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#18461 - 02/27/07 03:00 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: redewenur]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
(Unable to edit the above, hence second post)

Revlgking, I choose my words carefully through respect for your advanced age, but please make an effort to temper your overbearing condescension and unsubtle self-glorification. Many of your posted remarks are incompatible with your implied claims of righteousness.
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#18464 - 02/27/07 01:45 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
I find it difficult to understand why anyone would waste their time even wanting to dialogue with others who they feel are filled with "overbearing condescension and unsubtle self-glorification" and whose "posted remarks are incompatible with (their) implied claims of righteousness".

Because I choose never to offend people, deliberately, I am always more than willing to withdraw any "offensive" remarks, once I know what they are, and if there is a general consensus that such is the case--once they are pointed out to me.

Or, If there is general consensus that my presence is "offensive", I can always simply move on and dialogue with those who find my comments relatively okay. I am happily involved in other sites--I even do some moderating at Brainmeta. The Net is filled with such opportunities. I am easy smile smile .


Edited by Revlgking (02/27/07 02:06 PM)
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#18465 - 02/27/07 01:57 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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BTW, I just took a peak. Judging by the posts, 221 and the hits, 2821 This is a very popular thread. So is the one on "philosophy of Religion"--a theme which is very popular in other forums.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18474 - 02/28/07 09:22 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
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Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Rev. Let's get back to the topic: Evidence for God. The only evidence anyone has offered so far relies totally on the theory of negativity: The world could not have developed the complexity it displays if some sort of god hadn't created it.

As evidence against the existence of an omnipotent god we could point to the many conflicting ideas of what god actually is. In fact there are so many different ideas that wars are fought between groups of people who all believe they have the support of this god. If anyone had any actual evidence surely we wouldn't have that problem, unless god is one hell of a bloodthirsty critter and we are simply sacrificing to it.

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#18480 - 02/28/07 01:35 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: redewenur]
RicS Offline
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Registered: 03/26/06
Posts: 310
Loc: Sydney, Australia
G'day Revigking,

I'm interested in why you think this is the best of all possible universes. From a human perspective, this universe is a cruel, terrible place.

Humans started out on earth having a brutal, short and painful life. Civilization started up with the end of the last glaciation and life really started to suck. Farming around the Mediterranean involved mind numbing, hard work for much more hours than a hunter gatherer needed to sustain life. Children worked just as hard and life was short and close to worthless. Most children didn't make it to adulthood and died of diseases that caused terrible pain and anguish for those that had to stand by and could do nothing much but provide opium, if it was available in their little patch.

As we "progressed", the vast majority of humans lived worst than slaves. Our idea of childhood and children actually didn't even start until a bit more than a 100 years ago. Children, where there to work or for sexual gratification when old enough. Woman were treated appallingly.

On top of all this we have religious obligations for the people, that imposed terrible conditions (and in some cases still do) and wars, the first recorded major being almost 5,000 years ago. Torture, rape, brutilisation was commonplace in all societies until quite recently for western civilisation and is still pretty bad for probably half the world.

You don't have to go back even in the US more than a few years, to find appalling conditions for a very large number of citizens, whether they be black, hispanic or poor white. But the conditions for black citizens has been appalling. I really wonder how the US can be so proud of a nation that treasures fairness, yet treated so many people so badly systematically.

Go back to the 60s in the US and the conditions for women were not at all good. Statistically if you were a woman you had a better than 24% chance of being raped and a much higher chance of being the subject to violence, with pretty much no chance of obtaining any justice or protection.

Go back 100 years and those that worked in the Industrial revolution lived so badly it is quite difficult to image. Minors that worked 14 hour days and died of lung diseases that killed you horribly. Women that carted the coal for their men while popping out babies, with a good chance of dying in childbirth or the child dying. Children that were put to work at six or seven and worked pretty much the whole time they were awake.

Even today four million or so people die each year from malaria, a preventable disease and untold millions more die agonising death from AIDs.

This is not to say that humans cannot show great compassion for others, love that transends the tragedies of life or that I don't believe that the average person is more good than bad, just that I couldn't in my wildest dreams suggest we live in the best possible of universes. It does seem to be improving, I must admit for humans but the chances that it will last, probably aren't all that high. At some point a glaciation is likely to occur or we will run out of natural resources or mass starvation is likely to occur simply because of the massively stupid explosion in population that is still going to bulge up to about 10 or 12 billion before the population even has a remote chance of plateauing.

Richard
_________________________
Sane=fits in. Unreasonable=world needs to fit to him. All Progress requires unreasonableness

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#18481 - 02/28/07 01:35 PM Re: Evidence for God *DELETED* [Re: redewenur]
RicS Offline
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Registered: 03/26/06
Posts: 310
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Post deleted by Amaranth Rose II
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#18491 - 02/28/07 09:38 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: RicS]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Richard, to eliminate the double post--this software IS a bit nutty--just go back to edit and delete one of your posts. Okay? Try it, and see if works for you.


Edited by Revlgking (02/28/07 09:42 PM)

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#18492 - 02/28/07 10:10 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Richard, you make some very realistic and helpful comments.

Keep in mind that, while I admit that I could be wrong, I do not accept that there is an objective SUPER being called "God" who operates separate and from us who does things to and for us.

Here is what I meant by my comment:
Physically speaking, G?D is gravity, which acts in and through us--for good or ill.
Mentally speaking, G?D is information, knowledge, which, also, works for good or ill, in and through us.
Spiritually speaking, G?D is the power we have to will, or
to choose. It too works for good or ill.

On the whole, we have the world you describe because WE--collectively speaking--have chosen it.

If we want something different, it is up to US to make that choice.

G?D works, in and through US.
MORE ON THIS, LATER.


_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18498 - 03/01/07 01:23 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
Turner Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 16
This is my first contribution to this thread. Let me make it clear that my sister and I were raised by our parents take a critical analytical approach to all religion.

I hasten to add that they are still very much involved in the church. However, it is not the kind of church led by clergy who say: You must not ask questions; you are here to obey, pray and pay.

Let me see If I can understand what you are saying, RevLGK: I understand that you think of God--you say G?D--as having a physical, mental and spiritual components all rolled into one. I think you are on to something that makes sense to me. Please give us more details of your unique way of thinking.

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#18500 - 03/01/07 02:39 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Turner]
Wolfman Offline
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Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Pago Pago, American Samoa
Hold it, Turner; there's something wrong with the good Reverend's Keyboard. He means to punch in "G$D".

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#18514 - 03/01/07 12:01 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Wolfman]
Revlgking Offline
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Good idea, Wolfman. could I use it when I write in the thread on economics? smile G?D is all about us having all the wealth we need. Remember, if you want to be a Sufi you will need enough to matter, right?
BTW, my only daughter-in-law is a Sufi Muslim.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18588 - 03/03/07 08:05 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Wolfman]
Tim Offline
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Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 192
Loc: California
RicS, a few comments ago, "From a human perspective, this universe is a cruel, terrible place."
I would agree with that, as well as his explanation that he wrote.
from the narrow view of man, life would seem unfair, and cruel. with the many evils in this world, our frequent failings and stumblings. this is because sin has entered this frail and desolate world. yet, through the midst of this storm, there is hope. light is available to those who seek it. and it is available to all who accept it. this can come through writing, playing golf, or anything one does that sustains him in his life. it might be his lively friends, or -in my case- religion. just know that though the skies are grey, the blue strokes have yet to be painted. excuse me for my tanget, looking at where my post has gone.
in that sense, religion could be good for an individual, just as science would help another. by saying that, i am somewhat of a universalist. but it is not for those who do not accept religion to condemn others who do. i yet again have tangented.
i go through my day thinking, "Wow, look at the handiwork of the Creator," or, "What a wonder this is, that of my existence!" while another says, "Wow, look at how our race has progressed through the ages!"
for that reason, i put my faith in a God. A loving, compassionate, omnipotent God, which is a beacon of light to me in this dark life.


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#18590 - 03/03/07 11:22 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Tim]
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Tim wrote:
"this is because sin has entered this frail and desolate world"

Sin? What sin? There is no sin I've ever encountered.
Desolate? I don't see any desolation.

All I see is people making excuses and I'd suggest that they stop looking for excuses, stop looking for scapegoats, and stop looking for someone else to blame. Shoulder your share of the responsibility and do something about it.

Tim wrote:
i go through my day thinking, "Wow, look at the handiwork of the Creator"

"The Creat?r" gave you nipples. Expecting your to breast-feed children some day?

Funny though: I go through my day wondering how so many people, after so much education, and so many thousands of years of history, can still believe in the invisible purple rhin?cer?s.
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DA Morgan

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#18591 - 03/03/07 11:38 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Tim]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
KEEP IN MIND: My response is in the blue colour.
Originally Posted By: Tim
RicS, a few comments ago, "From a human perspective, this universe is a cruel, terrible place."

Thanks for joining the dialogue, Tim. My response will be in blue, okay. In my opinion, this is what it is, a dialogue, it is not a debate. I am not interested in proving you wrong; I simply want to understand you and your point of view, okay?

You go on to say: "I would agree with that, as well as his explanation that he wrote.

From the narrow view of man, life would seem unfair, and cruel. with the many evils in this world, our frequent failings and stumblings.

this is because sin has entered this frail and desolate world.

What do you mean by, SIN?

I presume that you believe that, from the beginning,"God" has been in control of all things, right? If so, does this mean that "He" allowed SIN to happen?


yet, through the midst of this storm, there is hope. Light is available to those who seek it. and it is available to all who accept it.

this can come through writing, playing golf, or anything one does that sustains him in his life. it might be his lively friends, or -in my case- religion.

Just know that though the skies are grey, the blue strokes have yet to be painted. excuse me for my tangent, looking at where my post has gone.

in that sense, religion could be good for an individual, just as science would help another. by saying that, i am somewhat of a universalist.

You are a universalist? WOW! So am I. INteresting. Let us expand on what this means, okay?

But it is not for those who do not accept religion to condemn others who do. i yet again have tangented.

What do you mean, RELIGION? Please explain.

Don't worry! So are we all often confused.


i go through my day thinking, "Wow, look at the handiwork of the Creator," or, "What a wonder this is, that of my existence!" while another says, "Wow, look at how our race has progressed through the ages!"


for that reason, i put my faith in a God. A loving, compassionate, omnipotent God, which is a beacon of light to me in this dark life.


Having read your valuable posts, which contain many ideas, I ask: In what way can we demonstrate to skeptics that "God" is truly omnipotent, loving, compassionate and a beacon of light in a dark world?

Keep in mind: About all this, I have many questions, okay? How do you feel about my signature?



_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18593 - 03/04/07 06:40 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
'In what way can we demonstrate to skeptics that "God" is truly omnipotent, loving, compassionate and a beacon of light in a dark world? '

I see the chair; I have touched the chair; I have heard the chair as it slid across the room; I have smelt the varnish on it. I know this chair to exist. This chair I call G?D. This god-chair is omnipotent and compassionate.

The problem continues: you start with a feeble redefinition of a word that has a lot of baggage and then - without any reason other than it 'feels good' - you begin to borrow qualities of the more common definition of the word. You use the baggage.

That you claim that you do not believe in a personal god is utterly irrelevant to the point. That you don't believe in a god in a beard and sandals is irrelevant. That you reject other religions is irrelevant. What is relevant to the atheist, and what coincidentally is the reason a clear-thinking atheist will not be convinced by your argument, despite your best intentions, is that what you are saying is nonsensical.

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#18594 - 03/04/07 07:38 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
TFF: I have told you the kind of concept of G?D in which I do believe and which gives meaning and purpose to my life--which, BTW is similar to that of Einstein, Sagan and many others.
BTW, I believe the G?D is personal, IN persons, not as a separate being all by "himself"--which is what Jesus meant in John 17:20 and following--when he said, "That all (people) may be one..." Do you own a Bible? John 10:34 is very interesting: Jesus said, "I have said you are gods..."

The infinite and eternal COSMOS is very real to me; and it makes a lot of sense, to me. We can all use our senses to experience it. Or do you deny that this is possible? If you are a nihilist just say so. That is your right.

Now, tell me the kind of god, God, whatever, in which you do NOT believe. What, for you, is the value, meaning and purpose of your life? For you, does all existence end with the end of your existence?

BTW, you have every right to be an atheist. If this helps you to be a happy, moral, ethical, of service to others and a law-abiding human being, good on you!
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18595 - 03/04/07 08:34 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Um ... I'm pretty sure Sagan was an atheist. It's also not clear to me that Einstein believed in any sort of God that you are advocating.

An eternal Cosmos makes a lot of sense to a lot of people - that's not what you're talking about. You're taking cosmos and imputing properties to it that there is no reason to believe it has. Moreover, btw, it's important to distinguish the idea of something being 'possible' from it being 'likely.'

Everyone, including me, has whatever purpose to their life that they ascribe to it. In short, I agree with Spinoza (a theist with whom Einstein agreed) who said, 'to be what we are and to become what we are capable of becoming is the only end of life.' It's a non sequitur to insinuate that I think the world ends with my existence. No idea how that popped into the discussion.

We're not talking about what rights people have. People have no control over what they believe. Only what they assert. The only question is whether a person professes those beliefs which he actually holds. So I'm not saying you don't have the right to believe that martian mole-men will revive me after I am dead and take me to Nirvana.

I'm answering a question that you asked, namely how can you convince atheists? The answer is - think clearly, write clearly and cogently, and make sense. "Well isn't that nice!" and "Love is wonderful!" aren't arguments.

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#18598 - 03/04/07 01:56 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
Um ... I'm pretty sure Sagan was an atheist. It's also not clear to me that Einstein believed in any sort of God that you are advocating.


It seems to me that real communication is always a challenge, isn't it. This is the value of sincere dialogue; it helps to create consensus.

PRAYER, FOR ME, BEGINS WITH AN INTERNAL DIALOGUE
IT IS A KIND OF PNEUMA-PSYCHO-CYBERNETIC ACTIVITY
I am continually involved in having an internal dialogue with the Spirit within myself.
It is the way I "pray".
I begin by asking myself questions.
Then I set goals as to what I need to do with my life;
the circumstanceS in which I find myself.
Then I visualize that which I would like to accomplish;
that which I would like to see happen;
that which helps the situation and harms no one.

Php Code:
An eternal Cosmos makes a lot of sense to a lot of people - that's not what you're talking about. 
How do you know what I am really thinking until you ask me?

Code:
You're taking cosmos and imputing properties to it that there is no reason to believe it has. Moreover, btw, it's important to distinguish the idea of something being 'possible' from it being 'likely.'
IMHO, the Cosmos has a lot of properties about which I am learning more and more each day. I have no problem with the term 'agnostic'. I am very agnostic about many things. It is possible that there are all kinds of God-like beings scattered throughout the billions of galaxies.
(BTW, I just not knowing how they looked, I just tried some of the features of the UBB code. Interesting.)

You write
Quote:
Everyone, including me, has whatever purpose to their life that they ascribe to it. In short, I agree with Spinoza (a theist with whom Einstein agreed) who said, 'to be what we are and to become what we are capable of becoming is the only end of life.'
I love much of the teachings of Spinoza, who, BTW, was condemned by his fellow Jews, in Amsterdam, as a heretic and atheist.

Quote:
It's a non sequitur to insinuate that I think the world ends with my existence. No idea how that popped into the discussion.
This illustrates a point I made above. I should have asked you questions. Now, do you believe that it is rational to think that life, in one form or another, is eternal?

Quote:
We're not talking about what rights people have. People have no control over what they believe.
I feel that I do have some control. I know that I have changed my beliefs, deliberately, over the decades. This is one of the reasons I have had to come up with new ways of writing them down.

G?D is not the same as god, or God
For example, when I write my special word for 'god' as G?D I can give it the baggage I imagine. Orthodox Jews do the same when they write G-d.

Quote:
Only what they assert. The only question is whether a person professes those beliefs which he actually holds. So I'm not saying you don't have the right to believe that martian mole-men will revive me after I am dead and take me to Nirvana.
Thank you for making this clear. Now you tell us what you would like to see happen, after you are dead.

Quote:
I'm answering a question that you asked, namely how can you convince atheists? The answer is - think clearly, write clearly and cogently, and make sense. "Well isn't that nice!" and "Love is wonderful!" aren't arguments.
Let me be clear: I do not want to convince atheists--and, I presume, not all atheists think alike--of
anything. I want to know what they believe, or don't believe. And certainly I want atheists to stop twisting the sincerely held beliefs of believers so as to ridicule them for their sincerely held beliefs. BTW, I have never believed in "Martian mole-men". smile


Edited by Revlgking (03/04/07 02:00 PM)
_________________________
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#18609 - 03/04/07 08:05 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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"Now, do you believe that it is rational to think that life, in one form or another, is eternal?"

The question is ambiguous. Does it mean a single life, or life in general? The answer to both interpretations I immediately see is, "No."

" I feel that I do have some control. I know that I have changed my beliefs, deliberately, over the decades. This is one of the reasons I have had to come up with new ways of writing them down. "

I suspect you have not analyzed the situation correctly. What I think that you had a belief, but reality perhaps made you question that belief. The fact that you are curious made you more open to other ideas. But the fundamental act of changing your belief was not voluntary. The new belief either made sense to you or it did not.

If you don't believe in Martian mole-men, then I'll never make it to Nirvana.

I do not believe that I am twisting the sincerely held beliefs of believers. To some extent, I'm sure I do ridicule on occasion, but I don't think I've ridiculed you on here. I've teased you a little and I've prodded you.


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#18611 - 03/04/07 10:22 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
With seven questions, GORDON SINCLAIR IN CHURCH, BUT DISBELIEF STILL FIRM This headline appeared in the TORONTO STAR, Monday, April 13, 1964.

In 1964, I was 34. That was 43 years ago. I am now 77. Imagine!!!. I find it hard to believe: I AM 77. WOW! 77. My mother died when she was just 55; my father when he was 64.
I wonder: Where are they now? Where are the deceased members of your family? Ever the philosopher, I wonder?

At the time, Gordon Sinclair was a well-known, journalist, broadcaster, skeptic and professed-non Christian. He was known across Canada.

Later, because of a pro-American editorial he did--well done, BTW--he became a well-known darling in the USA, for more that 15 minutes.

The following Wednesday, I wrote to Gordon. I offered him a positive criticism of his point of view. Because I did not attack him, he and I kept writing each other, for over a year. For me, it was a great learning experience in the art of dialogue.

We became friends. After this, he was instrumental in getting me on several media programs.

Sometime later, I was the member of a CTV (across Canada) panel with him which was broadcast, nationally.

On that program he said to me: "Rev. King, as I have told you in conversations with you: I believe that death is the end of life...That's it. After death, there is just nothing else for all members of the human race. When you're dead, you're dead, period!"

I responded as follows:

"Gordon, you know, If that is what you BELIEVE, you could be right. However, if you ARE right, you will never have the opportunity to kidd me about my belief.

However, If I am right, think of the fun I am going to have with you..." smile

Gordon got the point. Graciously, and broke out into loud laughter. So did the panel, and the audience. We all had fun.

If you are interested, in my next post I will reveal Gordon's
SEVEN QUESTIONS, okay?




Edited by Revlgking (03/04/07 11:25 PM)
_________________________
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