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#18279 - 02/20/07 10:10 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
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Rede: Let me clarify that I do not mind anyone knowing that I am Lindsay G. King--anyone is free to google on my name. You will come up with some basic information about me: I am a retired--I prefer being called "re-directed"--minister of the United Church of Canada--more interested in deeds than creeds. I was born in 1930.

In 1953, I became an ordained minister. That is, I was ordained to be a servant, of people. Now, don't laugh! I am serious. Well, I will allow you to laugh, if you agree to explain to me, why?

Currently (since 1994), I am living off a BIG FAT pension equal to less than that of a school teacher, police officer, fireman, etc. During what is left of my life, I plan to enjoy myself writing, counseling (I am involved in three weekly programs) painting and whatever comes along. Let me know if I can be of help.

BTW, feel free to call me LGK, Rev, Linds, whatever.

Do I take it that you DO accept the category of spirituality?
Do you think of yourself as a "spiritual" being?
If so, what do you think, believe, hope will happen when you die, physically?

Meanwhile, keep in mind that when I use the symbol G?D, I am not thinking of G?D as a person, a persn like you and I. If you really want to know what I think, you will have to ask me.

_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18340 - 02/23/07 04:03 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
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Yes, I do have a personal, private concept of 'spirituality' and experience it as 'real'.
I do think of myself as a spiritual being, but not in any sense that distinguishes me from any other being in the universe.
One observes that bodies decompose after death. What happens to me after death is of no consequence whatever. My death will not subtract one iota from ***.
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"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#18341 - 02/23/07 04:32 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
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Red'E' when UR writes
Originally Posted By: redewenur
Yes,...'spirituality' and experience it as 'real'.
I do think of myself as a spiritual being...one observes that bodies decompose after death. What happens to me after death is of no consequence whatever. My death will not subtract one iota from ***.
What does this '***' symbolize?
It would be interesting to know the story of what led you to this not-very-specific kind of belief. It poses so many questions. For example, I would be interested in knowing what you really mean when you use the word 'spiritual'. How does being spiritual affect our moral and ethical behaviour?


Edited by Revlgking (02/23/07 04:55 PM)

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#18342 - 02/23/07 04:40 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Rev, I think that you can best answer those questions based on your own intuitions.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#18344 - 02/23/07 06:33 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
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Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
I prefer chatting, not reading minds. smile
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18345 - 02/23/07 07:14 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
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I credit you with persistence, Rev, but it's an inner experience; it's not my mind that I ask you to read, but your own. That's where the answers lie.

In this case, telepathy would be useful but chatting will not.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#18363 - 02/23/07 11:07 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Red 'E', I enjoy playing fun games, now and then, but I hasten to suggest that I feel that this thread, "Evidence for God", is not the place for such games. smile

G?D, properly defined
Meanwhile, compared with the evidence that there is NO G?D--properly defined--the evidence for G?D, properly defined, abounds.

LET OTHERS THINK FOR THEMSELVES, BUT FOR ME
I prove the reality of G?D for me, as I understand G?D, as follows:

LET THERE BE LIGHT
which Genesis tells us helped bring order out of chaos.
G?D is the light (of many colours); I experience light as a fact.
G?D is sound (many sounds). I feel and enjoy the positive effects of all that beautiful sounds.
G?D is all philosophy. This means that
G?D is all science (knowledge, wisdom and truth).
As such. I experience and enjoy all of them. Philosophy and science lead to
G?D as art.
Thus I enjoy all the creative arts, including the art of living.

Getting practical:
G?D is Spirit (breath), so I breathe.
G?D is the one, powerful and good idea, in which I live, move and have my being.
Thus I think positive and powerful thoughts.
G?D is Love, so I love.

Humbly, I ask atheists: What do you have to offer?
My senses are alert to receive your answers, really.

If you have NO-THING to offer, I admire your FAITH!!!

But I refuse to embrace your faith, until you come up with better evidence, and value, than you now have.

BTW, if your battle is against superstition, false religious faith, I agree to join you.

_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18371 - 02/24/07 03:58 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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With no intention of being insulting ...
G?D is feces, so I defecate.
G?D is stupidity, so I ramble.
G?D is hate, so I hate.

G?D is everything that exists.
Why use a loaded term like G?D to describe what already has a name?

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#18375 - 02/24/07 07:23 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Revlgking Offline
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Thanks for your insight. G?D is also in pain, suffering and crucifixion--redeeming them. Do you write as any kind of theist? Or an atheist? Perhaps you are an agnostic--a word coined by Julian Huxley.

Ask Orthodox Jews why they write G-d. I have. Their answer makes sense to me. The word I coined suits my purposes. I don't know of any law which prohibits this. Others are free to use, or not use it, as they wish. smile
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18376 - 02/24/07 07:33 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Revlgking said: "ReRed 'E', I enjoy playing fun games, now and then, but I hasten to suggest that I feel that this thread, "Evidence for God", is not the place for such games."

How offensive. Our dialogue is closed.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#18385 - 02/24/07 08:13 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: redewenur]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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G?d is everything that exists or G?d is everything that is good? Is everything good? Is this the best of all possible universes?

Do orthodox jews share your view that G?d is everything?

I'm not saying that you can't coin, borrow, or otherwise use whatever term you wish. What I don't understand is what is the value of it? Typically words are used to clarify communication and understanding. I do not see how G?D clarifies either.

I consider myself an agnostic of the atheist persuasion. I believe that the question of god's existence is unanswerable, EXCEPT BY DIRECT REVELATION from that god and even then the person to whom this knowledge is revealed cannot discern his knowledge from insanity. This is one of several reasons I think the entire concept of God is useless. In all my actions I assume there is no god, not because I'm trying to reject a god, but simply because I cannot do otherwise.

Neither my opinion nor yours is actually science.

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#18386 - 02/24/07 09:36 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Thanks TFF! Excellent comments for a dialogue as you ask
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
G?D is everything that exists? Or G?D is everything that is good? Is everything good? Is this the best of all possible universes?
In my humble opinion (IMHO), yes, this IS the best of all possible universes. In addition, each one of us has a personal share in creating it. IMHO, collectively speaking, we are G?D

You ask, "Do orthodox jews share your view that G?D is everything?"

It is my understanding that Orthodox Jews think of G-d as ineffable--that is, beyond objectification. Orthodox Jews abhor mental idolatry--that is, thinking of G-d in any kind of mental form.

TFF, you ask, wisely
Quote:
I'm not saying that you can't coin, borrow, or otherwise use whatever term you wish. What I don't understand is what is the value of it?
It may not have value to you, yet. But if you have the patience to listen, the word 'G?D' has value to me.

"In what way?" you may ask. Because it expresses a new theological concept, which is as follows:

G?D, for me, symbolizes, and includes, ALL that is objective and subjective--total, universal and all-encompassing.

For me, G?D is not a super or personal being--one called God--separate and apart from persons and the cosmos. The physical cosmos, including us personal beings, has its being within G?D--the eternal and the infinite--which is beyond anything I can comprehend.

You write
Quote:
Typically, words are used to clarify communication and understanding. I do not see how G?D clarifies either.
If you are willing to keep an open mind, give me time to explain what I really mean.

Thanks for honestly stating
Quote:
I consider myself an agnostic, of the atheist persuasion. I believe that the question of god's existence is unanswerable, EXCEPT BY DIRECT REVELATION, from that god, and even then the person to whom this knowledge is revealed cannot discern his knowledge from insanity.

This is one of several reasons I think the entire concept of God is useless. In all my actions I assume there is no god--not because I'm trying to reject a god--but simply because I cannot do otherwise.

Neither my opinion nor yours is actually science.
I agree. However, I want to say more in answer to your sincere comments.

Keep in mind that I write as one who was an agnostic, if not an atheist. Also, keep in mind that I am not talking about A god, or even A god called God.

G?D is not a being of any kind
G?D is the symbol I use to designate all that we know and experience, with the help of philosophy, science, and the arts, in the now. I also use it to designate all that we hope to know as we process into the future. I do not believe in a God of dogma and ritual. I experience G?D in toto, now, in all that I morally and ethically do.

G?D is totally, and absolutely, beyond all forms of sectarianism.

As the Gospel of St. John puts it: God is Spirit; God is Love, NOW.


Edited by Revlgking (02/24/07 10:57 PM)

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#18391 - 02/24/07 11:09 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
BTW, it is a pleasure to dialogue with an atheist who I perceive to be one who is moral, ethical, loving and more interested in finding that which is truly of social value than in being self-righteously correct.

Sure I want to be free to express what I believe, at this point. But Feel free to correct me if I try to impose my beliefs on you or others.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18400 - 02/25/07 05:33 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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G?d is all that we know and experience, but you seem to apply it to only the good things, e.g. "God is love." Is God also hate? Is god suffering?

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#18412 - 02/25/07 08:03 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: redewenur]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Lindsay you write:

"LET THERE BE LIGHT
which Genesis tells us helped bring order out of chaos."

Now this tells me that your theology is fundamentally Christian. Your God is Old testament. You may have studied other religions but you have trouble escaping your upbringing, as we all do.

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#18413 - 02/25/07 02:16 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
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Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
G?d is all that we know and experience, but you seem to apply it to only the good things, e.g. "God is love." Is God also hate? Is god suffering?
Think of a doughnut. Without the hole there is no doughnut; but I focus on the food, not the hole. smile

G?D in us, is that which enables us to transform the holes of hatred into loving food; that which helps us redeem suffering.

I prefer not to concretize the concept of G?D at all, by simply saying G?D is...whatever makes for good--from which we get our word God. My special word, G?D, helps me with this.

BTW, when we say "goodbye" it means, "God be with you". "Adieu" in French=to God. It is "adeo" in Italian, "adeos" in Spanish. The Spanish often say, "Via con Deos"=go with God.

Ask a fundamentalist Christian if he actually thinks of God as a white human-like being with human-like limbs and organs. Most will say, "No". Then they will go on to talk about the mystery of the personhood of God.


Edited by Revlgking (02/25/07 02:21 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18418 - 02/25/07 06:20 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
Now this tells me that your theology is fundamentally Christian. Your God is Old testament. You may have studied other religions but you have trouble escaping your upbringing, as we all do." Terry
Terry, Genesis, is part of the Jewish scriptures. I respectfully use it as such. When I preached, regularly, I often quoted from outside the Bible. I make no conscious attempt to escape...I do make an attempt to grow. This is why I like using new terms, like G?D.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18422 - 02/25/07 09:41 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
Wolfman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Pago Pago, American Samoa
Many years ago I saw Sufi Dervishes spinning in the Grand Bazaar in Tehran. I later learned that this was a form of meditation, that mild anoxia brought on by the physical exhaustion of the spinning caused them to have "visions". Intigued, I approached a cult of Sufis in a remote area of British Columbia. I filled in all the paperwork needed to join the cult, but was rejected. I clearly remember the Guru saying, "Sorry, Wolfman, but you just don't have enough Worldly Wealth" to renounce."

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#18432 - 02/26/07 03:38 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Wolfman]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Wolfman. I wonder if you have hit on something there?

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#18452 - 02/26/07 08:30 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: terrytnewzealand]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Revlgking, I've reconsidered your position, and can understand how it may occur that you take my posts for a foolish game. Since I cannot think of anything else to contribute that might not be misconstrued as game-playing, here's a quote from Freeman Dyson that comes as close as I can find to my own view. It may cast some light on my earlier comments:

"I do not make any clear distinction between mind and God. God is what mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scale of our comprehension..."

Freeman Dyson, May 16, 2000
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"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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