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Response 3:
blacknad ... reread what I said about the 4 quotes ... you misunderstood my intent.
and to continue you write: "We are here to choose whether we want to co-exist with God or whether we want to reject him."
You can't have it both ways blacknad. If we go with the Christian understanding it does, by definition, support the Christian belief system. Why is that any more credible than the Alawite belief system or the Jewish belief system or the Arapahoe belief system?
Is it believable that a god, a REAL god, would be so hopelessly muddled and incompetent that the best he could do is ambiguity and that the souls of those who "should believe" are left to the happenstance of which fallible human preacher shows up on their little island in Indonesia and tells them to change their belief system? That's a joke: Right? They go to hell because the nutcase that showed up to show them the way to redemption was unable to speak their language.
Do you truly believe that an entity ultimately able to create the entire universe couldn't have his son born, simultaneously, in every nation, town, and village, a member of every race, and speaking every language to spread what you believe is the single most important fact there is? Preposterous. Winston Churchill knew how to disseminate important information to his people. The Christian god, instead, chooses a one-shot approach in a country with a small and largely uneducated population. Even with a bottle of scotch in you you could do better.
I'm calling rotten on this one blacknad. You write: "You have asked many times why God never revealed penicillin. The above hints at the answer. Christians believe that God expects a choice while we are on this earth."
Penicillin is most valuable in saving the lives of newborn infants and children. You are saying that your benevolent god put the cure to the suffering and death of innocent children out there where it would be hard to find and said ... "my children have been bad so their children can suffer horrible painful deaths for milleniums until they figure it out themselves."
Nonsense unless your god is a monster. Which brings us full circle. If your god is a monster ... then so be it. It explains why the Jews have been so blessed and penicillin was hidden from children. If your god is a loving, benevolent, and forgiving entity then you have painted yourself into a corner from which there is no escape. You can not claim to be nice and deny children penicillin because of the sins of their parents.
And Christians don't have an answer for that any more than do Jews or Moslems or anybody else. They just ... hey how about Manchester United. <g>
DA Morgan
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MrBiGG78 wrote: "Jesus, if he ever walked this earth, was nothing more then a good willed visionary." I think there is very little doubt he walked on earth. One of the best witnesses to this is the Q'ran which discusses both Jesus and his mother and spends more time discussing his mother than all of the original Christian writings combined. Ultimately the saddest fact about Christianity is that there is not a single living person that has actually ever read the original manuscripts of Mark, Matthew, Luke, etc. but a huge amount of evidence that the texts that have made it to our current era are flawed by both accident and intent. Thus there isn't a single Christian that can actually quote a single word ever actually spoken by Jesus Christ. It is all just make-believe. It is all just delusion. I suggested some time back that those here in the forum read a book titled "Misquoting Jesus." It appears no one had the $10 required ... or was it just a lack of real interest. Hmmmmmm. Here are the author's credentials if anyone is interested: http://www.unc.edu/depts/rel_stud/faculty/BartDEhrman/BartCV.htmThere are an awful lot of far less knowledgeable and educated people making statements that are laughable when viewed in the context of what the experts say.
DA Morgan
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In 1972 I saw Man U at White Hart Lane playing the Tottenham Hotspurs. Georgie Best and Bobby Charlton were playing. Best was right at the height of his popularity, people called him "The Fifth Beatle". Charlton was at the twilight of his great career, but he made one play, a "donkey kick" delection of somebody else's shot that was incredible to watch. Man U was a team in disarry at the time. In 1974 they were relegated to the Second Division. And the Spurs were at the top of their game. They won the UEFA Cup that year. Martin Peters, the English World Cup Team Captain was on the team, as was Martin Chivers I played Football in School; I remember seeing the Spurs defenders sitting on the grass during play when Tottenham was on the attack. I couldn't believe it. Do that in American Football, you're history. The fans, the "Cockneys" of North London, used to sing some song about the Spurs that went to the tune of "Glory, Glory, Halleluyah." I could never make out the words. We, the fans, would STAND UP the entire game. Fist fights everywhere. I was twenty. Oh, those were some glorius Autumn afternoons! I haven't thought of that in years. Thanks, DA.
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Dan, 'Misquoting Jesus' is a difficult one. Ehrman is one of a number of experts who take an extreme view that is certainly not mainstream to Biblical Critiscism. Professor Bock, who held his seat before him and was equally as brilliant, studied the same texts in similar fashion and came to an opposing position. Goes back to my illustration of politicians seeing the same thing and understanding it in contrary ways. William Lane Craig had a very interesting debate with Ehrman. See here: http://www.holycross.edu/departments/crec/website/resurrdebate.htmYou will read it and see merit in Ehrman's position - I read it and see merit in Craig's. In the end, we make a subjective decision that suits us. Blacknad.
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I've read multiple authors. I invite you to do the same. When all you read is what you agree with ... well you'll likely end up feeling really good and learning little. And if you don't pursue something just because there is disagreement ... well you know what I'm going to say so I'll skip the lecture. But my suspicion here is that you are making far more of the disagreements than is actually there. On many many points they all agree. And one point of agreement, clearly stated, is that there are indeed more versions (variations) of the Christian Bible than it contains words. They may argue with respect to what is or is not more or less authentic/original. But they do not disagree on most of what Ehrman writes. I think a bit of intellectual honesty is required here ... wouldn't you would be shaken in many respects were Ehrman correct. Which makes me wonder how you reacted to this: http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/tomb/tomb.htmlAnd yes it too is controversial. And no the work done doesn't meet my criteria for real science. But it is still quite likely real. Now about the clock ... my take on this is that you posted at around 3:00am your time. Isn't there something else you should be doing right now?
DA Morgan
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Thus there isn't a single Christian that can actually quote a single word ever actually spoken by Jesus Christ. It is all just make-believe. It is all just delusion.
I myself have never made it to the "Holy Land", but, over the years, I have met several people that have. One thing I find quite humorous is the fact that, if you take ten "Birthplace of Jesus" Tourist Trips in Bethlehem, you'll hit ten different sites. And these are Jews, Christians and Baha'i people I know.
These guys (Religous Zealots) don't know what they're talking about. Let's talk about Killer Asteroids or something.
Last edited by Wolfman; 03/13/07 03:56 AM.
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You want to talk about killer asteroids come on over to the Physics ... we do astroPhysics forum and lets mix it up.
I, for one, think we are going to get a good bashing. I'm just not sure whether the asteroid will do as much damage as the hypocritical whining after-the-fact about why nothing was done to stop it.
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What an "Act of God" THAT would be! Cool if it hit smack on Mecca.
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Consider the following ethical dilemma.
Suppose every "true believer" were to pray that no asteroid hit the earth and one did. What would be the result.
1. They would all rationally realize prayer doesn't do it.
2. They would all get mad at their god for ignoring them.
3. They would all blame other people for not being as true a believer as they are.
4. Some people would try to take advantage of the suffering and misery by claiming they know why god did it.
Feel free to add to my list ... but rest assured the correct answer is not number 1.
DA Morgan
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Now about the clock ... my take on this is that you posted at around 3:00am your time. Isn't there something else you should be doing right now? Dear Dad, Sorry for staying up past my bedtime but it was 1:30 and not 3:00 and I wasn't working until the afternoon. I won't do it again. Am I grounded now? Blacknad.
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Nonsense unless your god is a monster. Which brings us full circle. If your god is a monster ... then so be it. It explains why the Jews have been so blessed and penicillin was hidden from children. If your god is a loving, benevolent, and forgiving entity then you have painted yourself into a corner from which there is no escape. You can not claim to be nice and deny children penicillin because of the sins of their parents. I don't believe God is a monster. I believe that some of his acts appear monstrous from a human perspective. The gulf in assumptions between a believer and atheist prevent any meaningful discussion on this topic. I understand how an atheist will see the utterly blind, inconsistent irrationality of the believer on this issue. I also see that with the believer's differing set of base assumptions about the nature of existence, suffering, and the short-term temporal nature of life in comparison to the eternal, then the conclusions will be starkly different, but entirely self-consistent within their worldview. It is almost the same as two people speaking different languages. I say almost, because the theist can understand both the self-consistency of your position and why you may be horrified at their position. You, however, will always fail to see the self-consistency of the theist's position within their framework of assumptions. Sorry - a bit convoluted there. We need to understand that this conversation can never be resolved and that the real debate lies at the heart of the basic assumptions we have about the nature of the universe: Materialism or Supernaturalism? Blacknad.
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Consider the following ethical dilemma.
Suppose every "true believer" were to pray that no asteroid hit the earth and one did. What would be the result.
1. They would all rationally realize prayer doesn't do it.
2. They would all get mad at their god for ignoring them.
3. They would all blame other people for not being as true a believer as they are.
4. Some people would try to take advantage of the suffering and misery by claiming they know why god did it.
Feel free to add to my list ... but rest assured the correct answer is not number 1. This is an ethical dilemma only if you believe that prayer works like a vending machine - you put your prayer in one slot and get your diverted asteroid out of another. It only works if we posit a god that has no mind of its own and is simply at the beck and call of its followers, and could have no possible reason not to intervene when asked. Blacknad.
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Blacknad. I'm prepared to concede there are elements of our existence we cannot explain and there may be some intergalactic connection we could call God. But! I have a great deal of trouble imagining any such entity has anything in common with the Old Testament view of God. It makes no sense that such an entity would favour one group of humans simply because they happen to have ancestors that lived in a particular small region of the earth. I fail to see any distinction between a "chosen people" and a "master race". Besides, the group in question is indistinguishable genetically from their neighbours. Their only distinction is their religion.
Many stories in the Old Testament are obviously concocted to justify political perspectives dating back to about 600 to 700 BC. It's highly unlikely the stories of Abraham for example refer to anyone who lived as long ago as 2000 BC. There's no way he could have met Hittites, Philistines or Aramaeans that long ago. It's also highly unlikely the Israelites emerged from Egypt as a refugee group. Perhaps as a retreating Hyksos army though.
As for Noah's ark, the less said the better. Likewise Adam and Eve, the tower of Babel, the sun stopping still etc.
Any God is not the God of the Old testament.
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Not grounded. But without mentioning names, or violating any confidences, I'm wondering how "someone" felt about you being in front of the computer at 1:30 in the morning.
Purely rhetorical ... so if you feel compelled to respond do it off-line. <g>
DA Morgan
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blacknad wrote: "I believe that some of his acts appear monstrous from a human perspective."
An interesting statement as it is the only perspective allowed to those of us that are.
blacknad wrote: "I also see that with the believer's differing set of base assumptions about the nature of existence, suffering,"
I'll accept that with the caveat that not all monotheistic religions have made saints out of those that flog themselves. But if you think, from your perspective, that there is value in the suffering of newborn children I cannot argue with that being your belief system. Though it does bring to mind your statement that those who "believe" are not mentally ill. I can't think of any other life form on the planet that puts value in the suffering of children.
I'll accept your statement that the differences in our thinking are not resolvable unless one of us does at 180. But when you walk into that other bedroom at 10:00pm and look at that child sleeping peacefully. What would be your reaction if when you went to the chemist he refused to give you a prescription because he had a different perspective than your own? Would you say "well that's what god did for 100,000 years so it must be Ok and walk away?
I don't think so.
No matter how easily you may be able to rationalize the fact that "god's" acts seem monstrous to us but they are ok because god did them ... you have to be willing to accept:
1. Killing every man, woman, and child on the entire planet with the sole exception being members of a single family (Noah).
2. Killing every first-born son in an entire country (Exodus).
3. Creating and intentionally withholding information about penicillin, tetracycline, rabies vaccine, tetanus vaccine, and a cure for malaria until some imperfect human scientist figures it out by means that never once include picking up a bible or praying for divine guidance.
Can you really do that? I tried once upon a time. I was about 15 years old. I failed miserably. And I've never been able to rationalize it since.
Monstrous acts are committed by monsters.
And if he/she/it doesn't like that statement then he/she/it may chose to force me to my knees but I will no sooner bow voluntarily than I will pull the wings from a butterfly.
DA Morgan
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blacknad wrote: "This is an ethical dilemma only if you believe that prayer works like a vending machine - you put your prayer in one slot and get your diverted asteroid out of another.
It only works if we posit a god that has no mind of its own and is simply at the beck and call of its followers, and could have no possible reason not to intervene when asked."
Lets take your perspective. Lets assume that prayer may or may not work. Ok ... why? Here are all the possible explanations assuming the one doing the praying is a devout true believer.
1. God listens occasionally (playing golf the rest of the time?)
2. God listens but uses a roll of the dice to determine when to respond to a prayer
3. God listens and has a firmly written set of rules that we humans, in 100,000+ years have failed to grasp but to which we are held accountable (sounds like the US's Homeland Security)
4. God has a sense of humor that involves letting churches and their congregations be burned, bombed, blown apart by tornadoes, or devastated by earthquakes.
Feel free to add to my list.
I am going, again, to challenge you to reconsider the basis upon which you believe what you believe. I am not offering you anything reassuring in exchange for stepping off the edge of the cliff. What I am offering is just a strong dose of reality.
Two people are walking across the street. One gets hit by a car driven the a drunk driver. The victim is as likely to be the priest as the sinner.
How, if there is a god, how if there is justice, how if "good things happen to good people," can it be shown again and again that it makes no difference to any aspect of objective reality.
Here's are the words from a song I used to sing back when I was young. I've never forgotten them and they should haunt you too.
Oh my name it ain't nothin' My age it means less The country I come from Is called the Midwest I was taught and brought up there The laws to abide And that land that I live in Has God on its side.
Oh the history books tell it They tell it so well The cavalries charged The Indians fell The cavalries charged The Indians died Oh the country was young With God on its side.
Oh the Spanish-American War had its day And the Civil War too Was soon laid away And the names of the heroes I was made to memorize With guns in their hands And God on their side.
Oh the First World War, boys It came and it went The reason for fighting I never did get But I learned to accept it Accept it with pride For you don't count the dead When gods on your side.
When the Second World War Came to an end We forgave the Germans And then we were friends Though they murdered six million In the ovens they fried The Germans now too Have God on their side.
Ive learned to hate Russians All through my whole life If another war starts Its them we must fight To hate them and fear them To run and to hide And accept it all bravely With God on our side.
But now we've got weapons Of chemical dust If fire them were forced to Then fire them we must One push of the button And a shot the world wide And you never ask questions When gods on your side.
In many a dark hour I've been thinkin' about this That Jesus Christ Was betrayed by a kiss But I can't think for you You'll have to decide Whether Judas Iscariot Had God on his side.
So now as Im leavin' I'm weary as hell The confusion I'm feelin' Ain't no tongue can tell The words fill my head And fall to the floor If god's on our side He'll stop the next war. ~ Bob Dylan
DA Morgan
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Belt buckles issued to German Soldiers during WWII carried the phrase, "God Is With Us".
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DA. This thread has suddenly become magnificent. Bob Dylan songs. That was one of the first of his I heard. It's probably because of him I am a fulltime musician and teacher these days.
Musician goes to heaven and sees a man with a long white beard strumming a guitar and singing badly. "Don't worry about him" says Saint Peter. "It's God. Thinks he's Bob Dylan".
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God is living. He lives amongst us. His glance pierces our inmost being. His rays of hope are caught upon our thirsting lips. His peace surpasses all understanding. His power is more than that of the water?s crushing waves. His voices speaks forth truth. Yet men reject Him and His words. Man who is so easily corruptible; swaying in the deep recesses of the ocean! Man whose glory is as the flower; fragrant for a season, and withering the next. His time on this green earth is but a blink of an eye. And yet he is prideful, and vain. Not knowing that he is but a temporal creature, under the watchful eyes of his Creator. O, vanity of man, casting aside all reason! Why must you abandon reason, and place unreason in its stead; and calling it such blasphemous names as reason, and progress! Man, know that you are but dust, withering away in the storm of life. All is vanity under this harsh sun, all grass withers. Turn now to your Maker, and He will give you that which is not perishable. He alone knows the inner workings of this universe, and He alone is the divine watchmaker, and He alone is our universal truth, and He alone is God. Those who would follow him will mount up on the wings of eagles, and the wings of the dawn. They will surely renew their strength, and not remain arrogant; for they know that their plight is but for a moment, and they remain humble. O, Man, follow your infinite Creator! Turn to Him, and confess your deeds; for He alone is worthy!
I wrote this poem, to my Creator and Lord, for I like poetry.
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Tim. Nice poem and may be true. But how can we know how to "follow your infinite Creator! Turn to Him, and confess your deeds;"
There are so many groups who claim to know the true path how can we decide which is correct? They can't all be. Note my post at the top of the page (#18929 - March 14). For those reasons we can be sure the Creator you talk about is not the god of the Old Testament.
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