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#20164 - 04/10/07 03:40 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Wolfman]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Wolfman
...I do agree that the Rev should seek professional help. But then so should anyone who puts blind faith in something like the Bible, the Talmud, the Qur'an, the Bhaggavadagiitta (SP?) or dried chicken bones tossed onto a blanket.

Wolfman, quote one sentence of mine where I recommended that anyone should have BLIND faith in the Bible......

Find anything, yet? Perhaps your imagination causing you problems? smile



Edited by Revlgking (04/10/07 03:55 AM)

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#20171 - 04/10/07 10:33 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Science has a way of making a showing in even the most unlikely places. Have you noticed how this thread appears to be infinitely recursive. Mandlebrot might have saved himself many sleepless nights if he'd had the opportunity to study it.

Revlgking, I'd like to ask a compound question: What do you see as the central purpose of this thread (yes, I'm quite aware of the title)? What are it's other purposes, if any? Do you think it's succeeding in those purposes? Where do you see this thread going (do you see it moving forward and evolving, or simply moving in ever decreasing circles)?
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#20180 - 04/10/07 05:20 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
This thread was created with one and only one purpose in mind and it is serving it well.

It has provided a forum for a lonely old troll to be condescending, to promote a contrived affectation, and to provide a break from watching TV all day.

Intellectual content = 0

And if it dies because people ignore it he will just start another one. Welcome to the synapse-free zone.
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DA Morgan

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#20199 - 04/10/07 09:40 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Okay, I admit it: I am a troll--a Newfy troll--one who enjoys a good feed of brewis and whatever.

Here, I offer my personal thanks to the Rev. DA Morgan (see page one)--the one (hypocrite?) who asked all of you NOT to feed trolls--for providing me with lots of food.

Thanks DA, I find your guff (empty talk) delicious!!! laugh
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#20204 - 04/10/07 09:58 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
Blacknad Offline
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Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
I am not surprised that we go to war. I am not surprised that we inflict all sorts of horrors upon one another.

The stakes are relatively low here, but there is still an incredible amount of conflict.

This site is dedicated to discussing science and is where you would expect to find mature, enlightened, articulate individuals who have a concern with understanding the universe, humanity and improving this world.

But what do we find but cat-fights, squabbles over inanities and disrespectful insults.

If people here cannot get along and show respect, how can we expect anyone to.

SAGG - the human race in Microcosm.

I may be losing hope and becoming more cynical.

Blacknad.

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#20206 - 04/10/07 10:16 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Ready-when-you-are, thanks for your questions.

Such is the kind of food which Newfy trolls really enjoy. smile

You write: "Revlgking, I'd like to ask a compound question:

What do you see as the central purpose of this thread (yes, I'm quite aware of the title)?

A: This is a thread which was started by Tim. I respect his right to answer your question. Because, in my opinion, G?D is self-evident, I have all the proof that I need.

"What are it's other purposes, if any?

A: Again, I say, ask Tim.

"Do you think it's succeeding in those purposes?

A: I have no idea what you mean by 'succeeding". It is sure getting a lot of clicks, eh? smile

"Where do you see this thread going (do you see it moving forward and evolving, or simply moving in ever decreasing circles)?

A: Because I love to dialogue, not just debate, I love it when posters actually contribute something to the topic, not just waste time flaming and demeaning other posters.

BTW, in my opinion, flaming and demeaning other posters just drives potential and serious posters away. Some lurkers find it very difficult to put up with crappy guff. Thus they remain silent, like several of my friends who I have inted to join the frey. Invariably they say: I do not have any interested in being insulted by IDIOTS--their word, not mine.



_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#20209 - 04/10/07 10:34 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Blacknab, you wirte: "This site is dedicated to discussing science..."

A: It is? My understanding is as follows: This section is about "not-quite-science..."

You go on: "...and is where you would expect to find mature, enlightened, articulate individuals who have a concern with understanding the universe, humanity and improving this world."

A: Okay, if you agree to join the team, we will have two, at least.

I will begin by asking:
What evidence, if any, do you have, for, or against, the existence of God?
Are you an atheist?
If yes, why?

_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#20211 - 04/10/07 11:10 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Relgking wrote:
It is? My understanding is as follows: This section is about "not-quite-science..."

There is a difference between not-quite and ZERO!
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DA Morgan

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#20216 - 04/10/07 11:31 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: DA Morgan]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Dan. In response to Tim's statement:

"we do not know the ways of God"

You wrote:

"Sure we do. We know the story of Noah. The story of the Exodus. The story of Armageddon."

What makes you accept that these had anything to do with any God? Especially as you give the impression you don't accept there is no God anyway? The Exodus and Noah almost certainly never even happened. There have been several battles fought at Megiddo and, because it is on a trade route between Mesopotamia and Egypt, there are likely to be more battles there.

From another perspective: Perhaps a motive for the invasion of Iraq by the 'mentalist Christians who control the USA at present was to destroy all the evidence in Mesopotamia that shows the God of the Old Testament had simply evolved from the Mesopotamian ones. Of course there was hybridization with Egyptian ones as well, and Zoroastrians. Perhaps that's why Persia is next on their list. Egypt will be after that.

By the way, I'm still waiting for someone who believes there is a God to tell me why this God should be Jewish.

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#20220 - 04/10/07 11:35 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: terrytnewzealand]
scpg02 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 217
Loc: Sacramento
Quote:
I'm still waiting for someone who believes there is a God to tell me why this God should be Jewish.

He was circumcised.
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#20222 - 04/10/07 11:37 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: terrytnewzealand]
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
TNZ asks:
"What makes you accept that these had anything to do with any God?"

Lets assume they do not. Lets assume that the Torah, New Testament, and Quran do not contain valid descriptions of a deity. Then what you are left with is that you have no description and no information. As weak as these sources are ... they are the only "authoritative" sources.

If you take them away you take away Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam ... the three most important monotheistic religions. Is there anything left? Essentially no.

If you wish to discuss gods (plural) that is quite another matter but the same logic holds. Either the texts are authoritative or we have essentially no information as everything we believe came to us, through culture and/or education, from these texts.
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DA Morgan

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#20224 - 04/10/07 11:41 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: DA Morgan]
Tim Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 192
Loc: California
Wolfman wrote, "But then so should anyone who puts blind faith in something like the Bible, the Talmud, the Qur'an, the Bhaggavadagiitta (SP?) or dried chicken bones tossed onto a blanket."
to me, that is not a rational statement. of course i have faith, but faith is not blind. that is one misunderstanding agnostics (and atheists) have about Christians. our faith is not blind.

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#20229 - 04/10/07 11:49 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: DA Morgan
[quote=DA Morgan]Relgking wrote:
It is? My understanding is as follows: This section is about "not-quite-science..."

There is a difference between not-quite and ZERO!

What is the difference? Elaborate, please!

Questions: Morgan, what are you trying to prove?
I agree that I am a troll, right?

Now, who are you? And what are you trying to prove?

I await your answer?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#20232 - 04/10/07 11:56 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Tim]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Scpg02 wrote:

"He was circumcised."

Ah. So that explains why the only conception of God on this thread is the Jewish one.

Dan wrote:

"As weak as these sources are ... they are the only "authoritative" sources. If you take them away you take away Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam ... the three most important monotheistic religions. Is there anything left? Essentially no."

My point exactly. I maintain the Torah, New Testament, and Quran do not contain valid descriptions of a deity. In fact most of the stories are myth. And yet people criticise those who believe there are many gods. Why should there be only one? The assumption seems to be belief in one is somehow superior to belief in many.

You wrote:

"everything we believe came to us, through culture and/or education, from these texts."

We have been living a lie for years.


Edited by terrytnewzealand (04/11/07 12:08 AM)

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#20238 - 04/11/07 02:12 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: terrytnewzealand]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
We are in agreement TNZ in the sense that I think they contain the only reliable and authoritative accounts of something that does not exist.

Similarly one might say that there is only one authoritative account of the life of Ulysses (Homer's Odyssey) or of Atlantis (Plato's).

TNZ wrote:
"We have been living a lie for years."

Worse yet there are still people ruling countries and growing wealthy pit-mining the myth.
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DA Morgan

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#20240 - 04/11/07 03:24 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Revlgking, thanks for your response to the questions.

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
You write...

What do you see as the central purpose of this thread (yes, I'm quite aware of the title)?

A: This is a thread which was started by Tim. I respect his right to answer your question. Because, in my opinion, G?D is self-evident, I have all the proof that I need.

It appears, then, that for you perhaps it has no purpose.

Originally Posted By: Revlgking

"Do you think it's succeeding in those purposes?

A: I have no idea what you mean by 'succeeding". It is sure getting a lot of clicks, eh? smile

That's reasonable, of course. If you could identify no purpose, then neither could you identify success. As for 'clicks', though, that's hardly an indicator of quality. I can imagine that the lowliest porn sites also get a lot of clicks. Not that I equate the two, but expect you see my point.
___________

Blacknad said: "I am not surprised that we go to war. I am not surprised that we inflict all sorts of horrors upon one another. The stakes are relatively low here, but there is still an incredible amount of conflict...SAGG - the human race in Microcosm"

I do agree that human nature has a track record that bodes ill for the future, but I disagree with "SAGG - the human race in Microcosm". I find that, in discussions throughout the internet, the level of freely expressed aggression is incredible - far more than it would be in a live group discussion. There are sure to be perfectly logical reasons for this, without falling into cynicism. I think some important reasons may be:

- The lack of non verbal communication - body posture, facial expression, voice tone etc.
- The absence of immediate social pressure to maintain ethical standards.
- Our impressions of other 'posters' are based solely upon the words they type.
- Sometimes, what appears to be aggression simply is not. In any debate, it can be a constructive tactic to employ a degree of provocation in order stimulate thought and search for the truth in an issue. This, especially bearing in mind the previous three points, can easily be misunderstood as a personal attack.
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"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#20251 - 04/11/07 05:05 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
redewenur wrote:
"As for 'clicks', though, that's hardly an indicator of quality"

Sure it is. You just define the "quality" porn sites as the ones that get the most clicks.

I think you've made your point eloquently.

Now can we all just let this thread die?
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DA Morgan

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#20252 - 04/11/07 05:25 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: DA Morgan]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Tim-Wouldn't faith HAVE to be blind? The whole point of faith is that it is a blinding, dazzling, emotional experience. You must have this burning conviction in order to truly believe in God. Faith is irrational, unproveable and totally real to those who believe. The description of Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus is a wonderful description of someone overtaken by faith,the scales fell from his eyes! And like many in that situation he became a fanatical believer. This topic is now 24 pages long and we who do not believe cannot shake the conviction of those of you who do. Of course faith is blind, and those of us who do not share it are forced back into arguments that make no dents at all! Such stubborn conviction provokes admiration and perhaps a little envy.

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#20253 - 04/11/07 05:33 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Ellis]
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
The thread that won't die. <g>

Faith is a word used when people use rational arguments to question that being sold to them as true when there is nothing to support the seller's contention. For example:

"This is the best car on the market"
"Tide gets your clothes whiter than white"
"God works in mysterious ways"
"Vote for me I will fix everything wrong in the government"

As Benjamin Franklin wrote in 1758:
"The way to see by Faith is to shut the eyes of Reason."

Or to quote Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain)
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true."
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DA Morgan

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#20255 - 04/11/07 05:50 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: DA Morgan]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Dan wrote:

"Similarly one might say that there is only one authoritative account of the life of Ulysses (Homer's Odyssey) or of Atlantis (Plato's)."

Interesting that the stories credited to Homer are similar in many ways to those of the OT. They also probably date to about the same time, the transition bronze/iron age. As you would probably be aware the name "Dan" appears in both myths. Some archeologists even believe the name refers to the same people. Connections have been made between the Sea People and other Israelite tribes such as Weshesh=Asher, Shekelesh=Isachar and Tjekker=Manasseh, the last on the grounds both groups are named as being in the same place at the same time. So, some Israelite tribes originated outside the region but not from Egypt, from the Mediterranean. There's no way all the tribes descend from someone called Abraham who lived 2000 BC. Another problem is that Benjamin is recorded from present day Syria about 2500 BC.

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