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BILL, IN MY OPINION, ALL GOOD RELIGION AND PHILOSOPHY MUST INCLUDE A DISCUSSION OF HOW WE EARN AND SPEND MONEY--THE TOOL WE USE TO MEASURE WHAT WE VALUE. The BIBLE, THE KORAN AND THE PHILOSOPHERS, have a lot to say about the use and abuse of power and wealth.

I assume you have noticed that much of the Bible--from Genesis to Revelation--like the Koran, is about the search for morality, justice and peace.

The prophets and all the great philosophers preached--not without great risk to themselves--and wrote about the need for people to be good in though, word and deed and to use honest weights and measures. They all warned those with power and money not to exploit the poor; that without justice there would be no peace.

MONEY AND WEALTH, PER SE, ARE NOT EVIL--what we do with them can be good, or evil. The choice is ours.

As his parables, especially the ones about the use of money, clearly show Jesus was not against people of wealth who earned their money honestly, spent it justly and in the service of the whole community. I am not a BIG-brother socialist. The only thing we need to take from the rich--and the good and moral rich will give it, freely--is their knowledge of how to create real wealth, for the whole community.

But we should all be on the alert to prevent corruption. Note that John 2:13-25; Matt. 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-17 and Luke 19:46-46 makes it clear that Jesus began and ended his ministry by attacking--an act that cost him his life--the corruption practiced by the "moneychangers", the Temple bankers, who he specifically called "thieves. They were supposed to make sure the coins were the real thing--made with pure silver, gold, copper and bronze.

Before the invention of paper money, the debasing of metals caused the evil of inflation (the theft of value) and was a primary cause of fall of Rome.

BTW HAVE YOU NEVER HEARD OF COLONIAL SCRIP? (CS)
===============================================
Prior to the American War of Independence, people in the American colonies--when they were free to create and use their own interest-free community currencies--were far more prosperous than the people of the motherland, England, who, including the king and the nobility, were always in debt to the banks.

Unlike the Federal Reserve (a group of private banks) bank notes, CS notes--based on what the community produced--were issued debt and interest free.

The merchant bankers of England set out to destroy the Colonial Script System. This, not just the import taxes, is what led to the American Revolution.

However, over time, groups of powerful Americans merchants followed the way of those in England. Eventually they persuaded (no doubt using bribery) the new governing class--always in need of money to support their life-style and their new wars to build America--to give them charters to control banking and to set up an interest-based banking system. Once again the people were back in a time of booms and busts--mostly the latter. It is no wonder that the American private Central Banking system rapidly built up a debt which can never be repaid.

CHECK OUT:
http://www.kamron.com/Liberty/colonial_script.htm


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"Luke Skywalker? Mammon? Iniquity? Nutty!"

No, it wasn't St Luke who was being funny! It was St Kallog. smile


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Originally Posted By: kallog
First of all we'd better clarify that this is an athiest concept and you can't claim any more connection between it and your GOD idea than I can with my nature idea....
Then you, kallog, ask:
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1.What does it matter if somebody lives inside or outside the community?
IMO, It doesn't! What matters is that people are within trading distance.
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2.Are some people more deserving than others?
We all deserve to have a system with honest weights and measures and a level playing field. This is far from true in the present monetary system in which the ones who have the "gold" make the rules
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3.Interest free money?
Our current financial system is run more like a gambling casino than a legitimate business. The cost for operating an honest money system would come from fixed fees and dividends earned when all involved--investors, management and labour--create new wealth
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4. Where does this break down?
Do families that are made up of people who are healthy--physically, mentally and spiritually (lovingly supportive of one another)--break down?
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5.Can the 'community' be a whole country?
The name 'Canada' comes from the Algonquin word 'kanata' meaning "my community". You are on the right track. Globally speaking, a Canadian dollar is simply a currency local to Canada. Another reason why having a currency local to Toronto, or any other community, is a good idea.
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6.Can everyody just borrow money without interest?
The great religions, the prophets and the philosophers all agree: The paying a fee for the time factor involved in the circulation of money is THE BIG FLAW. It puts all the risk on the borrowers and makes them vulnerable to being cheated. Lenders as well as borrowers must share the risk involved. This is what makes the whole process a moral issue.
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7.At what level do the nice promises break down and it just stops working?
DON'T TELL ME that you think that the flawed system we now have is working! Where have you been, asleep? Have you not heard of booms and busts? Have you forgotten 2008 already? And do I need to remind you of Wall Street, Goldman Sachs, the numerous Madoffs and other spinners of financial scams that even NOW, as I write this, are crippling many who assume they will never be the victims of derivatives, toxic mortgages and the like?

BTW, thanks for the easy question. smile laugh
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But you stated some very bold promises. If it could work in its current form, on a usefully large scale, then it would have done so already.

Not just a few hundred businesses in one town, but it would have become the defacto standard way of trading all over the world.
My vision? When the have-nots eventually wake up and overcome the resistance of the status quo who profit from the present system, this system, which is one that, without undue risk, can easily be tested, will be adopted.


Last edited by Revlgking; 04/04/11 05:49 AM. Reason: Always good to do

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Rev, I applaud your vision, but history tells us, repeatedly, not only that you and I are unlikely to be around long enough to see it come to fruition, but so are many generations to come. Perhaps the best we can do is to try to make that small part of the world over which we have some influence a better place, and encourage others to do the same.


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Bill S:

Thanks for your encouraging comment. It is always good to get a pat on the back. It is much better than a kick in the ass. laugh BTW, constructive criticism is always welcome.

Now it is my turn to encourage you: Don't give up hope. There are new leaders out there--ones who also need to be encouraged. Maybe they got the message the FLF started preaching in the early 1970's. We did get to speak to professors and students at the U of T, more than once, over the years. Here is the latest news:

FULL-PAGE STORY IN THE NATIONAL POST (Canada) today
===================================================
Take note of this article below: It is about obesity especially among our youth. The article is an excerpt from the book XXL:OBESITY AND THE LIMITS OF SHAME--by Neil Seeman and Patrick Luciani, professors of the University of Toronto.

BTW, when I was growing up--I was a teenager, during WW 2, 10,000,000 was the total population of Canada. At the time, there were 10, 000 people on www.bellisland.net and I do not recall anyone who was really obese.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Overcoming+obesity/4553120/story.html

An estimated 11 million Canadians,out of 33 million, are overweight, and about half a million are severely obese - XXL

HEALTH ISSUES, ESPECIALLY OBESITY & ECONOMICS
=============================================
Note the clever use of Healthy-Living-Vouchers (HLVs)--not unlike what the Family Life Foundation www.flfcanda.com has been recommending since the 1970's.

WHY NOT HOLISTIC LIVING VOUCHERS?
=================================
Churches could not issue HLVs from their mission funds? And what would be wrong with giving God a little credit and calling them GOD-Dollars? The acronym, GOD, could stand for Golden-Rule dollars and/or golden-opportunity dollars. Check out www.torontodollar.com --a similar kind of local currency operating in Toronto since 1998.

Interestingly, the following thread, where I write about this in detail, has over 2,150,000 hits:

http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=38030#Post38030
=================================
Speaking of youth and obesity: Just last week, while I was on vacation in Florida and having a walk on the wide Treasure-Island beach which was near where I was staying, I spoke to a youth--he was alone and drinking a large soft-drink he bought at the beach canteen. In a brief chat I soon found out he weighed nearly 400 pounds. Because of a bad knee he had to use crutches.

When he seemed to welcome my interest in having a chat with him about his problem, I dared to ask: How addicted are you to food? Do you eat a lot?

"No, I actually don't...", he said, "but I am really addicted to sweet drinks, especially Dr. Pepper."

When I told him about my study of psychology and pneumatology, I was pleasantly surprised that he was open and welcomed anything that I had to offer which could possibly help him take charge of his cravings.

Then, with his permission, I actually gave him a brief sample of what I call pneumatherapy (I make no charge for this)--that is self-hypnosis, the kind without the hocus pocus (google on Dr. Milton Erickson's work). Following this he gave me his e-mail address so that I could send him more information, which I have just done. It would be interesting to know if that brief encounter really helps. It sure helps me (pneumatologically) to know that I made the offer.


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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
The great religions, the prophets and the philosophers all agree: The paying a fee for the time factor involved in the circulation of money is THE BIG FLAW. It puts all the risk on the borrowers and makes them vulnerable to being cheated. Lenders as well as borrowers must share the risk involved.


First, it doesn't matter what Mohammed or Plato agreed with. Without reasons they're just a worthless opinions.

Lenders and borrowers do usually share the risk. Lenders who lend money for people to buy houses take the risk of the borrower being unable to repay it and the house's value dropping. Which is what happened a couple of years ago in America. Lenders lost money as well as borrowers. They both shared the risk.

With no interest at all, the borrower is taking no risk. So he can easily waste the money without fear of getting further into debt - just pay it back one day in the future when he finds some more money.

Quote:

DON'T TELL ME that you think that the flawed system we now have is working! Where have you been, asleep? Have you not heard of booms and busts? Have you forgotten 2008 already? And do I need to remind you of Wall Street, Goldman Sachs, the numerous Madoffs and other spinners of financial scams that even NOW, as I write this, are crippling many who assume they will never be the victims of derivatives, toxic mortgages and the like?


It seems bad because it's on TV and it was sudden. But has it really affected your life? Not mine. Sure some rich or greedy Americans lost some money, but they still ended up better off than most of the world's poor. Giving money to con-men (Madoff) is a problem that's independent of charging interest, so try not to confuse the issue with things like that.

Last edited by kallog; 04/05/11 04:07 AM.
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Originally Posted By: kallog
...Lenders and borrowers do usually share the risk. Lenders who lend money for people to buy houses take the risk of the borrower being unable to repay it and the house's value dropping. Which is what happened a couple of years ago in America. Lenders lost money as well as borrowers. They both shared the risk.

With no interest at all, the borrower is taking no risk.
Kallog, please back up your opinion--and I respect all opinions, even when I differ--with some evidence.

Did you know that there are some American banks which do loan interest-free money? For example,
http://www.university-bank.com/index.html

I met, and chatted, with the president of the bank, above, at the founding convention of www.UFANA.org, here in Toronto.
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"The World Comes to Toronto: The Growth and Potential of Islamic Finance will be on display at:
TORONTO, February 26, 2010 – Politicians, Bankers, Real Estate Agents, and members of the global financial community will convene in Toronto at the inaugural Usury-Free Association of North America (UFANA) conference on March 30th and March 31st at Sheraton Centre Hotel in downtown Toronto...."
Please keep in mind that interest-free does not mean cost-free. Also keep in mind that we are talking about a different system here. Costs are covered by fees and profits are earned as dividends. When done right--and any system can be corrupted by corrupt people--it is simply more transparent and less likely to be corrupt.

THE FAMILY LIFE FOUNDATION www.flfcanada.com as one of the advocates of good ethics, is also one of the founders of UFANA. I represent the FLF (Inter-faith & Christian) as one of the directors of UFANA. In addition, there are Muslim clergy, imams.

GOD IS LOVE (1 John 4:7-21)
Yes, it seems that Agape-love can build bridges to justice and peace.


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Originally Posted By: Ellis
I'm a bit scared to post really!!! But here goes.

Atheism is not a religion. It is not a faith. It is not a belief. It's a recognition of fact.

Many people get comfort and strength from religion. I am not one of them but I repect their belief in a supernatural being and do not characterise their belief as undesirable because I do not share it. Neither do I characterise their deeply felt conviction of the reality of the existence of a god as a deluded belief, when in fact it is for many their reason for living- the meaning of life. I just don't share it because I approach this topic differently.

I assume there is no god. Simple. As I said in the other post-no one can prove there is, I can't prove there isn't--but to me it seems infinitely more likely that I am completely right on this one. I simply don't have any reason to think that the supernatural world exists and I cannot understand why anyone has difficulty understanding that.

Why tie yourselves up in knots and get angry about this? God had a good go- he/she/it failed to convince some people of his/her/ its existence. You who believe know I'm wrong, so tell me why you think I'm wrong. Prove it to me if it means so much to you and why does it mean so much to you that I "believe" in something.
Ellis, do you remember this? I wonder what happened to D.A. Morgan--what a curmudgeon? That was way back in 2006, WOW!


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Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Kallog, please back up your opinion--and I respect all opinions, even when I differ--with some evidence.

That interest free means no risk to the borrower? Sure. If you had an interest free loan and you couldn't repay it, you could just wait a few years and hope you got some more money. If not, doesn't matter, your debt doesn't increase.

If, however there are other forms of 'interest' like late payment fees, then it's just as risky as loans with interest.

Lenders lost money in the house price collapse in America? Yea, that's why many banks got into trouble. They were lending to pay for houses that ended up losing value without the debt ever being repayed. The money they used may have come from other investors, then it's those people who lost what they lent.

There's no need to feel sympathy for the home buyers. They were engaging in risky business with the aim of making themselves richer without actually doing anything productive - just buy a house, then wait for it's value to climb till you retire a freehold homeowner able to cash in on it again.

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Yes I remember Rev--- but I felt I was still re-posting the same points of view over and over again, so I stopped! I still remain an unrepentant happy atheist, as the various arguments failed to convince me that there is some entity, thing or state that planned this whole universe. Partly I think I am so unconvinced because I don't feel it has really been planned very well. Surely it should have been possible to halt the determination of the inhabitants of a small insignificant planet to manically consume themselves into oblivion? Or perhaps this is when he/she/it reboots and starts again (and maybe not for the first time eh Mike?

Apart from such cynicism I am doing well. I read your posts Rev, and mostly enjoy them.... but I always admire your spirit!

P.S. For some reason I feel that DAM found friendship here on line. It's a pity he got a bit snarly!

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Originally Posted By: kallog

Yea, that's why many banks got into trouble....
Sad, eh?

But seriously! Take a look at:

http://www.odemagazine.com/doc/26/money_should_work_for_us_not_the_other_way_around


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It would be nice if you or somebody could explain how it's supposed to work - without any salesmanship. As soon as I see statements like "privy to the deepest secrets of the financial world." I realize the story doesn't have enough information to stand on its own feet.

That article addresses none of the obvious concerns it raises. Like what if you didn't save enough elderly care dollars by the time you became old? Who decides what you're allowed to trade with each type of currency? It can't be a free decision or people would be spending their gym dollars on cigarettes. But if it's centrally decided then it all falls into the same inefficiencies and retarded development of communism.

So can you describe how it would work, or do you not understand what you're promoting?

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You can discuss these issues until you are old and grey - those who are not, already smile - without getting anywhere. It has little to do with economics, or religion. You will never change things significantly until you change the way we treat our children.

Spend an hour or so in your local supermarket at the weekend, or during school holidays. Listen to the way many parents talk to their children. Notice particularly the lack of respect. Then ask yourself why so many grow up into angry, bullying, self-centred adults who pollute our churches with hatred and our society with greed.


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Bill, you say
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
You can discuss these issues until you are old and grey - those who are not, already smile - without getting anywhere.
But in the meantime, if done in the spirit of agape--love, based simply on good will, not the emotions--isn't it fun having dialogues with family and friends? You say
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It has little to do with economics, or religion. You will never change things significantly until you change the way we treat our children.
I agree: Family life is extremely important. This is why, in 1973, I helped found the Family Life Foundation --flfcanada.com. IMO, family life has a lot to do with economics and religion. Would you like to add more to this?
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Spend an hour or so in your local supermarket at the weekend, or during school holidays. Listen to the way many parents talk to their children. Notice particularly the lack of respect...
I haven't experienced this kind of behaviour here is Toronto, or even when I recently vacationed in Florida. I have noticed too many obese people filling their carts with too many overly-processed and cardiovascular-threatening so-called "foods". Too many people are digging their early graves with their teeth.
[Pneumatherapy--so simple it can be done over the phone--could help people overcome addictive cravings.]

I'm curious: Were do you do your shopping.I suspect that much of the abuse that goes on in families happens in the privacy of people's own homes.

BTW, as a volunteer counselor with the flf I do a lot of counseling with people in dysfunctional families.

I am happy to report--and I hope I am not boasting--that I was raised in a family--number 7 of eight children--that was, despite a third-world level of poverty, a relatively happy one.

Because we got good educations, my wife and I were able to raise two (daughter and son) well-educated children. They are now in their 50's and raising their own well-educated children. The mother of my son's three children, who he met at university, was born a Muslim (Sufi) in Tehran, Iran. We have no problem integrating Sufism and Christianity. Have you heard of the great Sufi poet, Rumi?

Philosophical outlook

Rumi, like unitheists, was an evolutionary thinker in the sense that he believed that the spirit after devolution from the divine Ego undergoes an evolutionary process by which it comes nearer and nearer to the same divine Ego.

All matter in the universe obeys this law and this movement is due to an inbuilt urge (which Rumi calls "love") to evolve and seek enjoinment with the divinity from which it has emerged. Evolution into a human being from an animal is only one stage in this process. The doctrine of the Fall of Adam is reinterpreted as the devolution of the Ego from the universal ground of divinity and is a universal, cosmic phenomenon.

The French philosopher Henri Bergson's idea of life being creative and evolutionary is similar, though unlike Bergson, Rumi believes that there is a specific goal to the process: the attainment of God. For Rumi, God is the ground as well as the goal of all existence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi#Teachings

Last edited by Revlgking; 04/09/11 04:53 PM. Reason: Always good to do

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Originally Posted By: Revlgking

All matter in the universe obeys this law and this movement is due to an inbuilt urge (which Rumi calls "love") to evolve and seek enjoinment with the divinity from which it has emerged. Evolution into a human being from an animal is


But why would you repeat such nonsense? Every person has their own silly ideas and fantasies about things they know nothing about. Unlike this Rumi, most of us recognize what they are and don't embarrass ourselves by publishing them.

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Originally Posted By: kallog
...Every person has their own silly ideas and fantasies about things they know nothing about. Unlike this Rumi, most of us recognize what they are and don't embarrass ourselves by publishing them.
Kallog, Obviously you are incapable of being embarrassed. Otherwise you would not have just told us, clearly, who you are! Or do you need someone to draw you a picture?


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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Originally Posted By: kallog
...Every person has their own silly ideas and fantasies about things they know nothing about. Unlike this Rumi, most of us recognize what they are and don't embarrass ourselves by publishing them.
Kallog, Obviously you are incapable of being embarrassed. Otherwise you would not have just told us, clearly, who you are! Or do you need someone to draw you a picture?


I don't understand what you mean. But clearly Rumi (and all his contemporaries) knew little or nothing about the universe, matter, evolution or a divine ego. So everyone can see his ideas are just the same kind of made up silliness that many of us have probably daydreamed about when we were kids.

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Originally Posted By: K
So everyone can see his ideas are just the same kind of made up silliness that many of us have probably daydreamed about when we were kids.


Manifestly, not everyone can see this. Predisposing factors can be very powerful influences. I would be arrogant if I expected everyone to accept my point of view, and condemned those who didn't. Perhaps this is at least part of the reason why philosophical and theological threads tend to be among the longest, even in a science forum.


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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Originally Posted By: K
So everyone can see his ideas are just the same kind of made up silliness that many of us have probably daydreamed about when we were kids.
Manifestly, not everyone can see this. Predisposing factors can be very powerful influences. I would be arrogant if I expected everyone to accept my point of view, and condemned those who didn't...
Thanks for your wisdom, Bill. I agree, arrogance--the Bible calls it 'pride'. It is #1 on the list of deadly sins--is a human weakness we all need to note and wisely deal with.

Then you add: "Perhaps this is at least part of the reason why philosophical and theological threads tend to be among the longest, even in a science forum."

Do you mean long lasting, with more hits? Or longest in content? Or both?

Last edited by Revlgking; 04/11/11 02:36 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Rev
Do you mean long lasting, with more hits? Or longest in content? Or both?


I think I meant both, but just in case anyone should think I meant containing the longest individual posts, I have just countered that in a new thread. smile


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