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#18707 - 03/08/07 12:29 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Blacknad]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Unfortunately Blacknad there are some who do not regard such a totally repugnant act as evil, so the answer to your question is no. Obviously this is an act which we can try to legislate against, but to the perpetrator it may not be not evil.

Good and Evil are not absolutes. They cannot exist without someone's opinion. As I asked Rev when he asked me if I ever joined a group to do good works, my reply was-good for whom? What one sees as good another may abhor, and similarly with evil.

In fact, if the human race were to vanish from the planet tomorrow there would be no good- or evil either because the concept of good/evil is a human construct.


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#18708 - 03/08/07 12:34 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Blacknad]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
In my opinion no it is not. But, unfortunately from my perspective, there appear to be people that do not agree. And the jails should have room for them all.

Here's my personal feeling about it ... and thank you for using an extreme example as it is often the best way to illuminate a point.

I would personally condemn such a person to death and be willing to pull the switch were I 100% sure they were the perpetrator. Given my lack of certainty I will commute that sentence to life in prison without possibility of release.

But is it evil? I would have to say no. My personal opinion, and again it is only personal opinion, is that some two-legged semi-sentient entities on this planet are damaged goods. Some are damaged by being born with a birth defect and some damaged by virtue of having brains that function in a manner in which they commit acts inconsistent with civility and civilization. We can coexist with and help those with some forms of damage. We are not obligated to help those whose defects are so severe that they hurt others.

Civilization has a right to protect itself from child rapists, bombers, some politicians, and other bad actors. But we should be intellectually honest and acknowledge that this is someone that is (don't care why or how) damaged.

And let me now throw back your way a question equally intended to emphasize the extreme.

My country has a President, and yours a PM, who I believe have done far more damage to far more innocent children than all of the child rapists in your country combined. Why is it that we can all agree that child rape is a crime ... and blowing the arms and legs off a child, killing its parents, and burning its home and family to the ground, a matter where intelligent men might differ and not a single person has been put behind bars? Nor will any be.

So to return to your original question ... I would disagree with your assumption that child rapists, or my President, are of sound mind. Their actions, in and of themselves, indicate otherwise.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#18712 - 03/08/07 03:44 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: DA Morgan]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Blacknad asked:

"Is it evil to be in sound mind and rape a two year old child? Always?"

I think most of us would agree (and DA certainly seems to) it is impossible that anyone who would rape a two year old child could be in sound mind. They would have to have had a very strange upbringing. I used to know a person who was charged with molesting his child. I spoke to him shortly before his case came up and was absolutely stunned as he came up with all sorts of justifications for it. Turns out his family had always done it. I suppose we could say the family was evil but it's more likely they were just very strange.

By the way, good to hear from you again Blacky.

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#18715 - 03/08/07 05:18 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
I wish I could agree that people who commit such ghastly acts are sub-normal and look weird. I can assure you that this is not so. There may be some aberrant behaviour, but think about it for a moment, is a small child going to trust a slavering monster or a friendly person who shows them concern and care? Luckily this is, in spite of the news media's hysterics, a very unusual crime, and I can only say that in my opinion such a dreadful act is probably not viewed as evil by the person who commits it. Do you remember seeing the awful footage on the CCTV of 2 boys leading a little toddler through a Shopping Centre as he trustingly held their hands. They then brutally murdered him, for a thrill. Maybe later they saw it as evil, but at the time they were seeking excitement and would have tried to justify their actions. terry is right, some people just don't think it's wrong.

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#18717 - 03/08/07 05:46 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Ellis]
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Some people think Christianity is wrong ... others Islam ... other Judiasm. I think they are all wrong. But no matter your perspective it is all just a point-of-view.

Some people think what is happening to Shiites in Iraq is wrong. Some think what is happening to the Suni's wrong. I think it is all wrong. But no matter your perspective it is just a point-of-view.

I think dropping bombs on children as horrible as raping them. Apparently the President of my country disagrees. And I think his moronic rationalisations as value-less as those of a child-rapist claiming he was abused as a child. Does civilized society need either? Should it tolerate either?

What is the lesson of Nazi Germany: Is that "normal" people can commit extraordinarily horrible acts or that those who commit those acts are sick and twisted individuals?

I don't think it matters. I think society has the right and the responsibility to rid itself of the maggots. Using buzzwords like "evil" is no more valuable than using any other four-letter word. It is intended to replace reason and judgment with emotion.
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DA Morgan

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#18721 - 03/08/07 07:21 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: DA Morgan]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Your post brings to mind Bush's 'axis of evil' remark, in which he combined the image of the Rome-Berlin Axis Powers of WWII with that of the devil as a way raising public support for his own warmongering ambitions. That man recognises that he is the leader of a broadly religious nation, and he is able and willing to exploit the fact.

It's grotesque that among the people from whom he manages to gain support for his death and destruction campaign are a very large number who claim to have evidence for God.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#18730 - 03/08/07 06:15 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
It is a fascinating, horrifying, and grotesque fact that those who are most religious are more easily able to rationalize what they have done.

In country after country, without regard to the prevailing religion, calls to commit or justify horrible acts are couched in the terms of god and nation.

To ask an atheist to do something horrible requires you to convince that person to override their personal moral compass. To ask a religious person to do so only requires that you convince them that what you are asking is god's will. And it isn't possible for them to ask that god if the interpretation is correct.

I think, also, there is a definite difference between religious people and non-religious people with respect to their willingness to challenge authority and to resist being led.

If you are one of those who goes to your Sunday morning seat to have someone tell you what is right, what is wrong, what is good, what is evil, and ask you to bow down and worship your lord (and lets not forget that words like lord and king and kingdom are not exactly neutral words) then you are far more likely to follow King George or King Tony or King Adolph.

Anarchy isn't a picnic and I am not advocating it. But blindly following the self-anointed is a proven recipe for war and destruction.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#18748 - 03/09/07 12:11 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: DA Morgan]
Tim Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 192
Loc: California
DA, i am somewhat confused when you said, "Anarchy isn't a picnic and I am not advocating it. But blindly following the self-anointed is a proven recipe for war and destruction. "
i dont get how that relates to anything you were saying before that....
well its good, at least, that youre not advocating anarchy.
redewener said, "It's grotesque that among the people from whom he [Bush] manages to gain support for his death and destruction campaign are a very large number who claim to have evidence for God."
yes, conservatives support the war effort because they support their country. now dont get me wrong, im not one to discuss politics, but you brought it up. we support a free world, apart from dictatorships, and equality for all people. it is necessary to end this threat, and we support our troops, and our country.

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#18749 - 03/09/07 01:00 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Tim]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Tim asks:
"DA, i am somewhat confused when you said, "Anarchy isn't a picnic and I am not advocating it. But blindly following the self-anointed is a proven recipe for war and destruction. "
i dont get how that relates to anything you were saying before that...."

Sorry for the lack of clarity. I didn't want anyone to misinterpret my remarks to mean that there should be no authority, ie anarchy, because authority is a known evil. I think both authoritarianism and anarchy equally likely to lead to bad acts.

Tim wrote:
"yes, conservatives support the war effort because they support their country."

What you wrote is absolutely true and absolutely grotesque. You are essentially saying, as I did, that god and country is the way to inspire normal people to commit or support horrific acts.

Tim wrote:
"we support a free world, apart from dictatorships, and equality for all people."

We do not. That may be the operative line in public relations releases and propaganda but it is clearly and easily proven to be untrue. Here is just one example among many.

In the 1950's Iran, by democratic election, put into its presidency a gentleman by the name of Dr. Mohammad Mosadek. Do you know what happened to the leader of their democracy? The CIA did him in. That isn't political propaganda. The United States proudly announced and took credit for his demise. Who did the US replace him with? A totalitarian dictator. And why you might ask would the beacon of democracy have overthrown the elected leader of another democracy? He tried to give his impoverished people a larger share of oil revenues. I hope this gives you pause to think about why I revile blind nationalistic jingoism. It usually is intended to hide an ugly truth. We care more about oil company profits than equality or freedom and the rest.

There is no threat in Iraq other than the one we, ourselves, created. It is time for you to stop repeating empty public relations slogans and use those neurons between your ears.

Your first homework assignment is to answer this question:

Given that we overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran ... why should anyone in that region believe us when we say we are killing people to bring them democracy?

Start your education here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran/History
read the section following:
"United States and the Shah"
Then use google, yahoo, etc. to learn more of the truth.

You have been lied to. Plain and simple. If you accept the truth you can do something to change it and make the world a better place. If you mindlessly repeat the public relations slogan more bad things will happen and you will be guilty of supporting them.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#18753 - 03/09/07 03:54 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: Tim]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Tim
now dont get me wrong, im not one to discuss politics, but you brought it up.

Unfortunately, politics has a way of creeping into most aspects of life. DA has answered your post so there's no point in repeating what he's said. I will add this, though -

My reasons for introducing politics to the subject:

(a) Its closely related to religion
(b) Its agendas and decisions are very often strongly influenced by the prevailing national religion
(c) Politicians can and do manipulate populations via their religions
(d) It has a direct bearing on the matter under discussion, i.e. 'Evidence for God'

To repeat my point: People who claim to believe in God - presumably because they have evidence, intuitive or otherwise - have found themselves supporting a war in which their countries (U.K. included) have slaughtered hundreds of thousands of men women and children, and maimed untold numbers of others.

Their leaders told them it was right. Does their God also tell them it was right?
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#18754 - 03/09/07 04:18 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: DA Morgan]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
DA wrote:
To ask an atheist to do something horrible requires you to convince that person to override their personal moral compass. To ask a religious person to do so only requires that you convince them that what you are asking is god's will. And it isn't possible for them to ask that god if the interpretation is correct.


Well said. There is also the point suggested by that argument that the old excuse---"The devil made me do it " has to be personally valid if that person believes in the personification of evil in supernatural form, or indeed if they believe in Evil as a force in the world. This allows someone to distance themselves from the consequences of their actions in a way not possible to those who feel that deeds and actions are our own responsibilities.

The issue of punishment or such crimes should carry some thought of rehabilitation but this is often not possible. Whist I agree that people whose actions are so foul and disgusting that they need punishment should receive it, I cannot be sure that such punishment is always going to lead to repentance or redemption. In fact I feel that punishment is often imposed to allow the victim to feel valued by their society. Having said that I think that it may in fact be a very good reason and a valid argument for punishment. However sometimes the mores of a society will differ from our own personal ideals, and this is often difficult for religious people (or , to be fair anyone with rigid rules of conduct) to understand. The prospect of rehabilitation of such sociopaths mentioned in the previous posts is always unlikely but I think that the possibility of it happening for me, negates the use of capital punishment for anyone. Punishing someone for murder by 'killing them back' is just revenge I think.

As for the atrocities of war-- well that has always been OK as long as your side wins. The other side are barbarians and butchers, and eventually get tried for war crimes!


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#18757 - 03/09/07 04:26 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: redewenur]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
DA wrote:

"It is a fascinating, horrifying, and grotesque fact that those who are most religious are more easily able to rationalize what they have done."

I'd say they are more easily fooled. Some friends and I were discussing this some years ago and decided it's because they have to fool themselved every single day. They have to convince themselves that a god made them for some purpose.

Tim wrote:

"we support a free world, apart from dictatorships, and equality for all people. it is necessary to end this threat, and we support our troops, and our country."

When George W. Caesar originally announced he was invading Iraq to bring them "freedom and democracy" I had to chuckle. I knew at the time they were the last two things the Us administration wanted for them.

Redewenur. I'd start with (a) Politics is life, and adjust the others accordingly.


Edited by terrytnewzealand (03/09/07 04:27 AM)

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#18760 - 03/09/07 04:39 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: terrytnewzealand]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Ellis wrote:
"The issue of punishment or such crimes should carry some thought of rehabilitation but this is often not possible."

I believe in rehabilitation. And I believe in making a sincere effort toward it when it is reasonable and possible. But in many cases, for example someone that commits multiple offenses, it is just plain preposterous and delusional to think this person has any ability, or interest, in reforming.

And, in what way, is it a sign of civilization that we let these predators return, again and again, to hurt innocent people. If think at 5 felony convictions, for example, a line should be drawn in the sand.

Cross the line and you get a telephone and 30 days to find a country that wants you? Find one and you get a plane ticket. Don't find one and you get a parachute, a pocket knife, a box of matches, and a one-way flight to Baffin Island to match wits with the polar bears.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#18762 - 03/09/07 04:59 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: DA Morgan]
glubrani Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2
Loc: USA
There's only one true Freedom, all other freedoms stem from this one true Freedom.

It's not about having a religion, or being religious, or following this belief
or that one over there or none at all. It's about knowing the truth because
ultimately THAT is what sets people (and therefore, Nations) Free.

Here's a simple example of that truth I refer to that will set people and Nations free:

[From Wikipedia.com]
Deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) is a nucleic acid that contains the genetic instructions
for the development and functioning of living organisms.

That's an acceptable and simple scientific definition of DNA, is it not?

Can it be accepted here as clear and accurate? I say, why of coarse.
It's simple enough even for a child to understand.

ok then, here's the question:

who wrote the code for DNA? Who wrote the set of instructions?

It takes intellegence for man to write code. I'm most certain we will all readily
agree on that one. Yet it's obvious to all intellegent human beings that man
didn't write the DNA code. Yet someone had to - it's code and that takes an
intellegent being to create.

It's the truth, and so is this ... Jesus Christ wrote the code.

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#18764 - 03/09/07 05:13 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: terrytnewzealand]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: terrytnewzealand
Redewenur. I'd start with (a) Politics is life, and adjust the others accordingly.

It sometimes seems that way, but I'm referring to the politics of governments, with particular reference to manipulation of populations. In this case, the politician was very aware of how to manipulate his population.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#18765 - 03/09/07 05:17 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: glubrani]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: glubrani
it's obvious to all intellegent human beings that man didn't write the DNA code. Yet someone had to - it's code and that takes an intellegent being to create.

It's the truth, and so is this ... Jesus Christ wrote the code.

glubrani, would you call yourself a believer in 'Intelligent Design' or a Creationist?
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#18769 - 03/09/07 07:37 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: redewenur]
glubrani Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2
Loc: USA
I would call myself a truth seeker. That there is a Creator is apparent to all, whether they will admit it or not. Don't believe that's true? ok, fair enough, here's the proof :

For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities ? his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.

read this part again:

" God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts."

Whose hearts? Every human who ever lived. That includes you and me.

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#18770 - 03/09/07 08:22 AM Re: Evidence for God [Re: glubrani]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Well, glubrani, if you say that's the way it is, who am I to argue? No point, really, is there?
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#18772 - 03/09/07 12:03 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: redewenur]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...

"Jesus Christ wrote the code"
Lots of things are obvious if you don't think about them too hard. Lots of very ignorant people are convinced of a lot of nonsensical things. Things are true just because someone says them. Things aren't true just because ancient scrolls claim they are true. Lots of ancient books claim to hold the truth. "Just believe" is not a proof.


"I would call myself a truth seeker."
I wouldn't call you a truth seeker.


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#18775 - 03/09/07 02:51 PM Re: Evidence for God [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
MrBiGG78 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 30
Loc: Gatineau, QC
Doesn't take any inteligence to write code
Just take a look at Microsoft, you can clearly see it's all trial and error...




/Everything that is, still is and always will be
/That is the truth of the eternal now

_________________________
What was, still is, and always will be such is the truth of the eternal now.

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