
what i was saying, was that it is each and every one of our faults. man cannot be expected to make right choices all the time. he fails. we all do; have you ever failed in your life? made a bad desiscion? thats what i thought. we are all under the curse, and are in a fallen -and sad- state. DA's quote by Mencken, i agree 100% with (or is it 99?).
i will take this chance, to ask all of you here:
1. DO YOU BELEIVE IN A GOD?
2. IF YOU DO, IS HE OMNIPOTENT? OMNIPRESENT? ETC.?
3. IF YOU DONT, THEN WHY?
4. IF YOU ARE NOT SURE, THEN WHAT WOULD CONVINCE YOU?
5. GOD LONGS FOR HIS CHILDREN TO COME BACK TO HIM, LAY DOWN THEIR PRIDE, AND BECOME HIS PRODIGAL SONS, AND TASTE OF HIS GOODNESS; FOR WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN CREATED FOR, IS TO WORSHIP HIM

Tim ( know I should ignore this but here goes)

In answer to (1)....NO.

So the other questions not relevant.

Tim: Perhaps you have noticed? I write "G?D" as my translation of the Hebrew Elohim, which, BTW, is the plural form. The singular is Eloh (The highest Power). The Arabic form is Allah. The Greek form is Theos (the highest idea). Every language has it own form. Our word is related to the German, Gott.

Modern Orthodox Jews use G-d. It is my opinion that our word "God"--or as I prefer G?D--simply means the "highest good". For example, "goodbye" is Old English. It is a contraction of "God be with you". The French say adieu--to God. The Spanish say adeos--also via con deos, go with God.

Now, let me ask you: How do you conceive of God.
Do you think of God as an objective being?
Do you think of Him as a male, human-like being with eyes, ears, arms,legs and bodily organs like us human beings? One who lives in a certain place in outer space?

MY BELIEF, AS BEST AS I CAN STATE IT IS AS FOLLOWS
I believe in G?D as--the one, powerful and highest good idea, which is total, universal and all-encompassing, beyond my mind to conceive in any objective form. G?D, for me, is not confined to space, time or gravity. In my humble opinion, G?D IS space, time and gravity--physically speaking.

Like orthodox Jews, I refuse to objectify G?D, mentally, because that, for me, means making of G?D an idol, for bidden in Deuteronomy and Exodus. How do you respond to this comment?

Interestingly, the Hebrew word for "God" in Genesis 2:4, which we translate "Lord God" is not Elohim, it is Yahweh, which literally means, I AM WHO I AM AND WHO WILL BE. It is the essence of the verb "to Be"

To Orthodox Jews, it is a mysterious concept which they refuse to pronounce, to write and to concretize.

From the site on origins of religion mentioned by the Rev:

"However there is considerable historical evidence from ancient times that religions in the area from India to the Middle East shared many religious beliefs."

The reason for this is mind-numbingly obvious. Religions evolve like everything else. They are human constructs and ideas move around, just like genes. For example Buddha and Pythagoras were virtually contemporaries. The connection was presumably via the Persian Empire. They lived at opposite ends. That there are two completely different words for god in the Old Testament shows that the Hebrew religion was itself a hybrid.

Anyway, I stand by my posting earlier regarding the origin of religion in the early Upper Paleolithic. It evolved to explain the unknown and a priesthood that could make a comfortable living by hoodwinking the population was a natural development. Religions needn't have anything to do with reality. In fact usually the less so the better. All the easier for the priesthood to claim the single route of communication to whatever higher power they have convinced the population to believe in.

Terry, I presume that you and I can agree that people who philosophize about the nature and value of religion--include me in as one of them, and, I assume, you too--also evolve.

I like the cliches about the dougnut and the glass that is half full of water: Some of us evolve to pay attention to the delicious doughnut. We enjoy its taste treat and that we have a half glass of water to wash it down; others concentrate on the hole and the half-empty glass. What is the focus of your attention?

BTW, I just remembered another metaphor for G?D: THE SOURCE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Source_(novel)
http://www.hobotraveler.com/103br_thesource.shtml

Tim asks:
"did i ever blame "the devil, or evil, or the number 666, or your subconscious, or the inhalation of bad vapours"? as DAM thinks I did?"

Yes you did. You believe in things for which you've not a shred of supporting evidence. That is precisely the same thing.

Whether you cloak it as a deity or via some contrivance such as "?" it is still the same thing. They are all just forms of the invisible purple rhinoceros.

There is no such thing as evil.
There are only things you don't like.
Time to get over it and accept the universe as it is.

DAM writes, "There is no such thing as evil."
That is the farthest thing from the truth that i have ever heard!
Yes, there is such thing as evil: moral evil.
There are many philosophers who would agree with me, now of course there are many who dont, including Nietszhe (or however his name is spelt)
and of course i accept the universe as how it is: under the hand of the Creator and divine Watchmaker.
let me ask you this:
have you ever done something that you knew was wrong? but did it anyways? how did you feel after-wards? did you feel something telling you not to do it, but didnt listen? (like jimmity cricket). that is your conscious. why would you have such a thing if you are a far-distant relative to a rat? (very far off, but nevertheless related in some way, as evolutionists would beleive, unless that is they beleive in seperate macro-evolution trees, i can never keep up with such things)

Tim, DA said, "There is no such thing as evil". In that sentence, the word 'evil' is a noun. I think, therefore, that DA denies the existence of evil - as a noun - in the sense it being a cosmic force (do correct me if I'm wrong, DA). The use of ?evil? as an adjective is, of course, merely synonymous with 'morally bad', 'wicked' or ?malicious?. I would suggest that the word does, however, tend to confer a religious context, and is probably used far more commonly by those who are religious than by those who aren't, the latter very often preferring to use an alternative word.

The existence of EVIL makes as much sense as going to war against an an emotion ie TERROR.

TIM, ABOUT NIETZSCHE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche
BTW, fellow posters, for the next 16 days, my wife an I will be on a vacation in sunny and warm (we hope) Florida. Today, it is sunny in Toronto, but would you believe the temperature was -32 C. That is below zero on the old F scale. For March, that is very low.

TREAT EACH OTHER WITH TLC WHILE I AM AWAY, OKAY?

TIM, you did not answer my question about how you conceptualize God. For example, how would you explain the concept of God to children who are still in the stage where they still believe that Santa Claus is a real person?

Interestingly, Nietzsche was the son of an Evangelical Christian minister. So were others of his family. For example, his grandparent and uncles.

Also, Charles Darwin took his only degree, in theology, from Cambridge. He actually intended to be a minister. He, too, came from a family with lots of clergy in it. His grandfather was a well respected minister and intellect.
I don't think that Darwin ever said that he was an atheist, but he sure came to quite a different view than the literal stories--there are two--in the Bible. He probably also had a different concept of God.

If God is in personal control of all things, why would he arrange things as just stated?

How come much of the world is under the control of those who are either stupid, or outright evil--greedy, oppressive and power hungry?

USING MY FREE WILL
Doing sincere experiments in prayer, I have asked God, more than once, "Reveal to me, O God, how you would like all believers, like me, to think of you?" I also used and still practice meditation.

I heard no real answer telling me to go back to the traditional way.

All I get is the intuition to search deeper and to be open to progressive possibilities such as are found in: http://www.progressivechristianity.ca/

It was after some deep meditation that I discovered progressinve thinkers like Bisop John Shelby Spong, former Dominican priest Matthew Fox, etc. We now have a church-- http://www.pathwayschurch.ca --
in my area.
It follows this progressive model.
My mediations also led me to speak of God as I do in my signature. How come?

Philosophy is as useful to humanity as feathers on a fish. I personally enjoy philosophy as an intellectual exercise but is a discussion about nothing of substance. Were it otherwise ... one could test a correct philosophy from an incorrect one. And at least one philosophical issue would have been resolved completely as has been the melting point of water or the question of how far away the moon is.

Tim, Ellis is correct as is red, there is no such thing as evil: Let me prove it to you.

Is it evil to lie? Always?
Is it evil to kill someone? Always?
Is it evil to steal something? Always?

And the answer is clearly, unless you are younger than 13 or brainwashed, not always.

So what we lie about, who we kill, and when and what we steal is situational. Evil is truly ONLY in the eye of the beholder and thus, objectively, does not exist.

What is evil to me, Darfur, is clearly not evil to the rulers of the Sudan. What is evil to me, pumping carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, is clearly not evil to Exxon Mobil. What is evil to me, self-serving arrogant condescending posters at SAGG, is clearly not evil to them. And what is evil to me, preachers and self-annointed religious zealots (of any persuasion) brainwashing children, is clearly not evil to the majority of people on this planet.

Again, Tim, evil does not exist.

So now, no doubt, you think me as evil as I think the people who have brain washed you about religion. Consider that for a moment.

Tim wrote:

"Yes, there is such thing as evil:"

Now, presuming you are refering to evil in the sense Redewenur suggested you were, we can actually easily find the origin of the concept. The idea there were two conflicting supernatural forces begins, as far as we know, with the Zoroastrians. They believed the forces "Good" (light and the truth) and "Evil" (darkness and the lie) were headed for a great final battle.
The idea was carried by King Cyrus into Babylon and from there was adopted by the Jews. It came into Christianity from them.

The Rev asked:

"how would you explain the concept of God to children who are still in the stage where they still believe that Santa Claus is a real person?"

I'm sure there are many people who have contributed to this thread who would suggest the two ideas are at the same level.

I agree TNZ. There is almost no difference between telling children stories about the Eastern Bunny or the Tooth Fairy and telling them about a god or gods.

The only difference is that the Eastern Bunny never drowned all of the children on the planet (except one family's). The Tooth Fairy never murdered every first-born child in an entire country. And Santa Claus never sat back and watched his son nailed to a cross.

There is no crime I can think of substantially worse than the child abuse of threatening children with eternal torture to gain their compliance. That crime has kept humanity from growing up and behaving in a mature manner for millenniums.

What is implicit in the brain washing Tim has been subjected to is that there is someone in his life who will tell him what is evil and what is not. What is important to the self-anointed is power and control.

Hi Dan.

Is it evil to be in sound mind and rape a two year old child? Always?

Blacknad