Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online
0 registered (), 78 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
Top Posters (30 Days)
Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >
Topic Options
#17975 - 02/03/07 10:37 PM KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best shot!!!
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
This is OUR opportunity to tell about our experiences with Revs and Religion--the good, the bad and whatever....
1. ask some serious questions;
2. bring to correction
3. offer some so bright ideas as to what can be done to make things better
4. invite clergy you know to get involved
5. any suggestions?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
.
#17981 - 02/04/07 04:19 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
DAM comments:

1. You've never once discuss science at a science website.

What do you want to know?

2. You've never once posted a link to anything related to science.

Link? Check out http://www.brainmeta.com Way back, I was in on helping Dr.Shawn Mikula--an MD and PhD neurologist--launch the site. He quoted one of my sermons.

3. You've quoted books with no author that you have never actually read.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

4. You claim to be a reverend and do not have a Doctorate of Divinity

A DD is an honary degree. My degrees are from http://www.mta.ca (BA in psychology/philosophy) from the Atlantic School of Theology (M.Div), http://astheology.ns.ca/ and from Boston University (STM), http://www.bu.edu/sth/ where I did two years of postgraduate studies. (1954-1955)
Not an academic type, I served forty years in the pastorate--Labrador, New Brunswick, Montreal, Quebec., and Toronto, Ontario. Currently I am re-directed--don't like the word 'retired'--in Markham, just north of Toronto, and loving it. Getting ready for, the untimately earthly graduation, death. How about you? What is your excuse for living? smile

Interestingly, Martin Luther King graduated from BU, as a minister, the year, 1954, I arrived to do post grad studies.

5. You only survive on the charity of others
Don't we all?

6. You expect others to pay taxes to subsidize you

BUNK, like much of what you write about me.


Edited by Revlgking (02/04/07 04:32 AM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#17990 - 02/04/07 09:00 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Revlgking. Just to start the ball rolling I would like to point out that many Christian preachers, eg.televangelists, lead very expensive lifestyles. One can't help but be a little cynical, especially when one remebers that the prophet of their religion was executed for opposing the major world power at the time yet within three centuries was adopted by that power to centralize control of its citizens.

Top
#17991 - 02/04/07 10:39 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Originally Posted By: terrytnewzealand
Revlgking. Just to start the ball rolling I would like to point out that many Christian preachers, eg. televangelists, lead very expensive lifestyles. One can't help but be a little cynical, especially when one remembers that the prophet of their religion was executed for opposing the major world power at the time yet within three centuries was adopted by that power to centralize control of its citizens.


Hi Terry,

America seems to have the ability to breed a particular type of half Christian/half Capitalist. It goes against Christianity's fundamental teaching:

'Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor...'

Or,

'No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.'

These people have been amply warned, and their wilful ignorance brings Christianity into disrepute. I, for one, find their TV programs very uncomfortable to watch and unlike your cynicism I actually feel quite angry.

But there you see the dilemma:

I am warned not to judge others and yet I can't help judging these people. I am therefore a hypocrite in every sense of the word. Though I want to do the right thing, one way or another I don't manage it. I should be concerned with the planks in my own eye ? and I certainly have enough.

Saint Paul said, ?For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate?For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.?

So as hard as I want to be on Televangelists, I have to admit that they are subject to the same problems as I am, and many of them may actually think they are doing right.

I?m embarrassed that my church has a collection on a Sunday morning, even though they preface it by saying that if you are not a church member then you shouldn?t give.

I also don?t think we should retain any charitable status ? except where we are clearly servicing real charitable needs. Society?s taxes should not subsidize the church.

Having gone on a bit too long ranting against the church, I will redress the balance somewhat. It?s a general principle that the church?s failures are more apparent than its good works. I know very many Christians who sacrifice all they have to serve others. A small example of this kind of attitude to life ? a friend who turned down a promotion to Director because it would take too much time and energy away from volunteer work in his community. This was a clear rejection of success in the eyes of the world and a hefty salary increase, simply because he took Jesus? words at face value and his priority was other than material goods/gods.

Blacknad.


Edited by Blacknad (02/04/07 10:41 AM)

Top
#17993 - 02/04/07 02:07 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Blacknad]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
THANKS FOR THE BALANCED COMMENTS ABOVE, Blacknad.
It is 8:45 AM, here in Toronto, -15 C degrees below freezing. That is almost 0 degrees F. It is not as bright, yet, as was yesterday. North Ontario is much, much colder. No global warming, yet. However, we did have a mild December and a very nice January, just enough cold and snow for the skiiers.
BTW, is anyone affected by what they call SAD--depression caused by winter's lack of light?

Posters, I would be interested in hearing how it is in your area.

Shortly I will be off to attend the service at
http://www.pathwayschurch.ca It is a new and, as yet small, congregation in Markham, which is a growing and affluent area just north of metro Toronto.

PATHWAYS is part of the United Church of Canada--very open-minded and very concered with helping make the community a better place for all classes, races and creeds. The UCC emphasizes DEEDS not Creeds. Agnostic and atheists welcome.

The UCC, with other churches, was one of the first churches to push for our national Health Care System. In 1965, I took part in several peaceful demonstrations urging the government to get on with it.

_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#17997 - 02/04/07 05:56 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
I think, to summarize, ...

revlgking = hyp?crite
revlgking = sp?nger
revlgking = tr?ll

I can think of n? l?wer f?rm ?f life than that ?f a self-ann?inted preacher claiming m?ral superi?rity.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#17998 - 02/04/07 06:26 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
There, DAM! Feel better now that you've vented? Much better here--Don't you think?--than cluttering up information threads with too much bumf.

BTW, I wish I knew you as well as you think you know me. Maybe if we knew you better we could have a useful dialogue.


Edited by Revlgking (02/04/07 07:31 PM)

Top
#17999 - 02/04/07 09:40 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Anytime you want a useful dialogue do us the courtesy of discussing science like everyone else here does.

Having done a bit of research I actually know quite a bit about you. But my initial impression was formed by you, and you alone, posting vague valueless fluff. I'll give no quarter to the self-anointed, the hypocritical, or the troll.

If you were to cease being so enamored of yourself you might discover that this science forum existed before you got here and will exist long after you are gone.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#18000 - 02/04/07 10:14 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Posters, I would be interested in hearing how it is in your area.


Well, not too bad here in the centre of England. Just had the warmest January for 90 years. Very mild weather at the moment.

Starting to experience some of the benefits of Global Warming smile

Blacknad.

Top
#18003 - 02/05/07 02:03 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Blacknad]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Blacknad, in 1972, the King family, including my wife, our teenage daughter and son, and Jean's mother did a six-week barter exchange with a minister in Ashford, Kent. It was a wonderful experience. We also got to visit mainland Europe and Scotland. Quite an adventure back to the land of our ancestors.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#18005 - 02/05/07 03:53 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Revlgking wrote:

"Posters, I would be interested in hearing how it is in your area."

Of course our weather has been very mild. It's actually mid-summer.

Top
#18010 - 02/05/07 06:09 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Well now we are using the NOT-QUITE forum as it was intended.

To discuss local weather and vacations.

Gag me with a spoon.

Perhaps I should now use it to post pictures of my boat. Certainly as on-topic as the rest of this.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#18023 - 02/05/07 08:30 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Offer your vitriolic brickbats here, DAM, if you wish. This is the place for them. Keep the other topics free from bile, please. It is not good for your health.


BRICKBATS AND BOUQUETS TO RELIGIONS, REVS, PHILOSOPHIES AND ARTS.
If I could change the title of this thread, this is the one I would use.
BTW, read the first post in this topic, please. It explains that is not just a place for knocking religion, it is also a place for health-giving pats on the back.

So go ahead! Practice your obvious talent--If you have other ones, I will be glad to hear what they are.

You mentioned Sailing. Being a Newfoundlander, I would love to see your boat. I was born on a island
http://www.bellisland.net in the island province, and was raised in a family of boat--and house--builders. We built our own house, and many boats. Being the youngest five brothers--there were also three sisters---did not exclude me from helping. It was fun. laugh


Edited by Revlgking (02/05/07 08:35 PM)

Top
#18031 - 02/06/07 12:00 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
revlgking wrote:
" It is not good for your health."

How I adore condescension.

revlgking wrote:
"Being a Newfoundlander, I would love to see your boat."

If you think this fluff and nonsense is what Kate meant in her post you have a very different understanding of the purpose fulfilled by a science website.

Are you pathologically incapable of posting anything that requires an IQ over room temperature?
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#18042 - 02/06/07 07:19 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Are you pathologically incapable of posting anything that requires respect, and thought, and is filled mostly with insults? Just curious!!!

Top
#18071 - 02/06/07 08:33 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
A review of my posts to everyone other than you will answer that question just as a review of your posting history demonstrates that my question was just rhetorical.

Try hypnotizing yourself into believing that it is possible to be more than a troll posting the mental equivalent of creme of wheat.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#18075 - 02/06/07 09:53 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
As a matter of fact, I did review your posts; the ones to Tim and others. Have you ever wondered: Tim, why did you drop out? You originated this topic. What happened? Did we hurt your feelings. Or did you expect we would all automatically agree with you? Is it our fault? Or Yours? We would be interested in YOUR opinion.

BTW, that was before I registered. Check out EVIDENCE FOR GOD, January 17. Here is the evidence: #17711 - 01/17/07 04:02 PM

Many of your posts, even before I arrived, were filled with demeaning ridicule designed to hurt people. You even posed as a Rev. D.A. Morgan. Remember?
=================================================
BTW: You comment:
Quote:
Try hypnotizing yourself into believing that it is possible to be more than a troll posting the mental equivalent of creme of wheat.
Translation, please, I have no idea what you are trying to say. More invidious inventions?


Edited by Revlgking (02/06/07 10:10 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#18076 - 02/06/07 09:58 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
By the way, This could turn out to be an interesting experiment in
PNEUMATOLOGY--which I like to call the science of understanding who we REALLY are, spiritually.

To put it in question form: Who ARE we human beings, REALLY?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#18085 - 02/07/07 12:30 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
revlgking wrote:
"PNEUMATOLOGY--which I like to call the science of understanding who we REALLY are, spiritually."

Or what those with degrees in science call flatulent hocus-pocus.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#18088 - 02/07/07 04:49 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
At last, there is a pneumatological improvement: You are attacking my IDEAS, not me.


Edited by Revlgking (02/07/07 04:50 AM)

Top
#18090 - 02/07/07 06:20 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
You truly don't get it. I've never once attacked you. I have attacked the fact that you behave in a manner antithetical to science.

I don't want you to leave. I want you to behave like an adult. So far you've done neither.

You walked into a science forum and spouted vague nonsense and self-serving parasitic trolls. It is as rude as if I walked into a church, went up to the microphone, and started lecturing on overloaded PL/SQL packages. You are off-topic, intentionally off-topic, and that is rude and reprehensible conduct. A conduct I presume you could change at will had you the desire and the mental horsepower. Seemingly one or both are lacking.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#18098 - 02/07/07 06:01 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
MODERATORS, NB: READ MY FIRST POST IN THIS TOPIC: It is not just about knocking Revs and Religions; it is also about the other side of the coin--the looking for the good and positive values.
==================================
I understand that your first name is Dan. Unless you prefer otherwise, I will use it, okay? You can call me LGK or Lindsay, even Linds, for short.

Dan: Your last post is such a rant and filled with so many invidious, unfair argumentum ad hominems (AAH's) that I hardly know where to begin.

WHAT DID KATE SAY?
In view of this, I will simply ask: What was Kate's response to your ranting and railing--even before I got involved--and your demand that the thread be killed? (censored)

BTW 1, had she agreed with you, in your attempt to impose censorship here, you would have effectively gotten rid of me. Meanwhile, your personal attacks are preventing a lot of thin-skinned souls--unlike me--from getting involved.

For your information. over the years I took a lot of vitriolic crap from philistine-like, unscientific people, opposed to my critical, analytical and inclusive approach the study of the Bible and to ministry. None of their crap stuck.

At 77 I am still, in there, working on integrating, philosophy (including religious faith), the sciences and the arts.

It the light of your attempt to censor all threads having to do with the discussion of religion, it is obvious that your following statement: [quote"I don't want you to leave." is pure hypocrisy.

BTW 2, Religion and the Bible can be discussed, objectively--as Kate realises--without the need for evangelizing. Needless to say, I oppose dogma and evangelizing.

BTW 3, how come your name has 'moderator' written beneath it?




Top
#18100 - 02/07/07 09:14 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Dan, you do have a rather extreme hatred of religion. Did you have an unfortunate experience earlier in your life? I do have a problem with religion to the extent that they confused the f... out of me when I was a teenager. Always working on any fears they managed to manufacture, and I object to that approach. However that seems to have been a hundred years ago and I've got over it, but I presume they still pressure teenagers during that vulnerable and confused period.

Top
#18106 - 02/08/07 06:57 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Terry: Your question is a very important one. Thanks for asking it. I was fortunate in that I had a good experience. I was taught how to think--critically and analytically; not what to think.

Do you mind giving us a few details of your experience?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#18467 - 02/27/07 11:10 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Just a reminder: Here is the place to park your personal attacks on revs and religions. I have a feeling that we are like anvils--that is anvils which have worn out many a hammer laugh
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#18473 - 02/28/07 09:05 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Lindsay asked:

"Do you mind giving us a few details of your experience?"

It was a long time ago Rev. I vaguely remember feeling somehow guilty because I couldn't bring myself to believe Jesus had died for my sins, whatever that meant. The people trying to persuade me seemed so sure it was true. Why could I not stop myself from believing we had evolved from some sort of ape? Why could I not understand how God had controlled and guided this evolution right up until that time? Why could I not accept that this evolution had suddenly come to a stop and God was going to appear in the next few days and destroy all nonbelievers? Why could I not ignore my doubts and simply join their group? Why hasn't anyone else had these problems? Why am I asking so many questions? Why can't I stop? Am I going mad? On reflection please don't answer that.

Top
#18489 - 02/28/07 08:57 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
You are madly curious!!! laugh And that's okay by me.

Top
#18490 - 02/28/07 09:30 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
From Terry
Quote:
Why could I not stop myself from believing we had evolved from some sort of ape?...
Terry, I am sure you realize that this and the other questions which follow are what is commonly called "rhetorical questions". I assume that you already have an idea of what the answeris; you just haven't found the words to articulate it, yet.

BTW, as I understand the theory of evolution, it says that we evolved along with apes, not FROM them. If we evolved from them, there would be no apes today, right?

Interestingly, Charles Darwin's basic degree from Cambridge was not in botany; it was in theology.





Edited by Revlgking (02/28/07 09:32 PM)

Top
#18496 - 03/01/07 01:07 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Rev wrote:

"If we evolved from them, there would be no apes today, right?"

Wrong. The African and Asian apes (gibbon and orangutan) separated as much as ten million years ago, perhaps more, and we would have no trouble calling this creature an ape. Gorillas separated from the ancestor that gave rise to us and chimpanzees possibly seven million years ago. We would certainly regard this common ancestor as an ape. I'm sure that if you could see the animal we and chimpanzees separated from you would have to call it an ape. In other words we are apes. To alter your statement a little, "We evoved along with (chimpanzees) from an ape species of some kind."

You also wrote:

"I assume that you already have an idea of what the answeris; you just haven't found the words to articulate it, yet."


I now realise what the problem was. Humans go through this stage in adolescence where they need to belong to a group. The need developed because it has been evolutionarily an advantage. Unfortunately religions are organised to take in teenagers at this stage of their lives whereas atheists have not yet been organised enough to do so. Perhaps there are such organisations today?

Top
#18501 - 03/01/07 02:49 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
"BTW, as I understand the theory of evolution, it says that we evolved along with apes, not FROM them."
That much is correct, although I think there is ongoing discussion - due in part, I suspect, to the rather arbitrary point where you actually draw the line. I've heard some people say that we ARE apes. Check out wikipedia at : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape

They write: "The great ape family was previously referred to as Pongidae, and humans (and fossil hominids) were omitted from it, but there is no biological case for doing this."


"If we evolved from them, there would be no apes today, right?"
That is not correct. That is an extremely common misconception about evolution.




Edited by TheFallibleFiend (03/01/07 02:54 AM)

Top
#18504 - 03/01/07 03:57 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
They write: "The great ape family was previously referred to as Pongidae, and humans (and fossil hominids) were omitted from it, but there is no biological case for doing this."

Yes. Here's more of the same.

According to Wolfgang K?hler Primate Research Center,Leipzig Zoo,

?the members of the Pongidae (great apes) are:
Chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes)
bonobo (Pan paniscus)
gorillas (Gorilla gorilla)
orang utans (Pongo pygmaeus)
humans (homo sapiens sapiens)?

Our superfamily divided from that of the old world monkeys 23 m yrs ago. Our split with the chimp and gorrilla branch of Hominoidea occurred only 6 m yrs ago.

We are apes.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#18511 - 03/01/07 11:24 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
TFF: WE ARE OFF TOPIC, OF COURSE, but I feel we are evolved enough to handle it, right? smile

I also hope I am evolved enough to handle being corrected. While I am interested is all science theories, including evolution, I readily admit there are many things about which I am ignorant and I gladly defer to the experts.

BLESSED ARE THE TEACHABLE
In addition, I HOPE I am also teachable--the basic meaning of the word "meek", as found in The Beattitude (positive and happy attitude), "Blessed are the meek (the humble, lovingly teachable) for they shall inherit the earth (meaning the physical universe, not just our planet earth)."

As you noted, I wrote: "If we evolved from them, there would be no apes today, right?"

TFF, you responded: "That is not correct. That is an extremely common misconception about evolution."

Please tell me: What is proper conception of evolution?

Your correction adds to my understanding of evolution, which I have no problem accepting. It fits in with my concept of what G?D is all about. Unlike the "perfect" God I was told about as a child, G?D, in my meek and humble opinion, is the supreme example of meekness and, therefore, G?D (the total cosmos) is capable of evolving, ad infinitum.

Does your correction mean that you believe--or perhaps you know?--that a perhaps a certain group of apes became meeker, more teachable than others? Is this what gave them the ability to dominate?

If so, we need to ask: In what way? And, to what extent? Currently, are there groups of human beings meeker than others? What is the nature and function of meekness.

Interestingly, humility, meekness, the ability to be teachable are the opposite of being arrogantly proud. Also interesting: Pride is always on the top of any listing of the deadly human sins.

I AM REMINDED OF THE NINTH VERSE OF GRAY'S ELEGY

The boast of heraldry, the pomp of power,
And all that beauty, all that wealth e'er gave,
Awaits alike th' inevitable hour:-
The paths of glory lead but to the grave.



Top
#18512 - 03/01/07 11:54 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
FOR THOSE WHO ACCEPT THE CREATION MYTH AS A FACT
Consider the following quote from one of my friends, Rick, a brilliant scientist, in the brainmeta forum:
Quote:
Regarding the flood myth, if the entire world were flooded, salt water would submerge all the fresh water rivers and lakes, killing all the fresh water fish. Are we to suppose that Noah had installed aquaria on the ark for all fresh water fish pairs?

What about snails and crawfish? What about species that live only in North America? Did he have his sons discover the new world so they could rescue the fresh water fish there?

The true believers have a mind-boggling double-think task ahead of them.


_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#18517 - 03/01/07 05:52 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
The case of apes and humans is just one example of a broader misunderstanding; namely that, "If Bs came from As, why are there still As?"

As many people before me have commented, this is analogous to arguing, "If I'm Irish American, how come there are still Irish around?"

There just isn't anything in evolution that says that these predecessors have to vanish. This is a completely contrived notion - a lie - perpetrated by creationists and based on a complete misunderstanding of how evolution works. I cannot explain it to you in sound bites.

Darwin himself was aware of this when he wrote OOS:
"It need not be supposed that all varieties or incipient species
necessarily attain the rank of species. They may whilst in this
incipient state become extinct, or they may endure as varieties for very long periods, as has been shown to be the case by Mr. Wollaston with the varieties of certain fossil land-shells in Madeira. If a variety were to flourish so as to exceed in numbers the parent species, it would then rank as the species, and the species as the variety; or it might come to supplant and exterminate the parent species; or both might co-exist, and both rank as independent species."

Note the phrase "or both might co-exist."


Top
#18520 - 03/01/07 07:57 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: terrytnewzealand
I now realise what the problem was. Humans go through this stage in adolescence where they need to belong to a group. The need developed because it has been evolutionarily an advantage. Unfortunately religions are organised to take in teenagers at this stage of their lives whereas atheists have not yet been organised enough to do so. Perhaps there are such organisations today?

When I was 15-16, I had an absolutely adorable English teacher who was a member of the British Humanist Association. She only mentioned it in passing once, but always wore the little badge on her lapel. I think she could easily have recruited a few hundred adolescents had she been inclined. Like other humanists, though, she evidently wasn't so inclined.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#18524 - 03/01/07 09:43 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Redewenur. As a friend of mine used to say, "This anarchy could work. We just need to get organised".

Top
#18534 - 03/02/07 04:38 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Wolfman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Pago Pago, American Samoa
My KNOCK against religion is that it has kept us from realizing our intellectual potential. For, what, 500 years, we were in "The Dark Ages". A great time for the Church. A horrible time for Ordinary People. If not for the Dark Ages, we would today be reaping the benefits of 500 additional years of Scientific Research. Who knows where we would be had we not lost those 500 years?

Top
#18537 - 03/02/07 05:02 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Wolfman]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Wolfman, I have no problem with your comment. Have you read about the Protestant Reformation? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation
http://history.hanover.edu/early/prot.html
PRO--meaning for
testant--one who witnesses.
The 16th Century Protestants were Catholics who were for a new kind of faith--one which freed people to think for themselves. The Catholic monk, Copernicus, was helped by Protestaant Catholics to get his book, on the new astronomy, published.
Most modern liberal-thinking Roman Catholics appreciate that the Reformation took place.

_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#18542 - 03/02/07 12:32 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Wolfman]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Wolfman
My KNOCK against religion is that it has kept us from realizing our intellectual potential. For, what, 500 years, we were in "The Dark Ages". A great time for the Church. A horrible time for Ordinary People. If not for the Dark Ages, we would today be reaping the benefits of 500 additional years of Scientific Research.

And now, 5 centuries into the future, the nation epitomizing modern civilisation is plagued by an anti-science movement that once again has its roots in religion.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#18556 - 03/02/07 08:50 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
It is worse than that redewenur.

As though the other military campaigns in Alexandria Egypt were not sufficient ... as Christians gained dominance in the region, they felt uncomfortable with pagan temples full of pagan documents. In 391 AD, Theophilus, the patriarch of Alexandria, urged a mob to destroy the temple at Serapis at the same time destroying whatever books were left in the greatest library on the planet. This was hailed as a great victory of the Christians over the pagans.

And it was if you are one who believes, as Christianity has over the centuries, that burning what you don't agree with is a good thing.

They've burned books, burned pagans, burned scientists, burned cities. 2000 years of burning intolerance. Ain't forgiveness a lovely thing.

In almost every major philosophical conflict I see in America it is the Christians versus the nation.

They support the war in Iraq against the heathens.
They want a war in Iran to kill a few more.
They want to control women's reproductive choices.
They want to control medical care and how it is delivered.
They want to control what I do in the bedroom.
They want to control when, where, and how I can die.

And why not ... they are smarter, wiser, righter and gooder than everybody else.

(and yes the grammar is intentional)
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#18557 - 03/02/07 10:18 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
THE CHOICE IS: WE CAN WALLOW IN OUR PROBLEMS, OR WE CAN SEEK SOLUTIONS. THE CHOICE IS OURS.

Okay, it is obvious that we have problems, here, all calling for solutions, but the question is: What can we do, and what are we planning to DO about them?

BTW, I agree, all of the above generalizations need to be aired, acknowledged and brought out into the light of day. We need to know and discuss who we feel did what, to whom and why they did it.

The name, shame and blame game leads to more and more suffering, pain and death. This is not the game which I wish to play.

Let us take it from there. Okay?


_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#18558 - 03/02/07 10:51 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Keep in mind: I take a rational and scientific approach to all matters, including matters of philosophy and FAITH.

I abhor all dogmatic doctrines, including religious and scientific ones. Keep in mind: Interestingly, I have found that some atheists and agnostics can, often, be just as dogmatic and just closed-minded as fanatic believers.

Sad!!!! isn't it?

BTW, Carl Sagan's famous quote, about the cosmos, comes to mind: "The cosmos is all that is, or ever was, or ever will be."

If this is true, IMHO, G?D and the cosmos are one and the same.



Edited by Revlgking (03/03/07 03:45 AM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#18565 - 03/03/07 04:05 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
they are smarter, wiser, righter and gooder than everybody else

Do 'they' think that precisely because they are 'Christians' (Capital letter intended)?
I think 'they' do.

Top
#18566 - 03/03/07 04:08 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
By the way Rev, I'm not an atheist any more (because you insist it is a belief and I refuse to accept that it is)--- Now I am a secular humanist. No idea what it means--but don't it sound good!!

Top
#18576 - 03/03/07 05:40 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Ellis, moral and ethical Secular humanists who treat their fellow human with kindness and respect are okay in my books. When someone asks me: Are you a Christian? I say, ask my neighbour, including all I encounter.

IMHO, the secular universe is within G?D in the same way that fish are within the water, birds are within the air and galaxies are within space.
If there is anything beyond space, that is G?D.

As I have said elsewhere: IMHO, physically speaking G?D is like gravity; mentally speaking G?D is like knowledge, information, and spiritually speaking G?D is Spirit, Love, the power in each of us to will that all things work together for good.

I can't imagine why anyone, with any kind of desire for making the best of life, would be against this. It is like being against breathing, healthy drinking, and eating, living.

BTW, I am with secular humanists who resent having dogmas, creeds, rituals and institutional rules shoved in their faces by organized religions--many members of which are diabolic agents of evil. Fortunately, there are also some church members who are just as good as good secular humanists. smile This is what keeps me involved.

I think of a good church as being like a good hospital; it is a place where the sick can get the help they need and become productive members of society.

I don't expect every church member to be a saint. But I like them to be making a sincere attempt. I believe in deeds, not just creeds. Creeds, are like good prescriptions; they only have value if they help us be healthy and do the good we need to do.

I LIKE WHAT IS HAPPENING AT THE FOLLOWING SITE:
http://www.goldenruleradical.org/





Edited by Revlgking (03/03/07 06:05 AM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#18579 - 03/03/07 06:13 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
BTW, Ellis, and others, do you belong to any kind of fellowship, or group, which is involved in making the world a better place, for all of us?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#18584 - 03/03/07 06:09 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Speaking f?r myself I bel?ng t? a gr?up that believes ?ne step t?ward curing many ?f humanity's pr?blems is shining a bright light ?n self-ann?inted, self-app?inted, emper?rs wearing n? cl?thes.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#18592 - 03/04/07 05:45 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
I can't wait to see the light! smile smile

I am reminded of the poetry of Genesis 1:3 : And God commanded, "Let there be light"--and light appeared. God was pleased with what he saw. Then he separated the light from the darkness.

As one who prefers the kind of light that is eternal, which rational faith in the Eternal provides, I like this last comment.


Edited by Revlgking (03/04/07 06:00 AM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#18615 - 03/04/07 11:40 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Better for whom, Rev? The Iraq war is being waged with one aim stated as making things better for the Iraqi people. And a very old saying has some truth in it--The way to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Top
#18623 - 03/05/07 03:58 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Of course, I agree: intentions are only of real value if they are good and followed up with good actions.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#18776 - 03/09/07 03:11 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
MrBiGG78 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 30
Loc: Gatineau, QC
Understanding who we are spiritually??

As far as I know, there is no such thing as a spirit
We are merely the sum of all our physical constituents
Cousciousness is nothing more then the result of an elaborate biological computing process

Let me know when you have irrefutable proof that this isn't the case...


Edited by MrBiGG78 (03/09/07 03:26 PM)
_________________________
What was, still is, and always will be such is the truth of the eternal now.

Top
#18865 - 03/12/07 08:30 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: MrBiGG78]
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Originally Posted By: MrBiGG78
Understanding who we are spiritually??

As far as I know, there is no such thing as a spirit
We are merely the sum of all our physical constituents
Cousciousness is nothing more then the result of an elaborate biological computing process

Let me know when you have irrefutable proof that this isn't the case...


Let me know when you have irrefutable proof that it is the case.

And also let me know what you would consider irrefutable proof that we have a spirit.

Blacknad.

Top
#18873 - 03/12/07 11:44 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Blacknad]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad wrote:
"Let me know when you have irrefutable proof that it is the case."

Actually there is irrefutable proof if you are open to it. Lets review the evidence.

1. If I remove your source of oxygen you will lose consciousness and die in about 3 minutes.

2. If I remove your source of water you will lose consciousness and die in about 3 days.

3. If I remove your source of energy (food) you will lose consciousness and die in about 3 weeks.

All of these are explainable, and perfectly consistent, with known laws of chemistry and physics.

Assuming a spirit exists there is no known information, biblical or otherwise, that explains why depriving a spirit of oxygen, or water, or food, will cause it to depart in accordance with known laws of chemistry and physics.

Why should a spirit be affected by a fungal, bacterial, or viral infection? Why should a spirit respond, in a predictable manner, to chemical alteration of a protein or a nucleic acid? Again there is nothing in any holy book that supports what is easily explained by the known laws of chemistry and physics.

Want to dive deeper? I've got my scuba tank on. <g>
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#18890 - 03/13/07 04:20 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
OK, DA, get your snorkel <g>.

As I mentioned elsewhere, while we know that activity in particular areas of the brain is associated with particular experiences of the mind, science has not yet answered the question: "What is consciousness?".

No one disputes that deprivation of oxygen/water/food causes malfunction, decay and death of the brain. We conclude that, when we can no longer detect evidence of consciousness, no consciousness exists.

I have an open mind on this. To me it seems that there are two possibilities:

(1) Consciousness emerges solely and entirely from the activity of the brain.

- i.e., where, and only where, there is brain there can be consciousness

(2) Consciousness, is not solely and entirely dependent upon activities of the brain, and may exist independently of it.

- i.e. where there is brain there can be consciousness, but where there is consciousness, there is not necessarily brain (find proof in the U.S administration <g>)

I suspect that a radical breakthrough in physics will one day lead to an understanding of the real nature of consciousness.

Am I off-topic again? Sorry about that.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#18913 - 03/13/07 09:10 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
This is SAGG. It is seemingly impossible to be off-topic. <g>

We can prove, magnetic imaging, etc. that consciousness emerges solely and entirely form the activity of the brain ... and even which specific areas and neurons are involved. That doesn't mean that we, as yet, understand it.

We understand how the heart works well enough to build them in the shop. But an individual heart cell will never understand how a heart functions. For us to understand what consciousness is may be one of the most formidable challenges there is.

Consider, if you will, the issue of free will. Is it possible to prove that it exists? My knee-jerk reaction is no.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#18934 - 03/14/07 05:25 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Well you certainly couldn't have free-will without consciousness could you? And you can only have free-will if you acknowedge that there is a 'right' and 'wrong' answer for every action. And I personally don't think that is so. I think free-will is a concept of Christian (and maybe other) faith to get God out of a tight spot when things go wrong. The answer is that if one were to follow God's path for us things would be good, but we didn't- so it isn't. It doesn't quite cover babies dying of awful diseases- but can be used to get God off the hook for such things as war. Then it's explained as an outbreak of the ungodly following their own path. OK it's bit simplistic, but that's my take on free-will.

Top
#18936 - 03/14/07 06:02 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Building on what you said Ellis here is what I think is an objective statement of fact.

If free will does not exist then you course of action is predetermined and you, as an individual, bear no responsibility for ever making a bad decision. Truth is you never actually made a decision.

Why study for the math test, why be a good parent, why not just do whatever ... if it happens it was preordained. Islam has traditionally had a real problem with this one.

Now move 180 degrees in the other direction. You are personally responsible for everything you do. You make every decision and bear every consequence. This is the point-of-view of the atheist.

The Christian is trapped somewhere in-between. He cannot be responsible for everything because god, Jesus Christ, angles, the devil, and numerous Saints all can intercede whenever they choose and change things. And, to use blacknad's writing as a crutch here, perhaps capriciously responding to a prayer or not based on rules we do not or can not understand.

So if the asteroid hits ... I say ... it hit due to the laws of physics in our universe and we are morons for not getting our act together and detecting and deflecting it and are responsible for the consequences of our lack of action.

The person who believes there is no free will says ... it was destined to happen and there was nothing we could have done about it ... or we would have.

I presume the true believer says ... well I prayed, I tried, I really did. Better luck next time. But at least those killed all went to heaven so they are in a far far better place.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#18940 - 03/14/07 06:49 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Ellis
I think free-will is a concept of Christian (and maybe other) faith to get God out of a tight spot when things go wrong.

I'd say that it's the naturally intuitive view. As a very young kid, I had no ideas about religion, philosophy and causality. To me, if I tidied up my room it was because I chose to do so (or, more likely, my mum chose that I should do so!).

I get around the issue in a pragmatic way: it's expedient to make use of our apparent free will; it gives us a clear edge over anyone who would throw up their hands and not bother looking before they cross the road! At the same time, I have in the past taken the view that even my decision to adopt that approach is predetermined. Now that we know something about quantum events and the Uncertainty Principle, I'm not so...certain.

?To sum up, what I have been talking about, is whether the universe evolves in an arbitrary way, or whether it is deterministic. The classical view, put forward by Laplace, was that the future motion of particles was completely determined, if one knew their positions and speeds at one time. This view had to be modified, when Heisenberg put forward his Uncertainty Principle, which said that one could not know both the position, and the speed, accurately. However, it was still possible to predict one combination of position and speed. But even this limited predictability disappeared, when the effects of black holes were taken into account. The loss of particles and information down black holes meant that the particles that came out were random. One could calculate probabilities, but one could not make any definite predictions. Thus, the future of the universe is not completely determined by the laws of science, and its present state, as Laplace thought.?

S.W. Hawking
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#18941 - 03/14/07 04:40 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
DA wrote: "We can prove, magnetic imaging, etc. that consciousness emerges solely and entirely form the activity of the brain ... and even which specific areas and neurons are involved."

I'll edit that to fit the alternative view:

We can prove, magnetic imaging, etc. that (evidence of) consciousness emerges solely and entirely from the activity of the brain ... and even which specific areas and neurons are (associated) with that evidence."

DA wrote: "Consider, if you will, the issue of free will. Is it possible to prove that it exists? My knee-jerk reaction is no."

The prevailing theories of physics in any given era may or may not offer support for free will, but my hunch is that you're guess is right - that it's not provable. Even so, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if our descendents discovered otherwise, especially if they do manage to fathom consciousness.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#18951 - 03/14/07 09:40 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
I heard an interview on radio with someone on the subject. Unfortunately I missed his name. His idea was that the decisions we make at any moment are almost totally determined by our genes and our upbringing. He hinted that ultimately therefore we don't really have free will. Of course our ideas change (or should do) as we age but even these changes may be a product of our genes and upbringing and so on.

Top
#18958 - 03/15/07 09:35 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: terrytnewzealand
His idea was that the decisions we make at any moment are almost totally determined by our genes and our upbringing.

I'd hesitate to argue with someone who's probably a geneticist, but I would say 'influenced by' rather than 'determined by'. Education, day to day experiences, and environment must also be taken into account.

Be that as it may, I think that looking at the fundamentals of the question is less speculative, i.e. is free will possible or impossible, according to the known laws of physics? Stephen Hawking appears to suggest that it is. I'm sure, however, that I've read something somewhere to the effect that the basis of his contention has been superseded.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#18961 - 03/15/07 06:03 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
I'm width redewenur on this one. I think our genetic heritage predisposes us to specific starting blueprints.

But there seems little or on question that environment, parental, cultural, etc. builds upon that blueprint.

If we were just a product of a genetic inheritance we'd be sorely equipped to deal with reality in an uncertain world. Today's saber toothed kitty-cats come with smiles and a attache case.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#18970 - 03/16/07 01:30 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Rede and DA. Note I said, "and our upbringing."

Within that I include "environment, parental, cultural, etc." and "Education, day to day experiences, and environment". Of course we are a product of these and our genetic makeup. But, to some extent, how they affect us is in turn determined by our genetic makeup. I'm not saying I agree with the guy who spoke on the radio (well, maybe I do) but he argued that the combination pretty much determines how we react to situations. Interesting topic for discussion.


Edited by terrytnewzealand (03/16/07 01:32 AM)

Top
#18984 - 03/16/07 10:02 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
OK, Terry, then we we're saying the same thing. What the idea amounts to then, is that even if the laws of physics allow free will, our thoughts and actions are to some extent 'programmed'. To what extent is another matter. It seems that the guy on the radio thought it close to 100%. Maybe he's right. I have a feeling that chaos theory would have something to say about it, but I'm shooting in the dark.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#18987 - 03/16/07 11:41 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
I'm not sure about chaos theory ... would need some time to think about it ... but I think we can definitely state, without fear of contradiction, that you can never swim in the same river twice.

Such is the nature of reality.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#18988 - 03/16/07 03:57 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Yes, allegedly from Heraclitus, ?You can never step into the same river twice?, and a variant by one of his disciples: ?You cannot step into the same river even once" - but we may be getting into deep water <g>

While we're with philosphers:-

I wouldn't want to get into Erwin Schr?dinger's view of consciousness here, but some might be interested to google for info about it. Here's a snippet:

"...inconceiveable as it seems to ordinary reason, you ? and all other conscious beings as such ? are all in all. Hence, this life of yours... is, in a certain sense, the whole..."

Very interesting. Even if one disagrees, it's worth considering how a powerful mind, trained and proficient in modern age science, could arrive at such a viewpoint.

As I've implied elsewhere, I think he was on the right track. I await the science that either proves or disproves it.
_____

Re: Free wilI, I wrote: "I have a feeling that chaos theory would have something to say about it"

OK, try this:

http://mh.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/28/2/78

(Scroll down to 'CHAOS THEORY AND FREE WILL')

'...Complexity theory does not therefore solve the problem of free will in a deterministic universe, unless what we are worried about is not that our decisions are caused, but that they are predictable.

The attempt to solve the free will problem through complexity theory has some parallels with earlier attempts to solve the problem through the indeterminacy of quantum mechanics and the randomness of some quantum events. If there is true randomness in quantum events, and if quantum events are effective parts of the causal chains leading to decisions, then these decisions are not causally determined and unpredictable. This does, however, not give us the kind of free will that we want. Instead of having our decisions determined by inflexible causal chains, we now have them determined by random quantum events. There is still no room for the uncaused, but clearly not random agency that we seem to experience when we make decisions with our free will.

In the same way free will is not saved by being the result of complex causal chains, instead of simple ones. There would still be nothing free about it.'
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#18989 - 03/16/07 05:04 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Thanks for the link.

The problem with free will is that it get remarkably close to theology and philosophy ... subjects related to faith not science.

It appears an unsolvable paradox in that if you ignore my post and don't read it ... was that a question of will or was it preordained? What if you read it and don't respond? Was it by choice? What if you respond ... what words will you use to respond?

It is very close to contemplating what would happen if you took a time machine back to before you were born and murdered your parents.

Seemingly so much valueless nonsense.

But yet, I will grant, enjoyable in a philosophical context.

I knew I was going to say that. ;-)
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#18991 - 03/16/07 05:25 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
I don't see a paradox, DA. It's either free will or it's not. Either the 'choice' is real or it's illusory. Even if it is illusory, we still experience it as real. The point with chaos theory is that it deals only with the measure of unpredictability in mental/physiological processes, and has no bearing whatsoever on the free will debate.

Free will is, of course, more than simply a matter of interest to the religious. At the same time, the physics of our universe either allows it or it doesn't. To date, we don't know which. Maybe we'll never know - but for me, it's very much a matter for science.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#18992 - 03/16/07 05:57 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
redewenur wrote:
"Either the 'choice' is real or it's illusory."

But how can you tell because as you say:

"Even if it is illusory, we still experience it as real."

One of the biggest criticisms of Chaos Theory has been whether it is science. In other words can it meet the test of predictability and repeatability. I think it can but there are a lot of very intelligent people who are not as convinced.

If Chaos Theory is still, somewhat, controversial then free-will must be even more so. Because, at least with our current level of sophistication, we have no means of measuring anything objective about it.

I knew I was going to say that too. ;-)
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#18997 - 03/16/07 08:46 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
DA wrote:

But how can you tell because as you say: "Even if it is illusory, we still experience it as real."


- subjective experience is not the required proof; what is required is objective proof, just as you would require objective proof for the existence of God. That's as far as the similarity goes, though. Whereas 'God' is a metaphysical concept/being (depending on your view), free will is a different kind of case. As I see it, it's purely a question of physics, and case for or against can, in principal, be argued on the basis observations of the physical universe. Presently, of course, the case cannot be proven either way, but I think it's only a mattter of time - a long time maybe, but as I said, in principal, not impossible.
_____

The point about chaotic systems is that, although they are unpredictable, they are still causal. So Chaos Theory has nothing new to say about free will. It turns out to be irrelevant. So, the controversy over Chaos Theory is equally irrelevant.

I knew you was going to say that too ;-)
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19011 - 03/17/07 01:52 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
The one huge advantage "free will" has over god is that the concept transcends a single theological point of view.

When Christians, Jews, Moslems, Hindu, and Animist discuss it ... they at least agree on what it is. Not whether it exists, mind you, but on what it is.

That is more than we can say for their mindless discussions of dog.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19016 - 03/17/07 05:09 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
DA wrote:
"When Christians, Jews, Moslems, Hindu, and Animist discuss it ... they at least agree on what it is. Not whether it exists, mind you, but on what it is."

Yes, that's the religious thorn in the side of science, isn't it. It's not character of the individual Christian (for example). That's very often impeccable. It's the subversion of their reason to dogma of the institution, and the dependence on an inflexible model of the universe as part of that dogma - the rest is history.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19017 - 03/17/07 05:26 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Whilst I agree that freewill and predestination are absolutely opposites, I feel that both concepts are human constructs or perhaps rules, to explain the behaviour of their gods. Christians are able to explain the "bad" things by saying we have freewill so it's our fault not God's. A religion that preaches predestination says virtually the the opposite with the same fervour. The bad things happen because in a previous life, or in this one, you did something so dreadful that now you are to be punished. This is a particularly nasty point of view because, where christianity has great trouble explaining things like childhood cancer or horrible fates suffered by babies too young to punished for any sin, the answer can be that the dreadful diseaseas is because of earlier behaviour, either in an earlier life (as in reincarnation) or in this one- pure revenge by fierce god.

I find both views quite abhorrent, as do many other people, so the christian faith at least, has been keen recently to emphasise the God of Love, and to back off on the consequence of stressing the existence of freewill. Doctrinal teaching explains that we must pray to God as he knows what is best for us and we should do his will, not our own. This is still a prayer today, though the consequences of backsliding are not as literally damning as before (after all no one any longer believes in Hell do they?)

Top
#19021 - 03/17/07 08:53 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Hi, Ellis. A few remarks on that:

"Whilst I agree that freewill and predestination are absolutely opposites, I feel that both concepts are human constructs or perhaps rules"

- If both were nothing but human inventions, what alternative would remain for reality? Can it be anything but a case of one or the other?

"Christians are able to explain the "bad" things by saying we have freewill so it's our fault not God's"

- If by 'bad things' you mean any volitional action that can be considered morally/ethically negative, then it's a view shared by atheists.

"A religion that preaches predestination says virtually the the opposite with the same fervour. The bad things happen because in a previous life, or in this one, you did something so dreadful that now you are to be punished"

- I take it that you're referring to the eastern religions that support the notion of 'karma'. This is a special case of 'cause and effect' which is exclusively related to morality, and I agree, it can propagate the most horrendous ideas in the minds of its adherents. As an example, I once overheard the remark of a nurse working on a psycho-geriatric ward, in which many of the poor patients were enduring a living nightmare. She said that they deserved it, as they wouldn't be suffering if they hadn't been wicked in a previous life. The belief in karma also encourages an apathetic disposition; in this case, one doesn't hear, "It's God's will", but instead, "It's karma".

The scientific debate concerning determinism does not deal with such metaphysics as karma (moral cause and effect). It concerns only the mechanics of the physical universe.


_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19034 - 03/17/07 06:17 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
redewenur wrote:
"- If both were nothing but human inventions, what alternative would remain for reality? Can it be anything but a case of one or the other?"

I'm with Ellis on this and I think he is correct. I think there very clearly is an alternative and that alternative is to stay away from absolutes.

We have the ability to make, within the context of what we know, decisions. I can choose to type UPPER CASE or not. There is no more evidence that would support the belief that my doing so was predetermined or the work of an invisible purple rhinoceros than there is proof that an invisible purple rhinoceros exists. Call that free will if you wish.

But it is not absolutist free will. I can not live to be 250 years old. No matter how much I may wish it.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19056 - 03/17/07 11:33 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
DA wrote:

"I think there very clearly is an alternative and that alternative is to stay away from absolutes"

When there are only two logical possibilities, I don't accept 'stay away from absolutes' as a third, simply because at this moment in history the answer is unavailable. You may do so, that's your prerogative.

"There is no more evidence that would support the belief that my doing so was predetermined or the work of an invisible purple rhinoceros than there is proof that an invisible purple rhinoceros exists"

- Correct, there is no conclusive evidence either way for determinism/indeterminism; but in this case, your invisible purple rhinoceros is irrelevant - determinism does not require a creator (or an ipr)

"But it is not absolutist free will. I can not live to be 250 years old. No matter how much I may wish it"

- Indeed. No one suggested otherwise.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19057 - 03/18/07 12:28 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Does "karma" not have a whiff of divinity about it, or at least the supernatural. After all the "punishment" comes as a result of the behaviour, so it must have a causative agent surely. Whether this is a god or an irresistible force of Nature would be open to debate.

I also think I muddled up predestination and reincarnation a bit. Reincarnation has to ackowledge predestination, but predestination would be "God's plan for us"-- a concept alive and well to many christians.

I do not believe in freewill or predestination as a concept because to me they appear to be part of the relgious construct that permeates every level of our lives without our recognising it is so. I think that it is possible to have reality without needing either--because to have either it is necessary to acknowledge the 'administrator' of such planning (ie what are we rebelling against?) I don't believe that such an entity exists. No god, no karma and no pesky rhinocerous!! Just Earth and its inhabitants making the best of it as they can, as part of the larger cosmos. I think such concepts as freewill or predestination help some of us to deal with reality- as we negotiate chaos.


Top
#19066 - 03/18/07 06:31 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Redewenur:
I wasn't trying trying to dodge the issue. Let me state my
position more clearly.

1. Predetermination ... the outcome is predetermined by
a deity or a deterministic universe (we aren't in one).

2. Free will ... we have full and complete freedom to do
as we wish (of course so does the saber toothed cat
around the bend).

3. The alternative ... we have the ability to make limited
decisions within a predetermined framework. I can UPPER
cAsE aLL i WANT!

Limited decisions is not what most mean when invoking the
concept of free will.

===========================================================

Ellis:
Karma is just a way for those that should, metaphorically
speaking, pick up an AK47. It is used by people who perceive
injustice and prefer to not confront it but rather comfort
themselves in the assumed evening of the scales at some point
in the future.

I prefer the likes of George Washington, Patrick Henry, and
Lech Walesa. As Edmund Burke said:

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

And appeals to karma are "doing nothing."
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19070 - 03/18/07 09:56 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Ellis.
"I think that it is possible to have reality without needing either--because to have either it is necessary to acknowledge the 'administrator' of such planning"

- I reject the idea that, in either case, it's necessary to have an 'administrator', or a 'planner', for the same reason that I reject the idea that the existence of the universe implies a creator.

"Does "karma" not have a whiff of divinity about it, or at least the supernatural"

It originated, as far as I know (which, isn't a lot) in the philosophy expounded in the Vedas of ancient India, possibly as long as 4500yrs ago. It has no apparent connection with divinities, but it's distinctly supernatural.

Just for the record, I agree that karma is ipr material.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19072 - 03/18/07 10:11 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
DA.

"1. Predetermination ... the outcome is predetermined by
a deity or a deterministic universe (we aren't in one)."

Disagree. Predetermination has no necessary connection with the existence of a deity. (And we may be in one).

"2. Free will ... we have full and complete freedom to do
as we wish (of course so does the saber toothed cat
around the bend)."

Disagree. We would still be bound by the laws of physics (so there would be no sabre toothed cat around the bend).

"3. The alternative ... we have the ability to make limited
decisions within a predetermined framework. I can UPPER
cAsE aLL i WANT!"

By 'predetermined framework', I take it that you mean a framework consisting of factors including genes and environment influences and so on, as discussed previously.

True, if the universe is indeterminate.
False, if the universe is determinate.

Re: karma - I agree <g>
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19079 - 03/18/07 05:18 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
redewenur ...

1. I wrote "or a deterministic universe." And clearly we are not in one.

2. Being bound by the laws of physics of course. Flapping your arms while falling off a cliff will not make you a bird. But assuming that you have free-will to make all decisions is also unrealistic.
Do you believe that when a pebble flies toward your face you have free will to NOT blink? Do you believe that when you have a kidney stone you have free will to ignore the pain?

I think free will has limits. Possibly severe ones.

The universe is provably indeterminate. Drop eggs off the counter onto the floor in exactly the same way over and over until you come to believe it too.

The concept of free will is a life-form construct. I think we can safely assume the moon does not conceive of itself as having free will. So lets start with the ameoba and work our way up. Does an amoeba consciously make decisions as to the path it chooses when searching for food? Or is it a captive reacting to chemical queues and programming that says "first left then right?" I've no doubt the worm, if it can, thinks it is making decisions. I'm not sure too many two-legged sentients would agree. And in the same way I am not so convinced that my fellow inhabitants of this planet are for the most part conscious. Though I've no doubt they think they are.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19081 - 03/18/07 06:00 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
For me, the question is, what is unique about mind that it can break free from determinism?

Up until the first sentient creature made a decision, the universe had run along determined lines of 'first-cause'-reaction-reaction etc.

What allowed thought to impose itself onto the natural order of the universe?

And neither free will nor determination are necessarily connected to deity.

Blacknad.

Top
#19082 - 03/18/07 06:06 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Credit where it's due, DA, you're not short of colourful analogies. <g>

You wrote:

"1. I wrote "or a deterministic universe." And clearly we are not in one."

- because, you say:

"The universe is provably indeterminate. Drop eggs off the counter onto the floor in exactly the same way over and over until you come to believe it too.

- I find this an incongruous argument. If determinacy is a fact, then it is so through cause and effect at the level of the most fundamental particle/energy level. That doesn't imply predictability - it largely precludes it. So, if you were to suggest that quantum uncertainty is proof of indeterminacy, then your argument could be more persuasive.

You wrote:

"But assuming that you have free-will to make all decisions is also unrealistic. Do you believe that when a pebble flies toward your face you have free will to NOT blink? Do you believe that when you have a kidney stone you have free will to ignore the pain?"

From the previous post:

"3. The alternative ... we have the ability to make limited
decisions within a predetermined framework. I can UPPER
cAsE aLL i WANT!"

By 'predetermined framework', I take it that you mean a framework consisting of factors including genes and environment influences and so on, as discussed previously.

True, if the universe is indeterminate.


OK DA, what we have then (it would probably have taken less than a minute over beer!) is that:

(1) a determinate universe is impossible - for you because of your eggs <g> and for me because of quantum uncertainty
(2) we therefore have an indeterminate universe in which our free will is limited by factors such as genes, instincts, reflexes, environment etc.

Tell me you agree, for once, then at least we can change the subject <g>
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19083 - 03/18/07 06:07 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Blacknad]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
blacknad wrote:
"For me, the question is, what is unique about mind that it can break free from determinism?"

Philosophically it is an important question. But I am not sure there is a lot of evidence supporting that it is possible or that the universe is deterministic: In fact just the opposite.

There is an asteroid that "might" hit earth in 2039. Consider all of the reasons that we just don't know for sure.

blacknad wrote:
"Up until the first sentient creature made a decision, the universe had run along determined lines of 'first-cause'-reaction-reaction etc."

I can't think of a single physicist that would agree with this. There is every reason to believe that quantum fluctuations led to all that we observe.

Though imposes itself on the natural order of the universe in the sense that some guy "decides" to go out searching for diamonds in Siberia and the result is a big hole in the ground. But sooner or later that Kimberlite would have been discovered and the hole would have been dug. Is that any different than what a mouse does when it runs around in the yard searching for a place to dig a hole for itself? I don't think so except that the mouse isn't fool enough to voluntarily move to Siberia.

You are correct that the concepts of free will and determination do not necessarily connect to a deity. On the other hand the historical and philosophical connection is rather strong.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19084 - 03/18/07 06:10 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Originally Posted By: DA Morgan
The universe is provably indeterminate. Drop eggs off the counter onto the floor in exactly the same way over and over until you come to believe it too.


Dan,

From your last post, I can see why you have little time or regard for philosophy. It's obviously not your strongest discipline.

Was your sentence above really meant to be serious?

Blacknad.

Top
#19085 - 03/18/07 06:18 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Blacknad]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
No ... but it does have a point to it. One can throw a deck of cards into the air an infinite number of times using the exact same mechanism and force and get an infinite number of results. The bottom-line is that quantum mechanics, the single most successful and exacting theory known to us, is the best proof we have and it clearly proves an indeterminate universe.

Reference Dr. Murray Gell Mann and his book "The Quark and the Jaguar" for more insight.

I actually spent several years studying philosophy. Kant, Spinoza, and the rest of that lot. I enjoy, in social situations, discussing philosophy. But from a practical, scientific, point of view it is just so much wasted oxidation of glucose producing carbon dioxide.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19086 - 03/18/07 06:24 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Then, DA, you know that -

"There is an asteroid that "might" hit earth in 2039. Consider all of the reasons that we just don't know for sure."

- you're talking about predictability again - and that's a very different thing from determinacy. The fact that an event cannot be predicted - for example, next week's weather - is a non-issue. Chaotic systems, even though unpredictable, are still subject to cause and effect.

Having said that, it's academic if we agree that this is not a determinate universe.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19087 - 03/18/07 08:19 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Exactly red. And if the weather is in indeterminant ... then so must be my choice of whether to wear a raincoat. Whether to take the car or walk. Whether to do essentially all of the things to which I might subscribe to free choice ... I chose to drive to work today ... I chose to wear my brown coat rather than the pink one.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19090 - 03/19/07 04:23 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Redewenur wrote:

"By 'predetermined framework', I take it that you mean a framework consisting of factors including genes and environment influences and so on, as discussed previously."

I think we all agree with that now. However the point is, is the future pre-determined? I'd say almost certainly not. However it will be determined by our collective actions in the present. Our actions in the present are influenced, at least to a fairly large extent, by our genes and environment, also as discussed previously. The main thing we can change is our upbringing. Education (in the widest sense) will be able to improve our future. Unfortunately many people are sidetracked by what John Ralston Saul calls false populism and the technique of fear. Now if the Revs and Religion would help us oppose these most of us at SAGG would cease knocking them, perhaps even join them. But religion usually survives through false populism and the technique of fear.

Top
#19097 - 03/19/07 05:53 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Terry wrote:

"However the point is, is the future pre-determined? I'd say almost certainly not. However it will be determined by our collective actions in the present."

- Also, of course, by a host of factors over which we have little or no influence.

I sure you're right about "Education (in the widest sense)". It has the potential to facilitate reason based on universal reality rather than local mythology, i.e., on fact rather than fiction. I say potential, because (a) many people seem to be resistant or impervious to it, and (b) many well educated people continue to carry about with them the excess baggage of mythology. Neither does education guarantee good character.

Terry, I've been trying to find info on J.R. Saul's 'false populism' and 'technique of fear'. No luck so far. Do you know of a link? If not, can you tell us more about them?
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19102 - 03/19/07 09:56 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Rede. It's from his book "The Collapse of Globalism". The actual comment is probably not on any site on Internet. The book is pretty good (although see some of the reviews) as is "Voltaire's Bastards". I recomend if you get the chance and time to read them. I guess you've already found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ralston_Saul

Interview that sums up his ideas:

http://www.motherjones.com/news/qa/2005/11/saul.html

Reviews of the book, not all complimentary by any means:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/custome...155&s=books

Top
#19104 - 03/19/07 10:20 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Originally Posted By: DA Morgan
One can throw a deck of cards into the air an infinite number of times using the exact same mechanism and force and get an infinite number of results.


Dan,

You know as well as I that it would be impossible in reality to recreate the exact conditions for this experiment more than once. Only if the starting conditions and all forces involved could be known to be exactly the same each time would we be able to say what you do.

Whether the universe is determinate or not seems to me to be a question science cannot answer.

If there is not true randomness in the universe then it is determinate and each action will proceed in a defined way from a previous action from big bang to ...

Science cannot prove true randomness exists because it is possible that we simply cannot see or do not understand the causes of the seemingly random occurrence.

Science cannot prove true randomness does not exist because there could always be another unknown layer of random uncaused effects underneath whatever it is we are examining.

Is the weather truly indeterminate? If we had all possible variables are you sure we could not predict it accurately?

How can we know?

It's funny that there is no science in the thread at the moment, but opinion and philosophical musings.

Determinacy & free will seem to be simple matters of personal intuition.

It doesn't feel as if we live in a determinate universe...but that may just be an illusion.

Blacknad.

Top
#19110 - 03/19/07 04:29 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Blacknad]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Blacknad.

I'd just like to comment on this:

"Is the weather truly indeterminate? If we had all possible variables are you sure we could not predict it accurately?"

The problem of predictability in chaotic systems is something that has become known as 'the butterfly effect'. The weather is an example of what's called 'a chaotic system', and the butterfly effect takes its name from the fact that some very trivial event such as a butterfly flapping its wings can eventually have an effect on the weather. The point is that the behaviour of a chaotic system is highly dependent upon initial conditions. The smallest variation in those conditions causes a very much greater variation in the system with the passage of time. For this reason, although the accuracy of weather forecasting can undoubtedly be greatly improved by the use of supercomputers to analyse the data, the limitation will always be the data itself. For total accuracy, there would need to be an infinite number of sensors, and infinite computing power. My understanding is that there will probably never be enough data to provide for reasonably accurate forecasts beyond a few weeks. I think I may not be explaining this too well. I can recommend an excellent book by James Gleick called 'Chaos - Making a New Science', published by Penguin Books in 1988.

From Wikipedia:
"In mathematics and physics, chaos theory describes the behavior of certain nonlinear dynamical systems that under certain conditions exhibit dynamics that are sensitive to initial conditions (popularly referred to as the butterfly effect). As a result of this sensitivity, the behavior of chaotic systems appears to be random, because of an exponential growth of errors in the initial conditions. This happens even though these systems are deterministic in the sense that their future dynamics are well defined by their initial conditions, and there are no random elements involved. This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

see also:
Chaos Theory: A Brief Introduction
http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html
_____

Terry. Thanks for the links. I've downloaded the 'motherjones.com'. I'll read through it later.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19119 - 03/19/07 07:53 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Cheers Red.

My question was not really about what is practically possible, but what it theoretically possible.

For the purpose of this debate it is not important whether we could ever have enough computing power to predict chaotic events.

I am simply asking whether everything in the universe is subject to definable laws or whether things truly happen without cause and are therefore truly random occurrences.

A universe without uncaused random events is determinate.

I am looking for someone to tell me, is radioactive decay uncaused?

Physicist Victor Stenger (Emeritus Professor of Physics and Astronomy, University of Hawaii and Adjunct Professor of Philosophy, University of Colorado) says the following of atomic transitions and radioactive decay of nuclei:

"...we have no current basis for assuming such cause exists."

Doesn't seem to be a definitive answer.

Blacknad.





Blacknad.

Top
#19131 - 03/20/07 02:43 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Blacknad]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Blacknad wrote:

"It's funny that there is no science in the thread at the moment, but opinion and philosophical musings."

That's because it's "Knock Revs and Religion". We've entered the realm of speculation in a big way. By the way, I'd logged out by the time you shouted.

Redewenur wrote about reasonably accurate weather forecasts beyond a few weeks. I don't know about where you live but even next day is often a big problem here. Mind you a narrow peninsular stuck out in the middle of the sea would be a problem.

Top
#19136 - 03/20/07 04:01 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad wrote:
" be impossible in reality to recreate the exact conditions for this experiment more than once. Only if the starting conditions and all forces involved could be known to be exactly the same each time would we be able to say what you do."

Actually I don't. I'll grant you I might have to throw them in superfluid He3 or a Bose-Einstein condensate. But every scrap of knowledge we have known to us supports the results being different.

Blacknad wrote:
"Is the weather truly indeterminate? If we had all possible variables are you sure we could not predict it accurately?"

Yes it is. And Albert Einstein fought against this concept never truly accepting it during his entire life. And everything we know today supports the fact that he was incorrect. Look up "EPR" with Google or in Wikipedia for more on this.

I know it is really uncomfortable for humans but think Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Think Schroedinger's cat. That is truly the universe in which we live.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19137 - 03/20/07 04:03 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
blacknad wrote:
"My question was not really about what is practically possible, but what it theoretically possible."

I know. And my response to you has nothing to do with practicality. It is known to be impossible by any known method. Remember Heisenberg ... it is impossible to know where anything is and also know its speed. You can know one but not both. Ever! Even in theory.

No matter how hard you, or I, or Einstein, might have wished it otherwise.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19138 - 03/20/07 05:03 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Blacknad wrote:
"I am simply asking whether everything in the universe is subject to definable laws or whether things truly happen without cause and are therefore truly random occurrences."

My mistake. I presumed that you'd read the earlier posts.

DA has summed it up.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19155 - 03/21/07 02:14 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
So does this mean that there is no such thing as chaos!! I am a bit disappointed at that. Wouldn't determinate chaos be not-chaos because it is determinated? (I've just spent ages rereading the posts and still don't completely understand them because, I think, I like the idea of freeform chaos more than freewill/ determinism, but also because my brain hurts now!)

Top
#19163 - 03/21/07 04:44 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Ellis ... I'm not sure I follow the reasoning that led you to write: "So does this mean that there is no such thing as chaos"

Please clarify how you got there.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19170 - 03/21/07 05:29 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Blacknad felt the same way I think. The discussion seemed to be heading in that direction I thought. ie basically that the universe is a determinate universe because of the operation of the natural laws of physics and therefore random acts are impossible. I'm probably wrong and shouldn't be commenting, but it's a really interesting discussion so what the heck! Go easy on me I am not a scientist! But I do like (without any real evidence) the rather crazy notion of chaos as the source of everything!

Top
#19173 - 03/21/07 06:29 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Ellis.

I know the feeling, I'm not a scientist, either.

"The discussion seemed to be heading in that direction I thought. ie basically that the universe is a determinate universe because of the operation of the natural laws of physics and therefore random acts are impossible."

Just the opposite. The discussion was nothing more than an academic exercise. It wound up with the foregone conclusion: as long quantum theory holds true, i.e., that, at the quantum level truly random events do occur, then the logical conclusion is that the universe cannot be determinate. This was what Einstein found difficult to swallow, prompting him to say "God does not play dice with the universe".

Chaos is an interesting new science (mid-twentieth cent.) which was launched mainly by the research of a meteorologist feeding simulated weather data into a computer. He found that a minute change in the initial data eventually had a radical effect on the simulation results. Although I've read quite a bit about it, I don't pretend to understand at all well - it's a maths based science steeped if fractal mathematics, and specialist at that! Some scientists still argue about its veracity, but it's making headway in many sciences. It has, so I hear, even lead to the production of an improved heart pacemaker.

Chaos, in 'Chaos Theory', is not the same as the 'chaos' of common usage. In a 'chaotic system', all states of the system, at any point on the time line, are determinate but, because of the complexity involved, they cannot be predicted.

I expect you?re thinking, "How can anything be predicted if the theory quantum mechanics is true?". I think the answer is that at the macro level, e.g., potting the black ball, quantum events cancel out. Oops! Is this going to start another debate!
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19179 - 03/21/07 12:43 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Re the above: I may need putting straight here, but I think it's the same kind of thing with the radioactivity half-life of an isotope. It's not possible the predict when a particular atom will decay, but it is possible to predict the rate of gross decay. I suppose someone might post something more about probabilties, 'sum over histories', or some such thing (I hope). I've only looked at these things from a very great height, so I don't need to be reminded that I'm ignorant about the details.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19187 - 03/21/07 03:04 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
The universe by definition is indeterminate. Redewenur's example of radioactivity being a class proof.

What we see at the macroscopic level is the result of averaging.

The chaos at the quantum level averages out in such a manner that macroscopic things become predictable.

Here's an example to illustrate it.

The traffic pattern in the morning commute is always different. Different cars leave their houses at different times taking different routes (lanes, speeds, different accidents, etc.) to go from home to work. Yet the macroscopic affect is predictable.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19215 - 03/21/07 10:49 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
DA wrote:

"The universe by definition is indeterminate."

And therefore unknowable. Does anyone have difficulty with the idea that what we believe is a product of our genes and our environment? This doesn't necessarily mean what that we are going to believe or do does not contain an element of randomness.


Edited by terrytnewzealand (03/21/07 10:52 PM)

Top
#19219 - 03/21/07 11:28 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
This is where we came in, a week ago, isn't it? My answer is "no difficulty", if you include in your definition of 'environment' all possible variables both internal and external. The internal should include any normal process or disease process that may influence our state of mind. For example, damage to part of the frontal cerebral lobe can limit emotional responsiveness and compassion; and, as we've read in another thread, stimulation of the 'God Module' might also have a dramatic effect. The entire endocrine system may also be an influence. I'd say the entire physiological machine, as an integrated, interactive, interdependent whole has an influence; not just the genes. Then there's the external environment. Particularly important might be human relationships and interactions - hero worship, attraction, charismatic influence, dependence, social role, family role - all part of the flood of data that may modify the condition of the individual, and modify his attitude, behavior, philosophy and beliefs. Then, of course, culture and education.

Put all that together, and if you can call it 'our genes and our environment', then I can agree with the proposition. Otherwise, I guess not.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19221 - 03/21/07 11:41 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Of course Rede. Anything for you. We could put in an asterisk.


Edited by terrytnewzealand (03/21/07 11:42 PM)

Top
#19222 - 03/21/07 11:46 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Glad we've settled that then. I hardly expected that your original simple question would be capable of that much milage!
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19380 - 03/23/07 10:26 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Take a brief excursion to an entertaining article -

MY GOD PROBLEM, By Natalie Angier (Pulitzer Prize for reporting as a science writer for The New York Times)
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/angier06/angier06_index.html
_______
Also:
BEYOND REDUCTIONISM Reinventing The Sacred, By Stuart A. Kauffman (emeritus professor of biochemistry at the University of Pennsylvania, a MacArthur Fellow and an external professor at the Santa Fe Institute.

excerpt:

"On the other side of this vast divide than those who hold to a transcendent God and His authority for meaning and values, are the innumerable secular humanists, children of the enlightenment and contemporary science, who hold firmly to reality as revealed by science, find values in their love for their families and friends, a general sense of fairness and a morality that needs no basis in God's word. Yet we secular humanists have paid an unspoken price for our firm sense that (reductionist) science tells us what is real. First, we have no well wrought scientific basis for our humanity - despite the interesting fact that quantum mechanics on the Copenhagen interpretation assumes free willed physicists who choose what quantum features to measure and thereby change the physical world. The two cultures, science and humanities, remain firmly un-united. And equally important, we have been subtly robbed of our deep capacity for spiritualism. We have come to believe that spirituality is inherently co-localized with a belief in God, and that without such a belief, spirituality is inherently foolish, questionable, without foundation, wishful thinking, silly."

Full article:
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/kauffman06/kauffman06_index.html
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19396 - 03/23/07 05:05 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
Wayne Zeller Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 120
Loc: Southern California
I haven't had time to read the second article yet, but the first one was ... interesting. It's unfortunate that it was so condescending to religion, though. She could have made her points without reducing herself to taunting.

I was glad, however, to see this little blurb:
Quote:
Indeed, many [scientists] are quick to point out that the Catholic Church has endorsed the theory of evolution and that it sees no conflict between a belief in God and the divinity of Jesus and the notion of evolution by natural selection. If the pope is buying it, the reason for most Americans' resistance to evolution must have less to do with religion than with a lousy advertising campaign.


I think most people who don't believe in evolution are unaware that the pope of the Catholic church (who is seen as one heck of a theologian, even by non-Catholics) declared that evolution isn't a problem for the church. That's a message that needs to get out there. But, as the above excerpt states, evolution needs a better ad campaign.

w


Edited by Wayne Zeller (03/23/07 05:05 PM)

Top
#19400 - 03/23/07 05:22 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
A great editorial. Thanks for posting the link.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19404 - 03/23/07 06:04 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Wayne Zeller]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Wayne Zeller
It's unfortunate that it was so condescending to religion, though. She could have made her points without reducing herself to taunting.

Religion in America has, in recent years, been encroaching upon - or should I say stomping all over - the territory of science. Maybe this is exclusively the doing of the Christian fundamentalists to whom you've referred. The result, whatever, has been serious problems with science education in schools. I'm reluctant to raise the name 'Bush' yet again, but he gave his stamp of approval for the teaching of non-science nonsense in science classes. From what I read, science seems to be reclaiming lost territory, but only after a series of battles. Little wonder that we see reactions like that of Natalie Angier.


_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19407 - 03/23/07 06:21 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
Wayne Zeller Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 120
Loc: Southern California
Indeed. The stickers on textbooks stating the evolution is "only" a theory should be criminalized. The people who made those stickers know what is meant by "theory" in science, but because it is handier for their agenda they pretend that it only has its vernacular meaning. They intentionally phrase their arguments to use the vernacular meaning of the word so that it seems to marginalize the theory.

I think the majority of them have their hearts in the right place and simply need to get their brains to the right place too. But there is a movement within the right wing Christian Fundamentalist camp to use the beliefs of their gullible followers for political gain. If you get huge groups of people believing your claptrap and then manage to force a state to teach your claptrap to children, then you suddenly gain political power and votes. Even if you're not after politics, it's a great way to incent all those followers to send you gobs of cash.

Falwell and those of his ilk are too obstinate to feel shame, but they should be wallowing in it. They preach their hypocrisy in ways calculated to bring them personal gain. The scandals in the Catholic Church right now pale in comparison, I think, to what would be brought to light if all those people could be unmasked and shown for what they are.

</rant>

w

Top
#19413 - 03/23/07 07:17 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Wayne Zeller]
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Originally Posted By: Wayne Zeller
I think most people who don't believe in evolution are unaware that the pope of the Catholic church (who is seen as one heck of a theologian, even by non-Catholics) declared that evolution isn't a problem for the church. That's a message that needs to get out there. But, as the above excerpt states, evolution needs a better ad campaign.


Is only partially the case I think.

The latest surveys in the UK show only half the population believes in evolution.

We are by no means a religious country, with a very small percentage of Christians etc.

We teach only evolution in schools and no Creationism and have done so since I was at school in the eighties. All of our Natural History TV programs are saturated with it.

We have no overarching paradigm that prevents us from believing it - the overwhelming worldview is agnostic materialism.

The problem, I think, for evolution is that it is counter-intuitive.

I have no reason to deny it at all and I accept the science (apart from the thousands of evolutionary psychology 'just-so stories').

But even I have difficulty when I think about the astounding complexity of the brain and mind. If it uses quantum effects to get past determinacy then I have even more difficulty believing that an unguided natural process could come up with something so amazing.

I am not alone in thinking this way. The more facts we gather about the brain, the less light is shed upon how the brain/mind interface works. It becomes ever more complex, the further our knowledge advances - we discover ever deeper rabbit holes.

I am certainly not saying I would rule out evolution as a completely godless and natural process. I just find it very hard to believe - and so it seems does half of the UK.

Blacknad.

Top
#19421 - 03/23/07 07:43 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Blacknad]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Blacknad
Your school days were a little later than mine (-'67), so I suppose things had changed. I was taught nothing about evolution. When I did learn about it though, I didn't find it counter-intuitive.

There's no denying that the brain is breathtakingly complex. It's had a while to evolve though, and we see even bigger brains in other mammals. Perhaps they are less complex, I don't know.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19427 - 03/23/07 08:42 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad wrote:
"I am certainly not saying I would rule out evolution as a completely godless and natural process. I just find it very hard to believe - and so it seems does half of the UK."

I understand your point. Yet in the same breath you will, I think, also acknowledge that you can not name a single entity in the entire universe that does not evolve.

How does that make sense?

I think it far more incredible were it that we have not changed than that we have.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19456 - 03/24/07 09:06 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
At the risk of offending some people whose views I generally respect the bit that struck me in Redewenur's first link was:

"In other words, for horoscope fans, the burden of proof is entirely on them, the poor gullible gits; while for the multitudes who believe that, in one way or another, a divine intelligence guides the path of every leaping lepton, there is no demand for evidence, no skepticism to surmount, no need to worry."

Sorry guys. I couldn't resist.

Top
#19466 - 03/24/07 11:02 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Terry
I doubt that anyone's going to let your tyres down - there probably aren't any astrology fans here <g>

It might be surprising, but Natalie Angier represents a minority viewpoint. I don't recall where I found this snippet:

"About 6 in 10 Americans, according to a 2005 Harris Poll, believe in the devil and hell, and about 7 in 10 believe in angels, heaven and the existence of miracles and of life after death. A 2006 survey at Baylor University found that 92 percent of respondents believe in a personal God ? that is, a God with a distinct set of character traits ranging from 'distant' to 'benevolent'."
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19517 - 03/25/07 05:47 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Rede. I think it's in the same article. Interestingly I was halfway through writing my earlier post. Knock on the door. Jehovah's Witnesses. From two doors away. Can't be too offensive to them. Nice people actually. Besides the bass player in one of my bands is JW. I was forced to admit to my visitors that many people have changed their lives for the better on conversion. What do we do for such people if religion is discarded?

Top
#19519 - 03/25/07 08:40 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Terry
I think your approach has a lot to be said for it. Recent posts (elsewhere) have drawn my attention to the likelihood that I lack sensitivity to personal feelings in the matter. Maybe it's impossible to criticise beliefs without implying criticism of the person who holds them.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19528 - 03/25/07 01:03 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
TNZ asks:
"What do we do for such people if religion is discarded?"

The question is not one of "do something for such people" or "burn them at the stake." If we didn't do so much the screw people up in the first place they might not need so much help.

Our societies invest substantial effort in personal destruction. We do it in the form of alcohol and drugs, we do it in the form of tolerating repeat criminal offenders, we do it in the form of giving lip service to the invisible purple rhinos, etc. And who the ... gives a rip whether Brit and Paris and the rest of the bimboettes get up tomorrow morning and yet we poison the minds of young people by pretending they matter.

I give no quarter to anyone selling stuff door to door. Not vacuum cleaners and not god. If these people have time to donate to the community then let them pick up trash, feed the homeless, and protest against war.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19529 - 03/25/07 01:06 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Redewenur wrote:
"Recent posts (elsewhere) have drawn my attention to the likelihood that I lack sensitivity to personal feelings in the matter. Maybe it's impossible to criticise beliefs without implying criticism of the person who holds them."

I resemble that.

I am stuck between holding these people to be victims of brain washing and contempt for not willing to invest effort in using their brains.

Thousands of years of wars and destruction almost all of it caused by mental laziness.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19550 - 03/26/07 04:12 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
DA wrote:

"If we didn't do so much the screw people up in the first place they might not need so much help."

The point is, Dan, they are already screwed up. It's too late to alter that fact. I've seen several people gain comfort from their belief in God. Perhaps that change comes from their change of friends of course. They no longer associate with the crims they used to hang out with. Religion does act as a sort of safety net for some people. I agree they could easily find something better to do but as we decided earlier on this thread (ha ha) people are a product of their genes and their upbringing.


Edited by terrytnewzealand (03/26/07 04:12 AM)

Top
#19560 - 03/26/07 04:20 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
TNZ wrote:
"I've seen several people gain comfort from their belief in God."

I have too. But I'm not sure that comfort is what they need. I've seen a lot of people get better after competent treatment by psychotherapists with antidepressants and antianxiety drugs.

My guess is that if you stacked all of the DD degrees against the MD degrees you'd find an unequivocal evidence that professional treatment produces better results.

Sure we are already screwed up. Thousands of years doing the same thing over-and-over-and-over-and-over again should have taught us something. IT ISN'T WORKING. Time we tried something else.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19563 - 03/26/07 04:47 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Comfort? Maybe. Uncertainty also. So many seem to spend their lives trying to justify their beliefs to themselves and to others. Scientists do the the same; the difference is, scientists know that they're uncertain.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19570 - 03/26/07 05:25 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
Wayne Zeller Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 120
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: redewenur
the difference is, scientists know that they're uncertain.


Show me a religious person who is certain and I'll show you an unthinking fundamentalist whacko.

Every discerning religious person has crises of faith. I'm quite sure that even the Pope, when he is alone in the dark after a long day of visiting the victims of tragedy, sometimes entertains the possibility that it's all for naught. It is from this that we can grow, though. It is as critical as finding ever more accurate ways to test accepted scientific theory.

There have been times in history where various religions have been corrupted by their leaders. Today we have militaristic fundamentalist Islam, propagated by fundies carrying around bastardized translations of the Qur'an. During the Crusades we had corrupt leaders in the Catholic church, selling indulgences and abusing their position to gain political power and to kill their detractors.

People sin. Power corrupts. We are human, and subject to human weaknesses. This in no way indicates that the messages of these religions are not important. That people can co-opt them and abuse them and use them to their advantage is a measure of the baseness of man, not of the religion.

Great works have been done in the name of religion. Amazing acts of compassion. People don't remember those. They prefer to think of the times that people have abused the institutions and used them for their own purposes. I suppose that's part of the human condition, though: Recalling the bad more clearly than the good.

w

Top
#19576 - 03/26/07 05:54 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Wayne Zeller]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Am I wrong in thinking that you look to science to try to resolve theological uncertainties? - My questions are serious, not to be misconstrued as a means of raising your blood pressure. As I've indicated elsewhere, I don't share your religious perspective but some of your ideas are not alien to my way of thinking.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#19578 - 03/26/07 05:59 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Wayne Zeller]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Wayne wrote:
"even the Pope, when he is alone in the dark after a long day of visiting the victims of tragedy, sometimes entertains the possibility that it's all for naught."

While Jesus never actually said it your bible puts the following words into his mouth:
"My God, My God, why hath thou forsaken Me?"
The ultimate act of hypocrisy but clearly indicative of reality.

Wayne wrote:
"There have been times in history where various religions have been corrupted by their leaders."

Let me turn that on its head if I may ... Can you name a time in history when religions have NOT been corrupted by their leaders? I can't. Trying to find times in the last 1,500 years when Christianity was not killing its own in a power struggle will leave you with days not months or years when it wasn't spilling blood.

Wayne wrote:
"People sin. Power corrupts. We are human, and subject to human weaknesses. This in no way indicates that the messages of these religions are not important."

But it may be an indication they are irrelevant. An intelligent and objective being might surmise they are as much a part of the problem as part of the solution and that so far show no evidence of being part of the solution.

People do not sin. Religion defines what people do as sin.

We are definitely human. But any set of rules and regulations that refuses to accept that humanity is doomed to failure no matter how well meaning.

We have been trying to manage human behavior with religion for more than 10,000 years. I see little evidence that it has been effective. I can show you a lot of evidence that indicates that education and elimination of poverty are.

Wayne wrote:
"Great works have been done in the name of religion. Amazing acts of compassion. People don't remember those."

Nonsense. We all can quote chapter and verse of Bach and Michaelangelo, etc. No one has forgotten any of it. But some of us also remember great acts of murder, terrorism, and destruction and integrity demands you acknowledge both.

My take is that those "amazing acts of compassion" happen between people without regard to religion and that many were forced upon us by the cruel and hypocritical acts of the very same religions and people acting in the name of religions.

Remember every king that ever separated a head from a body in Europe ... did so in the name of God and King. Every bloody one.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19581 - 03/26/07 06:34 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Originally Posted By: DA Morgan
We have been trying to manage human behavior ... I can show you a lot of evidence that indicates that education and elimination of poverty are.


There's a lot to pick at there. But just this one sentence for starters.

Britain is the most educated it has ever been. More people go onto university than ever. There is less real poverty than there has ever been. Poverty is now having to be defined as 'Relative Poverty' and being in poverty means you can't afford a DVD.

Crime is rampant. People recking their bodies with alcohol is endemic. Teenage pregnacy is fashionable. Drug use amongst children of 8 years upwards is rife. UNICEF reports show that it is the worst place in the developed world to be a child.

England is well educated. England has the fifth strongest economy in the world. England is well-off. England is CRAPPY.

What is your evidence that Education and lack of Poverty helps to manage human behaviour?

Blacknad.

Top
#19582 - 03/26/07 06:39 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Blacknad]
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Hi Dan,

This is Blacknad's wife. In my view, education does help in eliminating poverty, but what education does not do is eliminate corruption. Basically, sometimes, educating the minority (in poor countries) goes side by side with corruption leading to more poverty. Ironic!!!

Bye for now.

Whitenad.

Top
#19585 - 03/26/07 07:03 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Blacknad]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad asks:
"What is your evidence that Education and lack of Poverty helps to manage human behaviour?"

Well until Tony got you into Iraq you'd gone the longest in your history without spilling blood for the Empire. I think that is something to be proud of.

And I think you will find that if you look at where that crime and bad behaviour is occurring it is in those parts of your society that are least educated and have the least in the way of relative prosperity.

Note that I said "relative prosperity." The measure bankers love is not relevant. It is not the number of shekels in your pocket but rather the disparity between the richest and the poorest. And those who are poor in the UK would need a telescope to see the amount of money Beckham has.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19586 - 03/26/07 07:13 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Blacknad]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
I am honoured. Again an opportunity for pleasant discourse with England's finest.

I would argue with you were it not that you are correct. One can not separate ethical and civil standards from education.

Allow me, if I may, to refer you to the words of Thomas Jefferson:

"I know no safe depositary of the ultimate powers of the society
but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened
enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the
remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power." --Thomas Jefferson to William C. Jarvis, 1820.

"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the
people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories. And to render even them safe, their minds must be improved to a certain degree." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia, 1782.

"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people. Enable them
to see that it is their interest to preserve peace and order, and
they will preserve them. And it requires no very high degree of
education to convince them of this. They are the only sure
reliance for the preservation of our liberty." --Thomas Jefferson
to James Madison, 1787.

"Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with
their own government." --Thomas Jefferson to Richard Price, 1789.

"Whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, the
people, if well informed, may be relied on to set them to rights."
--Thomas Jefferson to Richard Price, 1789.

"A system of general instruction, which shall reach every
description of our citizens from the richest to the poorest, as
it was the earliest, so will it be the latest of all the public
concerns in which I shall permit myself to take an interest."
--Thomas Jefferson to Joseph C. Cabell, 1818.

"The tax which will be paid for [the] purpose [of education] is
not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings,
priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave the
people in ignorance." --Thomas Jefferson to George Wythe, 1786.

"It becomes expedient for promoting the public happiness that
those persons, whom nature has endowed with genius and virtue,
should be rendered by liberal education worthy to receive, and
able to guard the sacred deposit of the rights and liberties of
their fellow citizens; and that they should be called to that
charge without regard to wealth, birth or other accidental
condition or circumstance." --Thomas Jefferson: Diffusion of
Knowledge Bill, 1779.

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of
civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
--Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816.

"No other sure foundation can be devised for the preservation of
freedom and happiness... Preach a crusade against ignorance;
establish and improve the law for educating the common people.
Let our countrymen know that the people alone can protect us
against the evils [of misgovernment]." --Thomas Jefferson to
George Wythe, 1786.

Warmest regards.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19591 - 03/26/07 07:27 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Wayne Zeller Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 120
Loc: Southern California
I'm not talkin' Michaelangelo. I'm talkin' here and now.

In 2000, more than 5.9 million people received emergency services such as cash assistance, clothing, help with utility bills, temporary shelter, and food through soup kitchens and food banks.

In 2000, more than 4 million people received social services including adoption, family support, help for at-risk children, housing assistance, job training, respite care, home care, parenting education, pregnancy counseling, prison ministry, refugee and immigration assistance, and treatment for drug and alcohol abuse.

And that's just from one single organization run by the Catholic Church, called "Catholic Charities", and is just one typical year.

That doesn't even take into account the excellent schools provided not just by Catholics but by a lot of other religions as well. People complain about public schools being so terrible - and they are - but don't realize that the vast majority of private schools (most of which are FAR better than most public schools) are provided by religious organizations.

How about all the hospitals provided by various religious organizations?

How about the health care and education opportunities being provided to children and families in third world countries all of the planet?

How about the incredible strides the Catholic church has made in securing women's rights and equality? (So they can't be priests - they still run most of the biggest organizations within the church.)

These are just a small sample of what religious organizations do each and every day to help reduce suffering in the world.

The International Red Cross Organization is the only secular organization to even be comparable in the amount of help given to ease suffering in the world. But Red Cross has a narrower scope. As much good as they have done (and I'm not belittling it - I'm a big Red Cross supporter and I donate platelets every two weeks to the Red Cross), it doesn't hold a candle to the good works by the religious organizations that you so easily dismiss.

If education and the elimination of poverty are what you want, then you should take a closer look at what the Catholic church does, because those are two of its biggest focuses.


Quote:
While Jesus never actually said it your bible puts the following words into his mouth:
"My God, My God, why hath thou forsaken Me?"
The ultimate act of hypocrisy but clearly indicative of reality.


I don't see any hypocrisy there at all. How could he NOT feel forsaken for a while there? Christ didn't say, "God must not be real, or else I wouldn't suffer so." He wasn't talking to the people around him telling them that he was abandoning God. He was pleading TO God, in desperate pain and suffering. It wouldn't make sense for him to be addressing God if, as you say, he was hypocritical and didn't believe his own teachings. Remember that while Christ and God are two aspects of the same being, his incarnation here on Earth was as a mortal man. He had the same temptations, the same desires, the same motivations as any other man. That he was able to live without giving into sin was only due to his divine nature. So when he hung dying from the cross, of COURSE he felt forsaken. That it was in fulfillment of prophesy and must happen in order to form his kingdom would be of little comfort to a man with spikes driven through his wrists and ankles.


I respect your beliefs, Dan. You have every right to deny God. That's fine with me. But I would ask that you stop behaving as though the religious organizations have done nothing good for the world. You know better. Whether their foundations are based on truth or fiction, there are millions and millions (perhaps billions) of people in the world who have received direct help from one or more religious organizations that wouldn't exist at all if not for faith in God.

w




Edited by Wayne Zeller (03/26/07 07:35 PM)

Top
#19601 - 03/26/07 08:11 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Wayne Zeller]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Wayne wrote:
"In 2000, more than 5.9 million people received emergency services such as cash assistance, clothing, help with utility bills, temporary shelter, and food through soup kitchens and food banks."

I am too. But peel back the onion a few layers and what do you find? A religious establishment that is wealthy in treasure reaped for years on the backs of the poor. And why do those people require help with their utility bills? Why do they need food banks? I think an objective look (not in 2007 but historical) will show culpability on behalf of those wishing to be credited with helping those who suffer.

And where are those very same churches when we ask for condoms to prevent disease and birth control to stem the flow of children who are destined for poverty?

Wayne asks:
"I don't see any hypocrisy there at all. How could he NOT feel forsaken for a while there?"

How could he possibly? Wasn't he part of the trinity? Wasn't he in on the plan? Do we have a case of schizophrenia going on here where 2/3 of the trinity are pulling the strings and 1/3 is clueless?

This is part of my personal problem with much religious discourse. It asks us to not think too hard about what is behind the curtain.

If your father is President of the United States I can understand asking the "forsaken" question. But if you, personally, are a manifestation of a god then the question is preposterous.

Please don't be offended Wayne. I've no problem with many religious organizations and some of what they are doing in 2007. But it is disingenuous to say "look at us today" and not realize that the "us" of today is the direct product of thousands of years of horrors. Some so recent that they happened within my lifetime.

I applaud the PM of Japan reversing himself on whether an apology was due for the "comfort girls" of WWII. That took courage and honor. Something far more important in Asian than Occidental culture. I am waiting for Western religions to demonstrate that they have learned the concept of shame.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19609 - 03/26/07 08:44 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Wayne Zeller Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 120
Loc: Southern California
Oh, come off it.

The Pope could call you on the phone and apologize personally and it wouldn't be enough for you.

You've said you are waiting for an apology for Pius XII looking the other way during the Shoah. That apology was made by Pope John Paul II, but was ignored by people like yourself too eager to show their moral superiority over the greatest force of good to exist today on this planet.

The church has made mistakes. I'm willing to bet you have too. The difference is that the church is willing to forgive. You prefer to hold a grudge.

I tell you that the Cathlic church and other religious institutions existing today help more people than all the secular organizations combined, and you sidestep it and point at what happened during its more corrupt periods.

You pretend to be trying to show your unbiased interpretation of fact, when you actually just continually dismiss anything good so that you can keep pointing at the past.

Quote:
And where are those very same churches when we ask for condoms to prevent disease and birth control to stem the flow of children who are destined for poverty?


An organization as big as the Roman Catholic church can't spin on a dime. Benedict is working towards reversing the ban on condoms even as we speak. But if he just comes out and reverses the church's teachings on birth control he risks splintering the church. That would do more harm than good. Instead, he must take small steps, one at a time, and show his followers who currently are against condom use that he is examining the issue closely. So he has ordered a study to be done to show the effectiveness of condom use in stopping the spread of diseases. Do you think he just did this so that he could slap the researchers in the face when they come back and tell him that they work? No! He did it so that he could begin to institute a much needed reform without looking like he's doing it on a whim.

Quote:
How could he possibly? Wasn't he part of the trinity? Wasn't he in on the plan? Do we have a case of schizophrenia going on here where 2/3 of the trinity are pulling the strings and 1/3 is clueless?


As much as Christ is God, when he was here on Earth it was as a man. After his resurrection he performed miracles in his own name. During his life before his crucifixion, he asked God to perform them for him or asked God to grant him the ability to perform them. He prayed constantly. Do you think he was talking to himself? No.


Quote:
This is part of my personal problem with much religious discourse. It asks us to not think too hard about what is behind the curtain.

You should think harder about what is behind the curtain. I do. An unexamined faith is useless faith. Faith should not be based on na?vety.

Remember Dan: Blind denial is as easy as blind faith and operates at the same level of validity. If you think you can get mad enough at God to make him cease to exist, then you should maybe go talk to an intelligent priest - preferably one better-versed in the field of Christian Apologetics than I - who can rebut your arguments with better expertise than my own.

w




Edited by Wayne Zeller (03/26/07 08:46 PM)

Top
#19613 - 03/26/07 09:01 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Wayne Zeller]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Wayne wrote:
"The Pope could call you on the phone and apologize personally and it wouldn't be enough for you."

You are right of course. I would ask him to sell off the Vatican's art treasures and give the money to Bill Gates to support the fight against malaria.

No one need apologize to me and I am not looking for one. I am not among those harmed and in fact live a reasonably charmed life. But given the choice between dynamiting the Sistine Chapel or curing malaria ... I'd be asking for the blasting cord.

Wayne wrote:
"As much as Christ is God, when he was here on Earth it was as a man."

Of course I read the story. But as a man who did not know the truth?

History is full of people who went to their death willingly because of their faith in nation or religion. I've personally watched someone throw themselves on top of instant and guaranteed death. Are we to believe that the son of god had a lesser commitment?

I am quite familiar with Apologetics. My education is substantially greater than imagine. But then I am also familiar with the fact that there are three different Biblical stories and only one of them has Jesus uttering those words and displaying human emotions. The other two do not support this version. Would you be willing to say the other two are incorrect?
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19623 - 03/26/07 10:22 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Wayne wrote:

"Great works have been done in the name of religion."

Dan sort of commented on this aspect but the great works certainly include art of all kinds. The most amazing music, sculpture and painting have been, and still are, done with the inspiration of religion. Secular art is usually far inferior. I'd be very hesitant to ban religions. Of course the fact religion has been recently used to justify an unjustified invasion and destruction of Mesopotamia influences our attitude.

Dan your quotes from Jefferson were interesting. This bit is alarming though:

"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the
people alone."

I understand that the USA has possibly the lowest participation in elections than any other democratic country. Perhaps it is because the following has been made impossible:

"It becomes expedient for promoting the public happiness that
those persons, whom nature has endowed with genius and virtue,
should be rendered by liberal education worthy to receive, and
able to guard the sacred deposit of the rights and liberties of
their fellow citizens; and that they should be called to that
charge without regard to wealth, birth or other accidental
condition or circumstance."

As Bob Dylan sang, "Money doesn't talk, it swears".

Top
#19629 - 03/26/07 10:38 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
TNZ wrote:
"I'd be very hesitant to ban religions."

I will oppose anyone wishing to ban religion. Just as I would oppose anyone wishing to ban any other form of free speech or free expression. The danger is far greater from the ban than from what is being banned.

That said ... I think religions should be seen for what they are. Free associations of individuals no different from any other and they should be subject to the same taxes and laws.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#19635 - 03/26/07 11:04 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Da wrote;

"I think religions should be seen for what they are. Free associations of individuals no different from any other".

Agreed.

Top
#19676 - 03/28/07 03:32 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
The last couple of evenings I watched:
[url=HTTP://WWW.TVO.ORG]HTTP://WWW.TVO.ORG[/url]
ONTARIO's public TV is currently featuring ?Five Days of Faith?. The program is The Agenda, with Steve Paikin, Airing on TVO at 8 pm March 26 through 30, 2007

To believe or not to believe: what are the questions?

Day One: Monday March 26
The Phenomenon of Religion
Has there been a resurgence of religion, or did it never die? Would we invent religion if it didn?t already exist?

Day Two: Tuesday March 27
Science vs. Religion
Can one be a scientist and still believe in God or the Bible? Are science and the scientific method compatible with religious faith?
======================================
It was indeed a pleasant experience to see a variety of scholars--Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Budhists, and others the nature and function and value of all the great religions, with any personal attacks.

This evening the focus was on science and religion. There were atheists, Christians, Jews, agnostics, evangelicals, liberals, philosophers.

One theologian, Dennis Lamoreaux, was also a Ph.D in bilogy who accepts the theory of evolution. He identified himself as an evangelical and an evolutionist.

Even one of the atheists, Dr. Jerry Coyne, biologist,
http://pondside.uchicago.edu/ecol-evol/faculty/coyne_j.html
accepted that spiritual component in nature--what one of the panel called a natural theology.

Despite the controversial topics, it was such a pleasant experience to hear this kind of gracious conversation.


_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#19692 - 03/28/07 06:11 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
ABOUT FIVE DAYS FOR FAITH
The detailed-filled programs which I watched made it very clear that some very qualified scientists are also relgious and believe in God in one way or another. Even those who have with little or no religion--that is a belief in God, or the supernatural--spoke with respect of those who do. The point was made that many of the early American scientists, such as Benjamin Franklin, preferred deism to theism. Deism is still the option for many.

ABOUT DEISM
http://www.deism.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#19751 - 03/29/07 07:23 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
This should be read in conjunction with my recent post in EVIDENCE FOR GOD:
=================
IS THIS PART OF THE FORUM ABOUT THE HARD SCIENCES?
Unless I miss my guess, this part of the over-all Scienceagogo is not about any of the hard sciences, chemistry, physics, mathematics and the like. Isn't it called NOT QUITE SCIENCE FORUM? And didn't Kate squelch earlier attempts, even before I appeared, to have this thread killed?

And while you are at it, tell us how come so many ARE interested in reading the few posts to which Wayne, I and others write.

The latest count in: The Evidence-for-God thread alone, started by Tim, has 5,746 clicks. Amazing! Lurkers, do you want this thread dumped by two obscurants.

Add this to the three started by me and a friend of mine
and the total jumps to nearly 10,000 clicks. Not bad!

Seeing that this Site depends on getting advertisments, it seems to me that clicks on threads count for something.

Now let those who have it give us the evidence that readers are not interested in reading what is contained in the the few threads which I frequent.

Kate, as I have always said: Feel free to correct and/or instruct me. I am always open to positive criticisms.


Edited by Revlgking (03/29/07 10:08 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#21678 - 05/18/07 10:57 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
bgmark Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 17
sad is likely to be a myth just like attention defecit disorder, to make psychologists and docyters more money. How on earth did eskomos ever survive all thses years without the temptation to kill themselves.

Concerning most reverands, most teach a false salvation method, based on early church teachers that are not in the Bible, who later taught torture and then burning people at the stake was all part of the gospel. For light disenters they had there tongues burnt through with a hot iron. This is the doctrine that most Bible schools teach, but minus the torture and burning at the satke as that is un pc these days

Yes sure many teleavengalists and most churches believe in tihting which is not mentioned in the new testament, and does put some people off. However some do preach salvation and would no doubt save many people.
_________________________
HT
http://judgement-against-the-nations.com

Top
#21683 - 05/19/07 03:32 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: bgmark]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
bgmark, thanks for dropping in, and for your honest criticisms. I have little or no respect for most TV evangelists. Perhaps there are a few, very few, worthy of respect.

About tithing: I believe that tithers are people who look after themselves, their families and others who need employment, and pay their bills. We need to give people a hand up, not a hand out.

Let us ask others: What is the best way to serve the common good. Is it not about keeping the Golden Rule of service to others?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#21684 - 05/19/07 04:43 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
What is the best way to serve the common good? Is it not to be kind in word, thought and deed? If one can keep that thought foremost, all else will necessarily fall into place behind it. I preach tolerance of others and recognition of differences and celebration of the same. For if we were all made in the same mold life would be boring indeed. Respect for all is the basis of the Golden Rule, "Do you unto others as you would have them do unto you". If you want respect, you must first respect yourself and others.
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


Top
#21831 - 05/28/07 07:05 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
AR, right on!!!!
May I suggest that, as we communicate with each other physically, mentally and spiritually, we can serve the common good by keeping three things in mind: empathy, empathy, empathy.

About empathy: entering fully, through imagination, into another's feelings or motives. For example, into the meaning of a work of art, etc. It comes from the Greek empatheia--in + pathos, feeling.

IMHO, empathy falls under the category of pneumatology, the mother of psychology. We need the integration of somatology, psychology and pneumatology.

About pneumatology. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneuma


GØD (IAM-THE) is the one in all that is;
The one with cosmos, earth, sky, sea;
GØD's one with time, the eternal now,
And all pervasive gravity.
One with faith and hope and love;
One with knowledge, wisdom, power;
Around, with, beneath above,
And present at this very hour.

Atheists, agnostics, if you do not feel comfortable with the word GØD, I have no objection to anyone saying IAM-THE.


Edited by Revlgking (05/28/07 07:06 PM)

Top
#21935 - 06/06/07 10:53 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
(This has no connection with the above)

May 31, 2007

"The highest court in Malaysia yesterday rejected a Muslim-born woman's appeal to be recognised as a Christian...The Malaysian constitution guarantees freedom of worship, but ethnic Malays must be Muslim by law. "She cannot simply, at her own whim, enter or leave her religion," Judge Ahmad Fairuz said during yesterday's ruling...Two-hundred Muslim protesters who gathered in a prayer vigil outside the court yesterday greeted the verdict with cries of "Allahu Akbar" (God is great)."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,2091812,00.html

No comment.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#21938 - 06/06/07 06:40 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Freedom of, and freedom from religion--an idea which I support, very much--is a relatively modern idea.

It probably grew out of Judaeo-Chriristianiity, but there was a time when all Christian nations were theocracies, not unlike many Muslim countries, today.

Theocrats look to God as the king of all. He appoints kings; kings appoints church and state leaders, and they rule the rest of us. Our duty it is to obey, pray and pay. smile
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion

In the west, it was probably the Protestant Reformation which started--note, I said, started--the move away from theocracy. Islam never experience a reformation. This may account for the fact that they find it difficult to think in terms of freedom of and from religion. This reformation may be happening, now. I hope it is.

As a strong believer in the concept that the highest good is love, I am of the opinion that religious leaders should never twist peoples arms and say: "Love God, or I will break your arm!"
Love cannot be commanded; it can only be earned.

BTW, it should be obvious that not all religions are born equal. It should also be obvious that if God were a theocratic and personal being he would leave no doubt about it.




Edited by Revlgking (06/06/07 07:36 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#21946 - 06/07/07 01:54 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia

"The highest court in Malaysia yesterday rejected a Muslim-born woman's appeal to be recognised as a Christian...The Malaysian constitution guarantees freedom of worship, but ethnic Malays must be Muslim by law. "She cannot simply, at her own whim, enter or leave her religion," Judge Ahmad Fairuz said during yesterday's ruling...Two-hundred Muslim protesters who gathered in a prayer vigil outside the court yesterday greeted the verdict with cries of "Allahu Akbar" (God is great)."

I do not know if there is actual Sharia Law in Malaysia but certainly the Muslim faith is the foundation for government. In countries where there is Sharia Law the judiciary is at one with the religious leaders. In Malaysia if you are not Muslim/Malay you are denied many privileges and your rights are not automatically protected. This can happen to non-Muslim foreign-born inhabitants of Malaysia and their Malaysian-born descendents. They do not have the same citizenship rights or health/education etc. rights even if born there. Maybe this judge was actually doing the woman a favour.

Top
#21950 - 06/07/07 02:35 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Yes, Ellis, Malaysia does have Sharia Law. She took her case to the civil court, and you're right, the judge was doing her a favour. Had it been the Sharia court, she would almost certainly have been punished for her 'crime' against Islam.

I have some idea about Malaysian law. I spent time there in the 1970's. "Bhumi putra" (son's of the soil), the native ethnic group that is 60% of the population, have privileges in all aspects of life - in education, business, housing and more. Take housing, for example. At the time when I visited the country, if a Muslim Malay wished to buy a new house, he would be required to make an initial down payment of 10%. For a non-Muslim, such as a Chinese-Malaysian, the figure was 25%. Furthermore, the law stated that 75% of all new housing estates must be reserved for bhumi-putra. in the same way, university places are reserved, irrespective of academic merit. There's one taxation system for ethnic Malays, and another for the rest.

This is the religious subjugation of politics, and religious suppression and discrimination against 40% of a nation's people - by divine right.

Doesn't religion do wonderful things for the world?

_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#21953 - 06/07/07 03:03 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Revlgking wrote:

"there was a time when all Christian nations were theocracies, not unlike many Muslim countries, today."

And not really that long ago. The US is beginning to give the appearance of returning there. Perhaps that's why the admin is so anti Islam. The bitterest fights are always between family members.


Top
#21961 - 06/07/07 01:54 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: redewenur
...Doesn't religion do wonderful things for the world?
Rede, I presume you are being sarcastic. Are you implying that all religion is sick? If so, what qualifies as religion? Do you include atheistic communism (The State Is God) as a religion? How much good did sick atheism plus communism do for the majority of Russians and the Chinese?

In my opinion, sarcastic generalizations are always wrong and unfair statements. For example: The white race is arrogant; the black race is lazy: atheism is the only way to truth. Is there anything fair and true about such statements? I don't think so.



Edited by Revlgking (06/07/07 01:59 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#21962 - 06/07/07 05:55 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Originally Posted By: redewenur
...Doesn't religion do wonderful things for the world?
Rede, I presume you are being sarcastic.

Yes, you are quite right, I used sarcasm as a device to highlight the contrast between the words and deeds of some of the worlds foulest hypocrites, and the attrocities perpetrated in the name of God. These people are fully deserving of rebuke, be it by way of sarcasm or otherwise - but in case you missed the point, let me rephrase it in a non-sarcastic form: -

Religion does terrible things to the world.

The 'generalizations' to which you refer are false stereotypes. "Religion does terrible things to the world" is neither generalization nor stereotyping - it's fact. Furthermore, in it's original (sarcastic form) it bears particular relevance to the post in which it appeared.

I have to say, I find your moralizing tone distasteful. I have thus far succeeded in steering a course around your posts, and trust that we'll have the foresight and wisdom to curtail our exchanges forthwith.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#21967 - 06/07/07 10:15 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Goodbye, Rede. In Old English, it was a short form for: "Good, or God, be with ye!" laugh

I wonder: How does positive atheism, which I respect, give one a blessing?

BTW, I abhor moralizing. I will gladly agree that the moderator remove any moralizing posts I have written.


Edited by Revlgking (06/07/07 10:18 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#21985 - 06/09/07 05:49 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Atheists do not presume to bless people. And further they do not need to.

Top
#21992 - 06/09/07 04:12 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
And I presume they never say 'goodbye', or 'adieu' (French, to God), or 'adeos' (Spanish, to God) etc.,... laugh BTW, what do they say?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#22002 - 06/10/07 12:23 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
Farewell.
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


Top
#22009 - 06/10/07 01:52 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Thanks for the blessing. smile

BTW, the Jews and other semitic people say "peace be with you" whether you're coming or going. The Hebrew is 'shalom'; the Arabic is 'salam'. Both words imply the peace of Eloh (the highest power), or Allah (the highest power). The Israeli airline uses the logo ElAl (Eloh, Allah).

As I have said before, the Greek translation is 'Theos', the highest idea--that is, the basic theory behind the power. The Anglo tranlatation, of course, is God--the highest good.

If I were an atheist I would have no problem believing in the one powerful and good idea in, through, around and behind all things, the material cosmos.

As a unitheist, or panentheist, I am not required to believe in an objective and/or personal god. However, I feel no need to vituperate against those of child-like faith who do. The important thing is: Does our theology, or lack of it, actually inspire us to bid each other, "farewell" and help us to act on that which we say. This is why John says, "God is Love". That is, the doing of good, not just talking about it.



Edited by Revlgking (06/10/07 01:53 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#22024 - 06/11/07 06:26 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
I say Goodbye of course. To me the word is just that -a word to say before parting, as yum-yum is a word to say before eating or good night before sleeping. Formalities, nice mannerly phrases which once meant the same thing to everyone , but now, thanks to semantic shift mean other things as well. There are many examples of this---most swear words, the words gay, nice, bloody, sophisticated---there are lots and lots of examples. A word, as Humpty Dumpty said means what you wish it to mean, and I do not ever intend to "bless" anyone or invoke the divine when I wish, for example, to say good bye, or call them a bloody nuisance.

Top
#22030 - 06/11/07 09:17 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Yes indeed. There is the story, said to be true, of a child asking his parent why the founder of a major western religion was named after a swearword.

Top
#22040 - 06/12/07 02:30 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Turner Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 16
It is highly commendable when atheists see the value of behaving morally, ethically and lovingly. After all, all the great prophets, including Jesus, called on people to be "doers of the word, not hearers only"... and "faith without wroks is dead and useless". (James 2). Hypocrisy is never commended as a good way life.

Okay, here is the bottom line, as I understand it: Is all phenomena limited to space, time and causality? Is the idea of the holy and spirituality nothing more than pious nonsense?

Top
#22043 - 06/12/07 04:43 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Turner]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Hiya Turner,
One could argue either way on that last question.

But as for the first question about "all phenomena." I'd say that "science" limits itself to only those phenomena of the material world ("space, time and causality").

Maybe that'd be more clear if written as:
I'd say that only "science" limits itself to those phenomena of the material world ("space, time and causality").

hmmmmm,
~SA
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
#22045 - 06/12/07 06:01 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: samwik]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Hi, Turner.

"Is all phenomena limited to space, time and causality?"

Pass.

"Is the idea of the holy and spirituality nothing more than pious nonsense?"

Opinion: No.
For us humans, the universe has dualistic reality. There's an experiential world about which science can say very little, except with regard to its correlation with observable phenomena. For example, to conduct an experiment about 'pain', science begins with the firm knowledge, based on common experience, that such a thing exists. Yet what can it tell us about pain? It can describe only observable phenomana that correlate with the experience. Should one then conclude that only the observable phenomena are real, and that the original experience that prompted the experiment never happened? There's an illogical incongruity there that resembles an Escher print. Consciousness, and all it's abstract phenomena are real, including holiness and spirituality, but they are not 'real' as defined by science. This is the dual nature of our reality.

Disclaimer: the above is not a dogmatic assertion fact grin

HORATIO
O day and night, but this is wondrous strange!

HAMLET
And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

...Not only is there science, there is also poetry...
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#22055 - 06/13/07 06:00 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Time to give Keats a go:

Beauty is truth and truth beauty. ( From Ode to a Grecian Urn)

Short, sweet and says it all really.

rede -That Hamlet quote is a favourite if mine too, and the sad Macbeth one;

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death.

Space , time, and causality (or lack of it!) there.


Top
#22056 - 06/13/07 06:37 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
A haiku:

Poetry of life,
In formless forms of beauty,
Elevates the heart.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#22075 - 06/14/07 02:19 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
rede-
that's lovely- I'm going to steal it to quote sometimes! Author?

Top
#22083 - 06/14/07 12:01 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Author? redewenur smile
Thanks, and you're welcome.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >



Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor
Facebook

We're on Facebook
Join Our Group

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.