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#18557 - 03/02/07 10:18 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
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THE CHOICE IS: WE CAN WALLOW IN OUR PROBLEMS, OR WE CAN SEEK SOLUTIONS. THE CHOICE IS OURS.

Okay, it is obvious that we have problems, here, all calling for solutions, but the question is: What can we do, and what are we planning to DO about them?

BTW, I agree, all of the above generalizations need to be aired, acknowledged and brought out into the light of day. We need to know and discuss who we feel did what, to whom and why they did it.

The name, shame and blame game leads to more and more suffering, pain and death. This is not the game which I wish to play.

Let us take it from there. Okay?


_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18558 - 03/02/07 10:51 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Keep in mind: I take a rational and scientific approach to all matters, including matters of philosophy and FAITH.

I abhor all dogmatic doctrines, including religious and scientific ones. Keep in mind: Interestingly, I have found that some atheists and agnostics can, often, be just as dogmatic and just closed-minded as fanatic believers.

Sad!!!! isn't it?

BTW, Carl Sagan's famous quote, about the cosmos, comes to mind: "The cosmos is all that is, or ever was, or ever will be."

If this is true, IMHO, G?D and the cosmos are one and the same.



Edited by Revlgking (03/03/07 03:45 AM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18565 - 03/03/07 04:05 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
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they are smarter, wiser, righter and gooder than everybody else

Do 'they' think that precisely because they are 'Christians' (Capital letter intended)?
I think 'they' do.

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#18566 - 03/03/07 04:08 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
Ellis Offline
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By the way Rev, I'm not an atheist any more (because you insist it is a belief and I refuse to accept that it is)--- Now I am a secular humanist. No idea what it means--but don't it sound good!!

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#18576 - 03/03/07 05:40 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Ellis, moral and ethical Secular humanists who treat their fellow human with kindness and respect are okay in my books. When someone asks me: Are you a Christian? I say, ask my neighbour, including all I encounter.

IMHO, the secular universe is within G?D in the same way that fish are within the water, birds are within the air and galaxies are within space.
If there is anything beyond space, that is G?D.

As I have said elsewhere: IMHO, physically speaking G?D is like gravity; mentally speaking G?D is like knowledge, information, and spiritually speaking G?D is Spirit, Love, the power in each of us to will that all things work together for good.

I can't imagine why anyone, with any kind of desire for making the best of life, would be against this. It is like being against breathing, healthy drinking, and eating, living.

BTW, I am with secular humanists who resent having dogmas, creeds, rituals and institutional rules shoved in their faces by organized religions--many members of which are diabolic agents of evil. Fortunately, there are also some church members who are just as good as good secular humanists. smile This is what keeps me involved.

I think of a good church as being like a good hospital; it is a place where the sick can get the help they need and become productive members of society.

I don't expect every church member to be a saint. But I like them to be making a sincere attempt. I believe in deeds, not just creeds. Creeds, are like good prescriptions; they only have value if they help us be healthy and do the good we need to do.

I LIKE WHAT IS HAPPENING AT THE FOLLOWING SITE:
http://www.goldenruleradical.org/





Edited by Revlgking (03/03/07 06:05 AM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18579 - 03/03/07 06:13 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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BTW, Ellis, and others, do you belong to any kind of fellowship, or group, which is involved in making the world a better place, for all of us?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18584 - 03/03/07 06:09 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
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Speaking f?r myself I bel?ng t? a gr?up that believes ?ne step t?ward curing many ?f humanity's pr?blems is shining a bright light ?n self-ann?inted, self-app?inted, emper?rs wearing n? cl?thes.
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#18592 - 03/04/07 05:45 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
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I can't wait to see the light! smile smile

I am reminded of the poetry of Genesis 1:3 : And God commanded, "Let there be light"--and light appeared. God was pleased with what he saw. Then he separated the light from the darkness.

As one who prefers the kind of light that is eternal, which rational faith in the Eternal provides, I like this last comment.


Edited by Revlgking (03/04/07 06:00 AM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18615 - 03/04/07 11:40 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Better for whom, Rev? The Iraq war is being waged with one aim stated as making things better for the Iraqi people. And a very old saying has some truth in it--The way to Hell is paved with good intentions.

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#18623 - 03/05/07 03:58 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Of course, I agree: intentions are only of real value if they are good and followed up with good actions.
_________________________
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#18776 - 03/09/07 03:11 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
MrBiGG78 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 30
Loc: Gatineau, QC
Understanding who we are spiritually??

As far as I know, there is no such thing as a spirit
We are merely the sum of all our physical constituents
Cousciousness is nothing more then the result of an elaborate biological computing process

Let me know when you have irrefutable proof that this isn't the case...


Edited by MrBiGG78 (03/09/07 03:26 PM)
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What was, still is, and always will be such is the truth of the eternal now.

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#18865 - 03/12/07 08:30 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: MrBiGG78]
Blacknad Offline
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Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Originally Posted By: MrBiGG78
Understanding who we are spiritually??

As far as I know, there is no such thing as a spirit
We are merely the sum of all our physical constituents
Cousciousness is nothing more then the result of an elaborate biological computing process

Let me know when you have irrefutable proof that this isn't the case...


Let me know when you have irrefutable proof that it is the case.

And also let me know what you would consider irrefutable proof that we have a spirit.

Blacknad.

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#18873 - 03/12/07 11:44 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Blacknad]
DA Morgan Offline
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Blacknad wrote:
"Let me know when you have irrefutable proof that it is the case."

Actually there is irrefutable proof if you are open to it. Lets review the evidence.

1. If I remove your source of oxygen you will lose consciousness and die in about 3 minutes.

2. If I remove your source of water you will lose consciousness and die in about 3 days.

3. If I remove your source of energy (food) you will lose consciousness and die in about 3 weeks.

All of these are explainable, and perfectly consistent, with known laws of chemistry and physics.

Assuming a spirit exists there is no known information, biblical or otherwise, that explains why depriving a spirit of oxygen, or water, or food, will cause it to depart in accordance with known laws of chemistry and physics.

Why should a spirit be affected by a fungal, bacterial, or viral infection? Why should a spirit respond, in a predictable manner, to chemical alteration of a protein or a nucleic acid? Again there is nothing in any holy book that supports what is easily explained by the known laws of chemistry and physics.

Want to dive deeper? I've got my scuba tank on. <g>
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DA Morgan

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#18890 - 03/13/07 04:20 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
OK, DA, get your snorkel <g>.

As I mentioned elsewhere, while we know that activity in particular areas of the brain is associated with particular experiences of the mind, science has not yet answered the question: "What is consciousness?".

No one disputes that deprivation of oxygen/water/food causes malfunction, decay and death of the brain. We conclude that, when we can no longer detect evidence of consciousness, no consciousness exists.

I have an open mind on this. To me it seems that there are two possibilities:

(1) Consciousness emerges solely and entirely from the activity of the brain.

- i.e., where, and only where, there is brain there can be consciousness

(2) Consciousness, is not solely and entirely dependent upon activities of the brain, and may exist independently of it.

- i.e. where there is brain there can be consciousness, but where there is consciousness, there is not necessarily brain (find proof in the U.S administration <g>)

I suspect that a radical breakthrough in physics will one day lead to an understanding of the real nature of consciousness.

Am I off-topic again? Sorry about that.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#18913 - 03/13/07 09:10 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
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Loc: Seattle, WA
This is SAGG. It is seemingly impossible to be off-topic. <g>

We can prove, magnetic imaging, etc. that consciousness emerges solely and entirely form the activity of the brain ... and even which specific areas and neurons are involved. That doesn't mean that we, as yet, understand it.

We understand how the heart works well enough to build them in the shop. But an individual heart cell will never understand how a heart functions. For us to understand what consciousness is may be one of the most formidable challenges there is.

Consider, if you will, the issue of free will. Is it possible to prove that it exists? My knee-jerk reaction is no.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#18934 - 03/14/07 05:25 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Well you certainly couldn't have free-will without consciousness could you? And you can only have free-will if you acknowedge that there is a 'right' and 'wrong' answer for every action. And I personally don't think that is so. I think free-will is a concept of Christian (and maybe other) faith to get God out of a tight spot when things go wrong. The answer is that if one were to follow God's path for us things would be good, but we didn't- so it isn't. It doesn't quite cover babies dying of awful diseases- but can be used to get God off the hook for such things as war. Then it's explained as an outbreak of the ungodly following their own path. OK it's bit simplistic, but that's my take on free-will.

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#18936 - 03/14/07 06:02 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
DA Morgan Offline
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Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Building on what you said Ellis here is what I think is an objective statement of fact.

If free will does not exist then you course of action is predetermined and you, as an individual, bear no responsibility for ever making a bad decision. Truth is you never actually made a decision.

Why study for the math test, why be a good parent, why not just do whatever ... if it happens it was preordained. Islam has traditionally had a real problem with this one.

Now move 180 degrees in the other direction. You are personally responsible for everything you do. You make every decision and bear every consequence. This is the point-of-view of the atheist.

The Christian is trapped somewhere in-between. He cannot be responsible for everything because god, Jesus Christ, angles, the devil, and numerous Saints all can intercede whenever they choose and change things. And, to use blacknad's writing as a crutch here, perhaps capriciously responding to a prayer or not based on rules we do not or can not understand.

So if the asteroid hits ... I say ... it hit due to the laws of physics in our universe and we are morons for not getting our act together and detecting and deflecting it and are responsible for the consequences of our lack of action.

The person who believes there is no free will says ... it was destined to happen and there was nothing we could have done about it ... or we would have.

I presume the true believer says ... well I prayed, I tried, I really did. Better luck next time. But at least those killed all went to heaven so they are in a far far better place.
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DA Morgan

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#18940 - 03/14/07 06:49 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Ellis
I think free-will is a concept of Christian (and maybe other) faith to get God out of a tight spot when things go wrong.

I'd say that it's the naturally intuitive view. As a very young kid, I had no ideas about religion, philosophy and causality. To me, if I tidied up my room it was because I chose to do so (or, more likely, my mum chose that I should do so!).

I get around the issue in a pragmatic way: it's expedient to make use of our apparent free will; it gives us a clear edge over anyone who would throw up their hands and not bother looking before they cross the road! At the same time, I have in the past taken the view that even my decision to adopt that approach is predetermined. Now that we know something about quantum events and the Uncertainty Principle, I'm not so...certain.

?To sum up, what I have been talking about, is whether the universe evolves in an arbitrary way, or whether it is deterministic. The classical view, put forward by Laplace, was that the future motion of particles was completely determined, if one knew their positions and speeds at one time. This view had to be modified, when Heisenberg put forward his Uncertainty Principle, which said that one could not know both the position, and the speed, accurately. However, it was still possible to predict one combination of position and speed. But even this limited predictability disappeared, when the effects of black holes were taken into account. The loss of particles and information down black holes meant that the particles that came out were random. One could calculate probabilities, but one could not make any definite predictions. Thus, the future of the universe is not completely determined by the laws of science, and its present state, as Laplace thought.?

S.W. Hawking
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#18941 - 03/14/07 04:40 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
redewenur Offline
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DA wrote: "We can prove, magnetic imaging, etc. that consciousness emerges solely and entirely form the activity of the brain ... and even which specific areas and neurons are involved."

I'll edit that to fit the alternative view:

We can prove, magnetic imaging, etc. that (evidence of) consciousness emerges solely and entirely from the activity of the brain ... and even which specific areas and neurons are (associated) with that evidence."

DA wrote: "Consider, if you will, the issue of free will. Is it possible to prove that it exists? My knee-jerk reaction is no."

The prevailing theories of physics in any given era may or may not offer support for free will, but my hunch is that you're guess is right - that it's not provable. Even so, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if our descendents discovered otherwise, especially if they do manage to fathom consciousness.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#18951 - 03/14/07 09:40 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
I heard an interview on radio with someone on the subject. Unfortunately I missed his name. His idea was that the decisions we make at any moment are almost totally determined by our genes and our upbringing. He hinted that ultimately therefore we don't really have free will. Of course our ideas change (or should do) as we age but even these changes may be a product of our genes and upbringing and so on.

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