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#37631 - 03/02/11 05:43 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: kallog]
Revlgking Offline
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Quote:
Atheism doesn't mean being bad, or directionless, or not doing things for the good of self, family, and others. It doesn't impede political and economic motivation. In fact atheism can be better because it doesn't put an artificial barrier (G0d/GOD) as the top priority which sometimes gets in the way of doing good things.
Then why do atheists fear joining forces with progressive process theologians like unitheists, who welcome fellowship with progressive atheists/agnostics? You also seem to fear transcendence and that life could be an eternal and infinite process. Do you?


Edited by Revlgking (03/02/11 05:47 AM)
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#37633 - 03/02/11 06:51 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
kallog Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Then why do atheists fear joining forces with progressive process theologians like unitheists, who


Fear? Do you fear joining forces with Sun-God worshipers and Catholics? Would you be happy to have statues of the virgin Mary around your house? Wouldn't it just be meaningless decoration, no better than a vase of flowers?


Quote:
also seem to fear transcendence and that life could be an eternal and infinite process. Do you?


Eternal and infinite human life aren't part of your stated system. But even if they were, do you fear the superiority of snake Gods over humans?

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#37658 - 03/03/11 04:41 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: kallog]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: kallog
... Fear? Do you fear joining forces with Sun-God worshipers and Catholics? Would you be happy to have statues of the virgin Mary around your house? ...
Sun-God worshipers? I have never met one in the Toronto area. What are their social values? Are there any in your area?

Catholics and statues of the Virgin Mary?

Working with Catholics, politically and economically, to serve the common social good does not require that I have statues of the virgin Mary around my house. My only sister, is married to a Catholic. Her husband, Ron--a liberal-thinking Catholic--and I have a lot in common, socially speaking.
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#37674 - 03/04/11 03:14 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Until March 26, I will be on vacation. Treasure Island, just west of St. Petersburg, Florida. Meanwhile, everybody relax! I will do my best so to do! smile
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#37678 - 03/04/11 06:14 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Bill S. Offline
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Even skimming through this thread has been hard work. I am left with the impression that contributors, in general, have developed ways of looking at life with which they are reasonably comfortable, and which afford them a degree of security.

To a great extent this supports my long held belief that God is defined by the pre-conceptions of individuals and groups; many of whom then decide that their beliefs are the only right ones.

Regulars on this forum will know that I am fascinated by the idea of an infinite cosmos. A little consideration might make “Cosmos” and “God” interchangeable in such a way as to answer Kallog’s question:

Originally Posted By: K
Can you also confirm that GOD has no consciousness, no ability to make decisions, doesn't influence people's thoughts, and doesn't interact with the world in any way?


If the cosmos is truly infinite, then there are no divisions, and there is no passage of time. Every “part” is the whole, so the various parts of Kallog’s question would be answered as follows:

The cosmos has consciousness because we are conscious; it makes decisions because we make decisions; it influences people’s thoughts because all thoughts are the thoughts of the cosmos and it interacts with the world because the world, like everything, is the cosmos.

If I said that that was what I believed, I would be expressing just another belief system.
If I claimed that I could provide scientific proof, I would be making a claim I could not substantiate.
I find myself wondering, though, if this is the sort of statement that Kallog is hoping to draw from Rev.
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#37706 - 03/06/11 04:28 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Bill S.]
kallog Offline
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Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: Bill S.

To a great extent this supports my long held belief that God is defined by the pre-conceptions of individuals and groups; many of whom then decide that their beliefs are the only right ones.

I think so. Which is why it's not reality. It's just people's imaginations. Some people believe the earth is round, and they have evidence to support it. Some people believe God created the Earth. That one is distinctly different because there isn't any evidence to support it. Some people believe in an undefined GOD. That too has no evidence to support it. There's a clear distinction between beliefs based on some possiblity of being correct and beliefs based on nothing outside of our own minds.


Quote:

The cosmos has consciousness because we are conscious; it makes decisions because we make decisions; it influences

Strangely, that might actually be something you can prove! Just from the definitions of the words. But it doesn't lead to anything that we didn't already know. Even if it turns out the cosmos is just a little shell around the earth, it still contains people who have consciousness and are, by definition, part of it.

And yes, that is what I was trying to get at with Rev. I have a feeling that that's what his idea really is, but somehow he keeps connecting it with all sorts of social issues and morals and stuff which no more depend on that GOD-nature duality than they depend on the existance of humans to have feelings in the first place.

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#37709 - 03/06/11 04:44 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: kallog]
Bill S. Offline
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Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: K
that might actually be something you can prove!


I would be fascinated to see that proof. I have worked through a number of logical sequences that might lead to that conclusion, but somewhere along the line there always seems to be a point at which someone (possibly that argumentative chap, Kallog) can say: That doesn't necessarily follow.
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#37801 - 03/13/11 10:09 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Bill S.]
kallog Offline
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"The cosmos has consciousness because we are conscious; it makes decisions because we make decisions; "

Quote:
I would be fascinated to see that proof.


I'll have a crack at it, but it might be a lot more trivial and unenlightening than you expected :P

1) We are conscious
2) We are part of the cosmos
3) Anything that has a conscious part is itself conscious.
Therefore, behold! The cosmos is conscious!

1) and 2) are obvious. 3) is true because we describe people as conscious even tho it's only parts our brains that are. The extra unconscious arms and legs don't stop us from being conscious.

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#37805 - 03/14/11 12:00 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: kallog]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
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Loc: Essex, UK
It's the next bit that introduces the problems. Points 1,2 & 3 remain, but 4 goes something like this:

If the cosmos is infinite, then what we perceive as parts are not distinct. Every "part" is the whole, so every part has consciousness, even though we cannot directly recognise it.
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There never was nothing.

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#37951 - 03/26/11 10:49 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Until March 26, I will be on vacation. Treasure Island, just west of St. Petersburg, Florida. Meanwhile, everybody relax! I will do my best so to do! smile
Jean and I arrived home by plane, yesterday. We had an excellent three weeks on the beach not far from Central Avenue just west of St. Pete's, Florida.
http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=treasure+island,+florida&oe=utf-8&rls=com.mandriva:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Treasure+Island,+FL,+USA&gl=ca&ei=71SOTaj4MYmH0QG0sNi5Cw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CCYQ8gEwAA

BTW, while on holiday I had the pleasure of having numerous, lively and interesting dialogues with some very and bright people. As I walked around the area I found that many people are interested in talking about topics having to do with science, holistic health, politics and economic prosperity--the kind of topics we often talk about here.

One of the contacts I made--his parents were from Canada--is a Certified Mediator with the Florida County Court, the Circuit Court and the USA Supreme Court. I was glad to hear he is working in cooperation with all the major religions interested in social justice issues.

Since the expert-caused financial melt down of 2008, our American cousins--rich and poor alike all over the world--have lost their faith in the Wall Streets of the world. Admitting that serious mistakes were made, all now concerned with what has happened--and continues to happen--to the political economy.

It now appears that many people--including at least some in the rich and powerful 2%--are finally beginning to discover that greed is not "good" and that power--unrestrained by love-guided morals--can destroy those who wield it, not just the powerless.

Question: Has anyone checked out www.torontodollar.com --advocating a democratic approach to the political economy which we chat about here? How many are aware of the complementary community currency movement and the role it could play in promoting a truly democratic society?


Edited by Revlgking (03/27/11 03:55 AM)
Edit Reason: Always good to do
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#37957 - 03/28/11 09:57 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
kallog Offline
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Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
that greed is not "good" and that power--unrestrained by love-guided morals--can destroy those who wield it, not just the powerless.

That just sounds like communism, which we know from plenty of experiments, large and small, doesn't produce good quality life in a sustainable way.

Despite the doomsayers about recessions, I and nearly everyone I know still has a fridge, a job, a computer, even this amazing internet thing! Nearly everyone in the world who already had those things still does. The world is wonderful because of all that greed. One speed bump doesn't mean we should never have bothered. You're just doing what religious people commonly do and taking advantage of crises to say "It would have been better my way!"

The Toronto dollar sound similar to things we have called "store cards" and "gift vouchers". Same value as normal currency but you're locked into spending them at certain shops (or groups of participating shops), and that helps those particular businesses at the expense of everyone else, including the consumer.

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#37963 - 03/28/11 10:36 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: kallog]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: kallog
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
that greed is not "good" and that power--unrestrained by love-guided morals--can destroy even those who wield it, not just the powerless.
You say that to you this "sounds like communism".

Communism? That is the last thing I had in mind. I equate Communism with Nazism--corporate-dominated and both undemocratic forms of socialism.

Quote:
Despite the doomsayers about recessions, I and nearly everyone I know still has a fridge, a job, a computer, even this amazing internet thing! Nearly everyone in the world who already had those things still does. The world is wonderful because of all that greed.
Do you call this "greed"? I am all in favour of all of us, not just the privileged few, having the kinds of things you like having.

Quote:
One speed bump doesn't mean we should never have bothered.
I agree.

Quote:
You're just doing what religious people commonly do and taking advantage of crises to say "It would have been better my way!"
This was not my point, at all! Torontodollars, like cash can, if merchants so wish, be redeemed for Canadian dollars. However, when all involved circulate them they will distribute all resources fairly and reward workers and merchants alike by employing all looking for work. Such work increases productivity.

This is what I call 'democratic capitalism'--the kind mentioned in the Bible and called Temple money. Later, I will describe how ethical Temple money was designed to provide prosperity for all--rich and poor.

BTW, you mentioned "religious people" as if we are all hypocrites and should be treated with disdain. Of course, I agree that some religious people are hypocrites. But are all atheists and agnostics saints?

Quote:
The Toronto dollar sounds similar to things we have called "store cards" and "gift vouchers".
Not quite! Because they are the backed by Canadian dollars they are not just vouchers--they can be circulated.


Quote:
Same value as normal currency but you're locked into spending them at certain shops (or groups of participating shops), and that helps those particular businesses at the expense of everyone else, including the consumer.

Not true! The Torontodollars system is available for all who freely choose to use the system.

Thanks for the interesting dialogue.


Edited by Revlgking (03/29/11 03:26 AM)
Edit Reason: Always good to do
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#37971 - 03/29/11 01:50 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
kallog Offline
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Posts: 1100
OK I think I see how Toronto Dollars works. Never heard of temple dollars but maybe it's the same.

A bit like a lottery to pay money to charity with the hope of not having to actually pay it. Some poor [censored] ends up footing the bill when he's holding a pile of expired dollars or the system collapses and he only gets 90% of their face value back.

A bit like the Lehman Brothers minibonds investors wink

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#37973 - 03/29/11 02:13 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
kallog Offline
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Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Communism? That is the last thing I had in mind. I equate Communism with Nazism--corporate-dominated and both undemocratic forms of socialism.

Part of the idea of communism was that people choose the best way to do things by considering the benefit to others. It's that which doesn't work. Even with good intentions people don't have enough information, information processing capability or motivation to do it as successfully as capitalism does.

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#37974 - 03/30/11 03:05 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: kallog]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: kallog
OK I think I see how Toronto Dollars works. Never heard of temple dollars but maybe it's the same.
Kallog, temple money, in the form of pure silver, gold, copper and bronze coins, was used in an interest-free money system operated at the Temple in Jerusalem. This system was used in Bible times for the just distribution of goods and services. When thieves corrupted the system, Jesus turned over the tables of the moneychangers, who he called thieves. This is what got him arrested and crucified. See Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Kallog, you go on
Quote:
A bit like a lottery to pay money to charity with the hope of not having to actually pay it.

Some poor [censored] ends up footing the bill when he's holding a pile of expired dollars or the system collapses and he only gets 90% of their face value back.

A bit like the Lehman Brothers minibonds investors wink
Kallog, none of the above bears even a close resemblance as to what the Toronto Dollar experiment, which has been going on since 1998, is all about. Participating merchants have no complaints.

Speaking as one who lives outside the Toronto Market and who has attended numerous Toronto-Dollar events: The merchants love what they get in return for being involved, including the free advertising that they get by using the system. Otherwise they would not stay involved.

BTW, The merchants only pay the 10% fee if they want to opt out of the system. Meanwhile, they are free to spend all the dollars they have and a lot of products get moved.

BTW, how much reading have you actually done about the history, nature and function of money, especially the kind we call complementary community currency (CCC)?

NO REAL COMMUNITY NEED EVER BORROW AND PAY INTEREST ON MONEY TO MONEY-MANIPULATORS WHO LIVE OUTSIDE IT. IT IS POSSIBLE FOR ANY REAL COMMUNITY TO CREATE ITS OWN INTEREST-FREE MONEY. TO FIND OUT HOW, READ THE FOLLOWING:

1. www.transaction.net The work of Professor Bernard Lietaer, a reformed money-manipulator

2. http://www.alor.org/Library/The%20Guernsey%20Market%20House%20Scheme%20.htm

3. http://www.xat.org/xat/usury.html A MUST-READ SHORT HISTORY of how we have been duped. Note what happened to Lincoln and others who stood up to and opposed the money-manipulators.

4. http://www.hazelhenderson.com/editorials/politics_of_money.html


Edited by Revlgking (03/30/11 03:18 AM)
Edit Reason: Always a good idea!
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#37997 - 03/31/11 02:52 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
kallog Offline
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First of all we'd better clarify that this is an athiest concept and you can't claim any more connection between it and your GOD idea than I can with my nature idea.

Quote:
Kallog, none of the above bears even a close resemblance as to what the Toronto Dollar experiment, which has been going on since 1998, is all about. Participating merchants have no complaints.

It says on their website that they keep only 90% squirreled away so people can cash out. That means somebody must end up paying the 10% that goes to charity. Which is the people who cash out, right? Maybe the merchant who discovers he's not quite in the right field to have enough ccc-minded customers. I guess the expiry dates just mean you can swap them for new notes without paying 10%?



Quote:

Meanwhile, they are free to spend all the dollars they have and a lot of products get moved.

Of course. That statement carries no meaning.

Quote:

BTW, how much reading have you actually done about the history, nature and function of money

It's not about reading. I'm not interested in deferring to somebody else's opinion. I want to understand how it works and why it's not as great as it sounds. I'm deeply suspicious of this system as being anything more than a way for retail shops to attract customers who like the idea of supporting charity without directly seeing their own money going down the hole.

Quote:

NO REAL COMMUNITY NEED EVER BORROW AND PAY INTEREST ON MONEY TO MONEY-MANIPULATORS WHO LIVE OUTSIDE IT.

What does it matter if somebody lives inside or outside the community? Are some people more deserving than others?
Interest free money? Where does this break down? Can the 'community' be a whole country? Can everyody just borrow money without interest? At what level do the nice promises break down and it just stops working?

That's a lot of questions. But you stated some very bold promises. If it could work in its current form, on a usefully large scale, then it would have done so already. Not just a few hundred businesses in one town, but it would have become the defacto standard way of trading all over the world.



Edited by kallog (03/31/11 02:55 PM)

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#38010 - 04/01/11 03:38 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: kallog]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
ABOUT HAZEL HENDERSON www.hazelhenderson.com
=============================================

Anyone interested in understanding the nature and function of money: Please read the essays of Hazel Henderson.

For example, http://www.hazelhenderson.com/editorials/politics_of_money.html (2006--written before the Financial Meltdown of 2008, which she and others--including we members of www.flfcanada.com --predicted).

http://www.hazelhenderson.com/editorials/politics_of_economics.html (2009--after the Meltdown.) In this essay she answers the question: How come we still allow the big fish to keep on eating the little ones? And to allow the wolves to be in charge of raising the chicken?

BTW, look how long it took the people Europe to get rid of the criminal gangs--if they really have, yet--who ran the Roman Empire? Look how long the people of Libya put up with being ruled by a gang of criminals. Look how long the American slaves put up with their lot.

It seems that too many of us people have fish-like brains and bird-like brains. We expect to be eaten. For some reason many of us fear the freedom and power that a truly democratic kind of capitalism would give us. Many people will still remain wage and debt slaves until we all learn the simple truth about the nature and function of money.



Edited by Revlgking (04/01/11 03:41 AM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#38017 - 04/02/11 04:05 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
kallog Offline
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Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
I thought there might be something revealing in those documents so I actually read through 3 of them.

I don't recommend anybody bother with Henderson's "essays".
They're just lists of name droppings.

The History of Money Part II is clearly written with a bias and doesn't aid in understanding. It just points fingers without reasoning or counterargument, but with plenty of emotional language.

So what's the point of this DIY money? I'm not enlightened.

Does it apply to countries that aren't America?

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#38019 - 04/02/11 06:59 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: kallog]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Interesting that a thread about the philosophy of religions has developed into a discussion about money. I suppose one might charitably infer that it has something to do with making"...unto thyself friends of the mammon of iniquity". I have often wondered if Luke was being a bit sarcastic here.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#38023 - 04/03/11 03:14 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Bill S.]
kallog Offline
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Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
"...unto thyself friends of the mammon of iniquity". I have often wondered if Luke was being a bit sarcastic here.


Luke Skywalker? Mammon? Iniquity? Nutty!

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