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#18090 - 02/07/07 06:20 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
You truly don't get it. I've never once attacked you. I have attacked the fact that you behave in a manner antithetical to science.

I don't want you to leave. I want you to behave like an adult. So far you've done neither.

You walked into a science forum and spouted vague nonsense and self-serving parasitic trolls. It is as rude as if I walked into a church, went up to the microphone, and started lecturing on overloaded PL/SQL packages. You are off-topic, intentionally off-topic, and that is rude and reprehensible conduct. A conduct I presume you could change at will had you the desire and the mental horsepower. Seemingly one or both are lacking.
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#18098 - 02/07/07 06:01 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
MODERATORS, NB: READ MY FIRST POST IN THIS TOPIC: It is not just about knocking Revs and Religions; it is also about the other side of the coin--the looking for the good and positive values.
==================================
I understand that your first name is Dan. Unless you prefer otherwise, I will use it, okay? You can call me LGK or Lindsay, even Linds, for short.

Dan: Your last post is such a rant and filled with so many invidious, unfair argumentum ad hominems (AAH's) that I hardly know where to begin.

WHAT DID KATE SAY?
In view of this, I will simply ask: What was Kate's response to your ranting and railing--even before I got involved--and your demand that the thread be killed? (censored)

BTW 1, had she agreed with you, in your attempt to impose censorship here, you would have effectively gotten rid of me. Meanwhile, your personal attacks are preventing a lot of thin-skinned souls--unlike me--from getting involved.

For your information. over the years I took a lot of vitriolic crap from philistine-like, unscientific people, opposed to my critical, analytical and inclusive approach the study of the Bible and to ministry. None of their crap stuck.

At 77 I am still, in there, working on integrating, philosophy (including religious faith), the sciences and the arts.

It the light of your attempt to censor all threads having to do with the discussion of religion, it is obvious that your following statement: [quote"I don't want you to leave." is pure hypocrisy.

BTW 2, Religion and the Bible can be discussed, objectively--as Kate realises--without the need for evangelizing. Needless to say, I oppose dogma and evangelizing.

BTW 3, how come your name has 'moderator' written beneath it?




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#18100 - 02/07/07 09:14 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Dan, you do have a rather extreme hatred of religion. Did you have an unfortunate experience earlier in your life? I do have a problem with religion to the extent that they confused the f... out of me when I was a teenager. Always working on any fears they managed to manufacture, and I object to that approach. However that seems to have been a hundred years ago and I've got over it, but I presume they still pressure teenagers during that vulnerable and confused period.

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#18106 - 02/08/07 06:57 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Terry: Your question is a very important one. Thanks for asking it. I was fortunate in that I had a good experience. I was taught how to think--critically and analytically; not what to think.

Do you mind giving us a few details of your experience?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18467 - 02/27/07 11:10 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Just a reminder: Here is the place to park your personal attacks on revs and religions. I have a feeling that we are like anvils--that is anvils which have worn out many a hammer laugh
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18473 - 02/28/07 09:05 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Lindsay asked:

"Do you mind giving us a few details of your experience?"

It was a long time ago Rev. I vaguely remember feeling somehow guilty because I couldn't bring myself to believe Jesus had died for my sins, whatever that meant. The people trying to persuade me seemed so sure it was true. Why could I not stop myself from believing we had evolved from some sort of ape? Why could I not understand how God had controlled and guided this evolution right up until that time? Why could I not accept that this evolution had suddenly come to a stop and God was going to appear in the next few days and destroy all nonbelievers? Why could I not ignore my doubts and simply join their group? Why hasn't anyone else had these problems? Why am I asking so many questions? Why can't I stop? Am I going mad? On reflection please don't answer that.

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#18489 - 02/28/07 08:57 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
You are madly curious!!! laugh And that's okay by me.

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#18490 - 02/28/07 09:30 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
From Terry
Quote:
Why could I not stop myself from believing we had evolved from some sort of ape?...
Terry, I am sure you realize that this and the other questions which follow are what is commonly called "rhetorical questions". I assume that you already have an idea of what the answeris; you just haven't found the words to articulate it, yet.

BTW, as I understand the theory of evolution, it says that we evolved along with apes, not FROM them. If we evolved from them, there would be no apes today, right?

Interestingly, Charles Darwin's basic degree from Cambridge was not in botany; it was in theology.





Edited by Revlgking (02/28/07 09:32 PM)

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#18496 - 03/01/07 01:07 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Rev wrote:

"If we evolved from them, there would be no apes today, right?"

Wrong. The African and Asian apes (gibbon and orangutan) separated as much as ten million years ago, perhaps more, and we would have no trouble calling this creature an ape. Gorillas separated from the ancestor that gave rise to us and chimpanzees possibly seven million years ago. We would certainly regard this common ancestor as an ape. I'm sure that if you could see the animal we and chimpanzees separated from you would have to call it an ape. In other words we are apes. To alter your statement a little, "We evoved along with (chimpanzees) from an ape species of some kind."

You also wrote:

"I assume that you already have an idea of what the answeris; you just haven't found the words to articulate it, yet."


I now realise what the problem was. Humans go through this stage in adolescence where they need to belong to a group. The need developed because it has been evolutionarily an advantage. Unfortunately religions are organised to take in teenagers at this stage of their lives whereas atheists have not yet been organised enough to do so. Perhaps there are such organisations today?

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#18501 - 03/01/07 02:49 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
"BTW, as I understand the theory of evolution, it says that we evolved along with apes, not FROM them."
That much is correct, although I think there is ongoing discussion - due in part, I suspect, to the rather arbitrary point where you actually draw the line. I've heard some people say that we ARE apes. Check out wikipedia at : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape

They write: "The great ape family was previously referred to as Pongidae, and humans (and fossil hominids) were omitted from it, but there is no biological case for doing this."


"If we evolved from them, there would be no apes today, right?"
That is not correct. That is an extremely common misconception about evolution.




Edited by TheFallibleFiend (03/01/07 02:54 AM)

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#18504 - 03/01/07 03:57 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
They write: "The great ape family was previously referred to as Pongidae, and humans (and fossil hominids) were omitted from it, but there is no biological case for doing this."

Yes. Here's more of the same.

According to Wolfgang K?hler Primate Research Center,Leipzig Zoo,

?the members of the Pongidae (great apes) are:
Chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes)
bonobo (Pan paniscus)
gorillas (Gorilla gorilla)
orang utans (Pongo pygmaeus)
humans (homo sapiens sapiens)?

Our superfamily divided from that of the old world monkeys 23 m yrs ago. Our split with the chimp and gorrilla branch of Hominoidea occurred only 6 m yrs ago.

We are apes.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#18511 - 03/01/07 11:24 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
TFF: WE ARE OFF TOPIC, OF COURSE, but I feel we are evolved enough to handle it, right? smile

I also hope I am evolved enough to handle being corrected. While I am interested is all science theories, including evolution, I readily admit there are many things about which I am ignorant and I gladly defer to the experts.

BLESSED ARE THE TEACHABLE
In addition, I HOPE I am also teachable--the basic meaning of the word "meek", as found in The Beattitude (positive and happy attitude), "Blessed are the meek (the humble, lovingly teachable) for they shall inherit the earth (meaning the physical universe, not just our planet earth)."

As you noted, I wrote: "If we evolved from them, there would be no apes today, right?"

TFF, you responded: "That is not correct. That is an extremely common misconception about evolution."

Please tell me: What is proper conception of evolution?

Your correction adds to my understanding of evolution, which I have no problem accepting. It fits in with my concept of what G?D is all about. Unlike the "perfect" God I was told about as a child, G?D, in my meek and humble opinion, is the supreme example of meekness and, therefore, G?D (the total cosmos) is capable of evolving, ad infinitum.

Does your correction mean that you believe--or perhaps you know?--that a perhaps a certain group of apes became meeker, more teachable than others? Is this what gave them the ability to dominate?

If so, we need to ask: In what way? And, to what extent? Currently, are there groups of human beings meeker than others? What is the nature and function of meekness.

Interestingly, humility, meekness, the ability to be teachable are the opposite of being arrogantly proud. Also interesting: Pride is always on the top of any listing of the deadly human sins.

I AM REMINDED OF THE NINTH VERSE OF GRAY'S ELEGY

The boast of heraldry, the pomp of power,
And all that beauty, all that wealth e'er gave,
Awaits alike th' inevitable hour:-
The paths of glory lead but to the grave.



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#18512 - 03/01/07 11:54 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
FOR THOSE WHO ACCEPT THE CREATION MYTH AS A FACT
Consider the following quote from one of my friends, Rick, a brilliant scientist, in the brainmeta forum:
Quote:
Regarding the flood myth, if the entire world were flooded, salt water would submerge all the fresh water rivers and lakes, killing all the fresh water fish. Are we to suppose that Noah had installed aquaria on the ark for all fresh water fish pairs?

What about snails and crawfish? What about species that live only in North America? Did he have his sons discover the new world so they could rescue the fresh water fish there?

The true believers have a mind-boggling double-think task ahead of them.


_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18517 - 03/01/07 05:52 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
The case of apes and humans is just one example of a broader misunderstanding; namely that, "If Bs came from As, why are there still As?"

As many people before me have commented, this is analogous to arguing, "If I'm Irish American, how come there are still Irish around?"

There just isn't anything in evolution that says that these predecessors have to vanish. This is a completely contrived notion - a lie - perpetrated by creationists and based on a complete misunderstanding of how evolution works. I cannot explain it to you in sound bites.

Darwin himself was aware of this when he wrote OOS:
"It need not be supposed that all varieties or incipient species
necessarily attain the rank of species. They may whilst in this
incipient state become extinct, or they may endure as varieties for very long periods, as has been shown to be the case by Mr. Wollaston with the varieties of certain fossil land-shells in Madeira. If a variety were to flourish so as to exceed in numbers the parent species, it would then rank as the species, and the species as the variety; or it might come to supplant and exterminate the parent species; or both might co-exist, and both rank as independent species."

Note the phrase "or both might co-exist."


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#18520 - 03/01/07 07:57 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: terrytnewzealand
I now realise what the problem was. Humans go through this stage in adolescence where they need to belong to a group. The need developed because it has been evolutionarily an advantage. Unfortunately religions are organised to take in teenagers at this stage of their lives whereas atheists have not yet been organised enough to do so. Perhaps there are such organisations today?

When I was 15-16, I had an absolutely adorable English teacher who was a member of the British Humanist Association. She only mentioned it in passing once, but always wore the little badge on her lapel. I think she could easily have recruited a few hundred adolescents had she been inclined. Like other humanists, though, she evidently wasn't so inclined.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#18524 - 03/01/07 09:43 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Redewenur. As a friend of mine used to say, "This anarchy could work. We just need to get organised".

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#18534 - 03/02/07 04:38 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Revlgking]
Wolfman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Pago Pago, American Samoa
My KNOCK against religion is that it has kept us from realizing our intellectual potential. For, what, 500 years, we were in "The Dark Ages". A great time for the Church. A horrible time for Ordinary People. If not for the Dark Ages, we would today be reaping the benefits of 500 additional years of Scientific Research. Who knows where we would be had we not lost those 500 years?

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#18537 - 03/02/07 05:02 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Wolfman]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Wolfman, I have no problem with your comment. Have you read about the Protestant Reformation? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation
http://history.hanover.edu/early/prot.html
PRO--meaning for
testant--one who witnesses.
The 16th Century Protestants were Catholics who were for a new kind of faith--one which freed people to think for themselves. The Catholic monk, Copernicus, was helped by Protestaant Catholics to get his book, on the new astronomy, published.
Most modern liberal-thinking Roman Catholics appreciate that the Reformation took place.

_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18542 - 03/02/07 12:32 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Wolfman]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Wolfman
My KNOCK against religion is that it has kept us from realizing our intellectual potential. For, what, 500 years, we were in "The Dark Ages". A great time for the Church. A horrible time for Ordinary People. If not for the Dark Ages, we would today be reaping the benefits of 500 additional years of Scientific Research.

And now, 5 centuries into the future, the nation epitomizing modern civilisation is plagued by an anti-science movement that once again has its roots in religion.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#18556 - 03/02/07 08:50 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
It is worse than that redewenur.

As though the other military campaigns in Alexandria Egypt were not sufficient ... as Christians gained dominance in the region, they felt uncomfortable with pagan temples full of pagan documents. In 391 AD, Theophilus, the patriarch of Alexandria, urged a mob to destroy the temple at Serapis at the same time destroying whatever books were left in the greatest library on the planet. This was hailed as a great victory of the Christians over the pagans.

And it was if you are one who believes, as Christianity has over the centuries, that burning what you don't agree with is a good thing.

They've burned books, burned pagans, burned scientists, burned cities. 2000 years of burning intolerance. Ain't forgiveness a lovely thing.

In almost every major philosophical conflict I see in America it is the Christians versus the nation.

They support the war in Iraq against the heathens.
They want a war in Iran to kill a few more.
They want to control women's reproductive choices.
They want to control medical care and how it is delivered.
They want to control what I do in the bedroom.
They want to control when, where, and how I can die.

And why not ... they are smarter, wiser, righter and gooder than everybody else.

(and yes the grammar is intentional)
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DA Morgan

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