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BTW, Brain/Meta allows more space for signature: Here is what I use there: For me, G?D (Love) is the Cosmos (the order of things)--physically, mentally, and spiritually, past, present and future. I look for G?D in persons, including myself. The results: I express compassionate love to ALL that is, and to expect others to do likewise. Together, we will bring order out of chaos. http://www.flfcanada.comhttp://www.unitheist.org/whatis.html

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there are languages not created by man that man found to further its advance technologically: math, physics,biology and so on. Did men invent these languages? or were they already here used by some force to build our system of things?

to think that there is nothing behind our marvelous world and universe is to deny your own existence. Everything within it follows laws and languages that men have jus started to understand and some that we might never come to understand. We breath air, we see its force move things, we see it give life, yet we dont see it do we? does that mean it is not there?

Its funny because men "create" things in this world to survive in it, we dont simply live out of the nothingness, we must create our own food we must create our children we must create our tools to create our buildings.
To think life just simply appeared out of some chance is to be starving and waiting for food to simply pop out of knowhere in the same form. It is not plausable.

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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
BTW, Brain/Meta allows more space for signature: Here is what I use there: For me, G?D (Love) is the Cosmos (the order of things)--physically, mentally, and spiritually, past, present and future. I look for G?D in persons, including myself. The results: I express compassionate love to ALL that is, and to expect others to do likewise. Together, we will bring order out of chaos. http://www.flfcanada.comhttp://www.unitheist.org/whatis.html


Sounds as if you have invented your own religion. If so, does it make sense that throughout human history no one has been able to understand the truth - that is until you came along?

Blacknad.

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Revlgking wrote:
"I think of theology and pneumatology as soft sciences"

You can think that if you wish. But you won't find support for that idea. Science is a well defined word. Trying to change the word's definition is an exercise in spin control ... not reality.


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Blacknad wrote:
"Sounds as if you have invented your own religion. If so, does it make sense that throughout human history no one has been able to understand the truth - that is until you came along?"

I makes perfect sense to me. Religion has always been about humans claiming that the religion's founder had knowledge that others don't have.

It was that way with tribal medicine men/witch doctors/shamman
It was that way with Moses
It was that way with the apostles
The more things change the more they stay the same.

Heck I'm trying to get people to worship the one true god: The invisible purple rhinoceros. ;-)


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Nothing wrong with having your very own personal religion/belief. Going back to the dawn of time humans have attempted to explain ther own existence by inventing a god as their creator. Life as it is observable is obviously too complex for us to understand so, the argument goes,there something we cannot understand which has created it---that's the whole argument. I think it's rubbish but I can't prove it wrong..and you are right DA it works as well for the purple supreme being as it does for the Lord God of Hosts.

Accept we are the children of choas. There is no designer, life is what we make of it, if we can accept that we will not need to blame the Invisible Friend for misfortune. Instead we will take responsibility ourselves, stop wasting time with religious observance and cooperate with each other instead of fighting! Ah the simplicity.

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Post deleted by Amaranth Rose II

Ellis #17736 01/18/07 11:04 PM
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Now I am cross!! The display said that it couldn't find the page. So I hit the submit button again and there are 2 posts!! Now- even I do not think what I have to say needs to be repeated twice!!

Ellis #17741 01/19/07 05:28 AM
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Ellis writes
Quote:
Accept (the fact that) we are the children of choas. There is no designer, life is what we make of it...
Ellis, I presume that by saying this you are telling us that you are a moral/ethical and positive atheist. Right? You admit that you cannot prove there is no god, therefore, you have the BELIEF/FAITH that there is no god.

Incidentally, I feel you are advocating what is called the Golden Rule. And yes, I accept it is possible for atheists to keep it.

Practically speaking, panentheism/unitheism--that is, process theology--is on the same track. However, process theology focusses on, believes in, and is willing to ACT on the positive possibility that the Cosmos, in its mysterious totality, is G?D. If we approach G?D, with faith, hope and love, we can create a Garden of Eden; if we appraoch it with cynicism, fear, doubt and despair, we make it a Hell.

IMHO, G?D stands for moral/GOODNESS, mathematical/ORDER and artistic/DESIGN. By the way, about evidence for G?D:

1. With the help of my physical senses, I am fairly certain that the physical Cosmos is there. Therefore, I have physical evidence for G?D.

2. With the help of the sciences, I am finding out more and more about the nature and function of the Cosmos, daily.Therefore, I have mental evidence for G?D.

3. Inspired by what Kant called, "the moral imperative" I have a strong feeling that, as St. Paul puts it in Romans 8: "G?D in and through all things works together for good". This gives me moral evidence for G?D.

I may not be free to DO all the good I ought to do, but I do have the power to make the choice to do them. And I have the feeling that, if I willingly make that choice, I will be given the power, from the Spirit of G?D within me. In others words, I will be given the power to choose to be loving--towards my world, my fellow human beings, and myself.

I NEED TO BE AWARE OF IDOLATRY
IMHO, I always need to be careful. Whether I create a god out of wood or stone, or with my imagination, it is still idolatry. G?D, for me, must not a personal or objective being which I can create, even with my mind. G?D in not one who exists in time and space. G?D, as total universal and all-encompassing, physical, mental and spiritual existence, itself, is the ineffable, the unimagineable.

BTW, I am not preaching a religion, or a dogma, here, which I expect others to accept without question, or else. I am simply proposing the free and open discussion of the philosophy/psychology, doctrines, rituals, and policies of all religions, including what I believe.

If your theism, or atheism, is helping you have faith, hope and love, and helping you bring some order (cosmos) out of the physical, moral and ethical chaos of life, well and good. This is what unitheism is doing for me.

Last edited by Revlgking; 01/19/07 06:40 AM.

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Revlgking wrote:
"You have the BELIEF/FAITH that there is no god."

This is a science site or did you miss that fact somehow? Do you think it appropriate to walk into a conversation someone else is having and interrupt and talk about the fact that your dog has fleas? Your behavior is rude, your nonsense totally inappropriate and you have been fairly warned. Were I the moderator of this forum I would take blunt instrument to your hijacking of this thread. But alas I am not the moderator and as the moderators are willing to let this sickness fester ... here's what you've earned.

We do not BELIEVE that there is no god as a matter of faith. We know that there is no god because there is not a single byte of credible evidence supporting the proposition that one does exist and neither do you.

Do you need evidence to know you are not your own great great grandfather? Do you need evidence to know that there isn't a invisible purple rhinoceros under your bed? If you believe god gave you your brain ... however misguided ... at least do your creator the honor of using it.

You wrote: "BTW, I am not preaching a religion, or a dogma" and that is true. What you are doing is being a troll.

Please don't insult us with your condescending new age woo-wooism: It is not appreciated. Either talk science or have the courtesy of getting lost.


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Ellis, thank you for your comment:
Quote:
Nothing wrong with having your very own personal religion/belief.
I concur. I am a great believer in the art of dialoguing untill some kind of understanding--not necessarily agreement--or even consesus is reached. IMHO, sincere differences are okay and can be enriching.

In my last post, which I addressed to YOU, as part of the dialogue I made a presumption and asked you a sincere question. I will leave it to YOU to decide whether or not you feel comfortable answering my question.

As I choose not to dialogue with posters, like DAM, who seem to prefer using rhetorical questions and argumentum ad hominems to cover up their apparent lack of substance, I will leave it YOU to tell me whether or not you want me to "get lost". If you say so, I am out of here.



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Revlgking
Your topic is not of science. I suggest you take it to some other forum where it might be more welcome. This board exists for the discussion of Science and Science-related topics, and your topic is neither.

Amaranth Rose
Moderator

Last edited by Amaranth Rose II; 01/19/07 05:29 PM.

If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose

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I have NO belief that there is no god. I know there isn't--just can't prove it!!! Ha1 Ha1

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Originally Posted By: Amaranth Rose II
Revlgking
Your topic is not of science....
My topic? This is not MY topic. It was started by Tim. And the vast majority of posts are not mine. IMHO, at 727 clicks it is a mighty popular one.

BTW 1, what constitutes a "Not-Quite-Science"?

I like to think that all science began as a philosophy and can become an art--the art of moral and ethical living.

BTW 2: Using the traditional word, God, I have a strong feeling that God and the total mysterious Cosmos are one and the same. This means that the "Evidence for God" is overwhelming.

Isaac Newton, Sir James Jeans, Einstein, A.N. Whithead, William James, Carl Jung, the Menningers of the famous clinic, Stephen Hawking, and many other brilliant scientists--certainly no atheists--held a similar concept. I use the special symbol simply in my signature to call attention to this--Goodness, Order and Design in all that is.

Maybe, with the number of brainy scientists, who believe that God is the One (unitheism), all discussion about theology should be in a hard-science section. smile

Last edited by Revlgking; 01/19/07 09:43 PM.

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Ellis #17756 01/19/07 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
I have NO belief that there is no god. I know there isn't--just can't prove it!!! Ha1 Ha1
Ellis, if you have no proof, all you have in an opinion, which I respect, and having an opinion is not unlike having a belief, which is okay in that it does help us get to know, eventually.:)

BTW, Ellis, I always ask atheists: "When you hear me say, 'I know there is GOD'--and this IS what I say--what kind of god do you imagine that I have in mind?" If you will accept my right to define GOD as I understand GOD to be, I can prove that GOD is.


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Revltroll wrote:
"I am a great believer in the art of dialoguing"

Dialoguing is NOT a word. It is just more new-age woo-woo imbecility. And what you are posting is not science.

Rose ... please kill this thread ... all of it ... without mercy. This isn't science. This isn't even "not-quite science." This is a malignant troll.


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Excellent stuff follows, from Stephen Hawking:
Quote:
Larry King: Do you believe in God?

Stephen Hawking: Yes, if by God is meant the embodiment of the laws of the universe.
Larry King Live, December 25, 1999
What a great mind.
======================================================
I am not sure what to call the following. It sounds like a DAM rant, without any substance, calling for CENSORSHIP--In the Land of the Free?:
Originally Posted By: DA Morgan
Revltroll wrote:

"I am a great believer in the art of dialoguing"

Dialoguing is NOT a word. It is just more new-age woo-woo imbecility. And what you are posting is not science.

Rose ... please kill this thread ... all of it ... without mercy. This isn't science. This isn't even "not-quite science." This is a malignant troll.
Originally Posted By: DA Morgan
Revltroll wrote:
"I am a great believer in the art of dialoguing"

Dialoguing is NOT a word. It is just more new-age woo-woo imbecility. And what you are posting is not science.

Rose ... please kill this thread ... all of it ... without mercy.

This isn't science. This isn't even "not-quite science." This is a malignant troll.


Rose, I got the same kind of rant when I dared to write what I write, here, in a forum set up by "Christian Heritage" fundamentalists.

This should tell us something about human nature. Out of fear that they had to protect The "TRUTH", I was censored. Surely, brave agnostics and atheists do not fear dialogue.

I am interested in knowing: What kind of fearful fundamentalism do we have here?

WE NEED A POLL: WHO IS IN FAVOUR OF CENSORSHIP?
DAM it, Rose...please don't kill this thread, without giving a warning. At least not until I have had the opporunity to put the content of it into my file. I need a few "good" examples of the way extremists think and behave, for a book I plan to write. smile



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I am in favor of censoring people who are off-topic

I am in favor of censoring people who abuse this forum by having by not disucssing science.

I am in favor of censoring people who abuse this forum by hijacking it to discuss the fact that their dog has fleas or to discuss cookie recipes or to promote on imbecilic nonsense.

I am not in favor of censoring you. I am in favor of removing all off-topic postings and trolls. You have chosen to post things that have no relationship with science. You have chosen to be off-topic. You have chosen to be a troll. Please don't add hypocrisy to your other sins by whining about the fact that someone doesn't like the fact that you are rude and inconsiderate of others.


DA Morgan
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I repeat and, I feel, right on topic:
Quote:
Larry King: Do you believe in God?

Stephen Hawking: Yes, if by God is meant the embodiment of the laws of the universe. [Certainly, this is what I (RevLGK) mean when I write God, GOD, or G?D.]

Larry King Live, December 25, 1999

==========================================
How many, here, would vote to censor the great scientist, Stephen Hawking? Would you say that what he has to say about God/G?D is off topic, and non-scientific? If so, then I am wasting my time, here.

BTW, I came here out of curiosity, when someone in BrainMeta referred to it. If my comments are not welcome, I am humble enough to know when I it is time to leave.

I have much yet to write in other forums and other forums to visit. For example, I have been with BrainMeta.com since it started, nearly a decade ago.
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?sho...=all&st=120

One thread, there, has over 22,000 clicks. It has hundreds of intelligent and non-censoring responses.

I also like what is happening in

http://www.pantheism.net/?gclid=COn7hfTC7YkCFSBTPgodaDcaJw
It is always a sad day when the ranters and the censors win. But if that meets the approval of the moderator, guided by the majority, so be it. We know what happens when the few are allowed to run things...

BTW, dialoguing IS a word. So says:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dialoguing smile

Last edited by Revlgking; 01/20/07 03:14 AM.

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THE GREAT INVENTOR AND GENIUS, NICLA TESLA
I forgot to mention the work of Nicola Tesla--the son of a Serbian Christian Orthodox priest.
http://www.pbs.org/tesla/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla

He was a highly spiritual person, but not being a narrow Orthodox Christian, he struggled with the rather narrow idea of God as taught by his religion.

Keep in mind that polytheism, and later, monotheism, came about when even the wisest people believed the earth was a flat disc with heaven above and hell below. We need not blame them for this, if they really believed in a flat earth, but surely when the Christian monk, Copernicus brought new knowledge to the west he should have been honored, not censored and threatened with death by the knowledge Luddites? For over a hundred years knowledge was held back by the obscurants.

OBSCURANTISM
Ignorance is one thing, but willful ignorance, obscurantism--the active opposition to progress and and the spread of knowledge, is something else. It is, IMHO, a great evil.

COSMOTHEISM
Back to Tesla, interestingly, he finally came to the conclusion that what is needed is a combination of Christianity and Buddhism. Interestingly, Buddhists are non-theists. I think of them as cosmotheists. Yes, new ideas need new words.

BTW, Christianity is already a mixture of Judaism and Christianity. I would even add the positive forms of Islam, Sikhism and Brahmanism to the mix. IMHO, in all this orthopraxy is more important than orthodoxy.

JESUS ADVOCATED ORTHOPRAXY. That is he called us to loving actions, deeds not just creeds--follow me, he said. Perhaps this is why he never wrote a book. Books tend to make us fixed-position thinkers--" IT'S IN THE BOOK!!!! (BTW, I am not opposed to felxible creeds, nor books.)

He told stories, or parables, which are stories of actions. His parable of the Good Samaritan--who, BTW, was not a Jew--in Luke 10 is about orthopraxy. I love the last sentence of his teaching: "GO then, and DO the same!"

THAT ALL MAY BE ONE
The same kind of teaching is found in John 10 and 17:20-26. His basic prayer is that "all may be one"--he called on all humanity to act as one.

The over-all philosophical term for this approach is, pragmatism--the doing of that which is morally valuable and good--which was advocated by the great Christian philosopher/psychologist, William James of Harvard.

One final thought: "The secret of true unity is the love of variety." Does anyone know who said it?


Last edited by Revlgking; 01/20/07 07:18 PM.

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