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A think tank partly funded by Exxon Mobil sent letters to scientists offering them up to $10,000 to critique findings in a major global warming study released Friday which found that global warming was real and likely caused by burning fossil fuels. For the full ugly story Click Here . One might note that this is one day after Exxon Mobil announced the largest corporate profits of any company ever in the history of the planet. Spread around a few million dollars and you can likely get 100 morons with degrees to sell their integrity. Enough to make news stories believable to professional gamblers and NASCAR lovers.


DA Morgan
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DA. Isn't that what they call free enterprise?

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Some call bank robbery free enterprise too.

Buying other people's integrity ain't free.


DA Morgan
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Originally Posted By: DA Morgan
Some call bank robbery free enterprise too.

Buying other people's integrity ain't free.


So DA Morgan, it seems you want to link bank robbery to Exxon. Do you have facts or is it more they make large profits?
When you say "some call bank robbery free enterprise too." Are you one of the some ?
If not, who are the "some". I am at a Science page.



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Hi factvsfiction,

I must agree with you, DA is wrong. Exxon's busuness practices should not be compared with bank robbery. In fact, a far closer and much more apt comparision would be strong arm robbery or, perhaps, highway robbery. Yes, highway robbery - it is after all - an oil company!

Dr. R.



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Yes, DA, that's an interesting article. The fact is that all companies with a vested interest in selling products that are thought to make a significant contribution to climate change will, in order to ensure their survival, either need to produce evidence that they don't, or start selling something that doesn't!


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Terry-Do you feel that because it is "free enterprise" this action does not have to be ethical ?, or do you intend it as the criticism that I took it for!

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Ellis. I suppose it's the criticism you took it for, but how can I be sure what you took it for? My argument would be that free enterprise in itself has no ethical dimension. We found that to be so here in NZ in the 1980s and '90s. And yet supporters of the free market insist the market will find it's own level. Bollocks. There needs to be some restraint on it but those who've benefited most are the least likely to support any restraints. How do we solve this problem?

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Originally Posted By: terrytnewzealand
...My argument would be that free enterprise in itself has no ethical dimension. We found that to be so here in NZ in the 1980s and '90s. And yet supporters of the free market insist the market will find it's own level. Bollocks. There needs to be some restraint on it but those who've benefited most are the least likely to support any restraints...

I quite agree, Terry. British PM Thatcher chose to leave our economy to the mercy of market forces, and let it 'find it's own level'. The rich and lordly became richer and lordlier, at the expense of everyone else, with whom she seemed to be totally out of touch.

How do you solve the problem? Maybe vote in a new government. Actually, Thatcher was ousted by her own party.


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The problem was solved once in 1776 and has been undermined ever since.

To quote the second President of the United States:

"What chance have Talents and Virtues in comparison with Wealth and Birth? and Beauty?"
~ John Adams to Thomas Jefferson; Sept. 2, 1813

As long as John Q. Sixpack continues to think Paris Hilton's antics are more important than good government and Anna Nicole Smith's death more important than that of an innocent Iraqi we are getting exactly what we deserve.

To quote "H. L. Mencken"
"Democracy is the theory that holds that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

Some of us are practicing how to duck.


DA Morgan
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So the majority here think that it is impossible to combine free enterprise and ethical standards---and we who have participated in the discussion all live in countries firmly committed to free enterprise, (well maybe NZ is a bit wobbly about it) ---a bit sad really.

The quote from Mencken is one of the most apt and cynical I can remember reading in a long time. Time to dig out the tin hat I think.

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It is not impossible to combine free enterprise and ethical standards.

The problem is, quite simply, that any time free enterprise is asked to adhere to ethical standards it threatens its workers with unemployment.

We want you to clean up your pollution.
That will cost money and force us to lay employees off.

We want you to provide your employees with safer working conditions.
That will cost money and force us to lay employees off.

We want you to stop using toxic chemicals.
That will give our competitors in other countries an advantage, we will lose business, and be forced to lay employees off.

It is total disingenuous nonsense but John Q. Public living from paycheck to paycheck almost always caves in out of fear.

If you want to control people all you need to do is scare them. George Bush did that to get his war and corporations do that all the time to get their way. Corporations will behave ethically when they are forced to do so by an uncowered citizenry.


DA Morgan
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Yes, that probably says it all. Ethics are always likely to be compromised where wealth is at stake, free enterprise or not - part of being human, I suppose.


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Any form of government or philosophy that does not accept human nature as its basis is doomed to failure.

If you don't believe me ... list the number of cities on this planet in which drugs and prostitution are illegal and also do not exist.

Note even laws that guarantee a death sentence can control neither. And most countries, and most religions, continue to demand that which is not just improbable ... but impossible. As Einstein said:

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

Same holds true for allowing and controlling monied interests. As long as we allow corporations and the rich to have a disproportionate voice in our affairs ... we should not be surprised when they take control. They always have and they always will so long as we sit idly by and allow it.


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Of course it's possible to do better with regard to ethical behaviour both in Govt and politics. NZ realised it was on the wrong track for example and Finland a small country with an 58% tax-rate (on average) manages to run an economy that is not over burdened with debt, in fact it is in surplus. It also has the highest standard of literacy and numeracy in the world, universal free schooling and health care, comprehensive welfare cover and its citizens recently polled as some of the most happy and contented on the planet. This is all, we are told, impossible. Our economic theorists insist that low taxation and low government spending is the way to prosperity and lets free market pick up the oportunities to create wealth and jobs. Thus the good things "trickle down" to the workers who are individually resonsible for their own welfare.

And it's not working very well at all. So how do we dis-allow it DA?

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DA wrote;

"It is not impossible to combine free enterprise and ethical standards."

But the examples you give all involve some sort of government intervention. The purists would quickly point out this is no longer free enterprise. I agree 100% with you that the wealthy (read Gorse Bush and associates) use what John Ralston Saul calls "the technique of fear" to manipulate the population.

We seem to all agree that combining ethics and economics is difficult. Education is the ready answer but what does that actually mean and how do we implement it?

Ellis points out the NZ government has backtracked on some of the changes introduced in the 80s and 90s but the main opposition party is straining at the leash to get back in next election. They look likely to succeed because their propaganda appeals to peoples' selfishness. I'd be very happy if we on this site can think of some way to prevent it.

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Free enterprise without government intervention is an oligarchy. None has ever existed, or nearly existed, without the common people rising up with weapons and overthrowing it.

There is another word I would use to describe it: Kleptocracy.

As Lord Acton said:
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

The common people rarely act in their own self-interest until things become unbearable. And this is true for a number of reasons mostly biological.

1. We are a species that crawled out of the cave by following alpha males. Made sense when we were potentially leopard food. Times have changed but we still want to follow a "lord" whether it is "lord Jesus Christ" or "Lord Bush" or "Lord Exxon." We kneel to those with authority ... even when wholly undeserved.

2. We are all basically self-interested. If we have a job ... the heck with the next guy or gal. Let them fend for themselves. I've got food so why should I care about some dolt who chooses to live in Botswana? I've got retirement so why should I care about the moron who believed their employer when they offered up a retirement plan that was never fully funded.

3. We are easily led by fear. To quote Hermann Goering, Nazi leader, at the Nuremberg Trials after World War II:

"Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."

Such things are only a surprise to those who don't study history.


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Hi DA,

You said: "Such things are only a surprise to those who don't study history."

Alas, this is all too true.

Dr. R.

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DA. I agree with your comments totally. But they don't really help us in our quest to change the situation.

This won't help either, but it shows the kleptocracy continues. From a news release on Yahoo today:

"Today, we're fighting a new war to defend our liberty and our people and our way of life," said Bush,

Can any of you tell me what percentage of US citizens actually accept that? I note the President no longer claims to be fighting for the Iraqi peoples' freedom and democracy. Not that he ever was. It was always just a cover. By the way, why isn't there more song and dance in US about the reasons for the war rather than just bickering over how to end it? Is it simply that both major parties are just part of the kleptocracy?

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Please bear with me on this! I am not an expert on Finnish politics but the underlying wealth of Finland lies with the huge company-Nokia- coupled with the high rate of Government taxation. It is working! It shouldn't!

Maybe the Finns aren't all so self-interested DA, and the Welfare state that has resulted is so supportive that people are contented- or perhaps our own economies have never been able to explore properly the possibility of governmental control existing alongside free enterprise in a true partnership.

terry- Sorry to hear the Rogernomics may rise again.

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TNZ asks:
"Can any of you tell me what percentage of US citizens actually accept that?" with respect to George Bush's latest scaremongering.

The answer is ... it depends on geography.

Those in urban areas, population greater than 100,000 do not. Also the more educated and less, not religious but not fundamentalist, the less likely they are to buy what they are being sold.

Get someone in a rural area that belongs to a fundamentalist church and they are highly likely to be drinking the Koolaid.

Which should be no surprise in that the more educated a person is the more likely they are to have a brain and make their own decisions. And the less likely they are to follow one alpha male the less likely they are to follow another.

In the part of the US where I live ... I think you might find a substantial percentage of the population willing to deliver Bush and Cheney to the Hague as war criminals for prosecution. I'd personally buy the plane ticket to get them there.


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Well that's good to hear Dan. There might be hope after all. I actually think Mr. Cheney is a much more dangerous chappy that Mr. Gorse Bush (gorse is a terrible weed in NZ). However I'd like your thoughts on the other question I asked:

"Why isn't there more song and dance in US about the reasons for the war rather than just bickering over how to end it? Is it simply that both major parties are just part of the kleptocracy?"

Got any ideas?

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Couldn't agree more. The joke for years has been that Cheney is Bush's insurance policy.

The reason why you are seeing the games around the war here is that those most likely to end it must face two political realities. The first is that the American public will only put them into office if they appear tough ... alpha-male like.

Here's an interesting study in human behavior. All of those currently in power and making war-and-peace decisions have NEVER served in the military and NEVER been in combat.

Many of those most strongly opposed to the war are those who have served, have REAL combat experience, and know of what they speak.

Note with how much zeal the chicken-hawks tore into Senator Kerry who is a decorated combat veteran. Note how they treat Congressman Murtha and Senator Hagel. It is not all that different from watching some here at SAGG argue that professional climatologists don't understand climatology as well as they do. Those who are weakest ... often scream the loudest trying to imitate the alpha of old (picture a male gorilla pounding his chest).

So to become President, aka Commander-in-Chief of the military one must, in a sense, be dishonest.

The second issue is partially that we have become a kleptocracy but also the reality that it is a lot easier to start a fight than it is to end one.

I can't think of anyone I know with an IQ over room temperature that doesn't thinks going into Iraq in the first place was a bad idea created by a climate of lying to the public and the world.

At the same time I can't think of anyone that doesn't believe that when we leave, no matter when or how, there won't be a blood bath, abuse of women's rights, and horrors reminiscent of Darfur or Stalin's purges.

So comments among those wanting to exit often are one of these:
* We never should have gotten in and created this mess but we will only make it worse by staying one day longer.

* We never should have gotten in and created this mess but we owe to those we've hurt to try to make it better before we leave.

* We never should have gotten in and created this mess but the mess was created by bad execution and bad policy and good execution and good policy will make things right.

In my opinion ... it just isn't that simple.

We made a huge mess and it will take multiple generations of good policies and good behavior to fix it. Something America is very poor at: Patience.

I think what we should do is publicly apologize for what we did in Iraq, publicly apologize for what we did overthrowing Mohammed Mosadek (back in the 50s), publicly apologize for interfering in other country's affairs.

And then realistically take stock of what it took for Europe to overcome its idiotic behaviors (WWI and WWII) and the fact that little short of a similar trauma is going to solve the problems in the Moslem world.

Last edited by DA Morgan; 02/21/07 06:06 PM.

DA Morgan
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Ellis wrote:

"Terry- Sorry to hear the Rogernomics may rise again."

The one thing that might save us is our electoral system. Any party almost certainly must get the support of at least one other party in order to govern.

Dan, I think you have summed the situation up fairly well. However a big step towards peace in the Middle East (if any US administration is genuine about wanting it) would be to cut off aid to Israel unless it makes some attempt to treat the Palestinians as human beings.

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Cutting off aid to Israel would be more likely to produce bad than good. Don't forget that Israel, if it felt threatened, has the means and likely the will to turn the middle east into a glowing cinder. Some portion of that money is maintaining leverage over one of the largest nuclear arsenals on the planet.

It isn't about Israel as much as I sympathize with your point-of-view. Rather simply it is the fact that both groups, Israelis and Palestinians, hate each other more than they love their children.

Expecting the tribal societies of the Middle East to grow up and behave like nation states is nothing but wishful thinking. As much as I've much I dislike about how the tribal societies of the Americas were tamed, or the way the Europeans did it to themselves ... the sad truth is that not a single entity in that region, save it would seem Iran, has learned the lessons of history. And I'm no fan of the wacko's running Iran.


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DA. I think I trust Amedinejad (can't remember the spelling) more than I trust Bush.

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Your trust, if that is what it is is misplaced.

They are two different sides of the same coin.

Self-righteous alpha males without a single care about making the lives of their people better.

They are equals.

Neither any better or worse than the other. One has his finger on the button ... the other wants to. Either one, given the opportunity, willing to watch others suffer and die for their amusement.

Each, within his own country, a dismal failure.
Each, pounding his chest, demanding respect.
Take a closer look.


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Dan wrote:

"They are two different sides of the same coin."

Exactly. Both religious maniacs. But Ahmedinejad probably has less support within his country than does Bush. And, as you say, "One has his finger on the button ..." The other one doesn't. Iran is at least five years away from having nuclear weapons and even then they would be pretty poor ones. Besides which Iran is unlikely to involve NZ in any global ambitions whereas the US is quite keen. I tried (briefly) to find Cheney's speech in Oz yesterday. It's an interesting excercise to sustitute "the USA" where he uses "terrorists". Makes much more sense then.

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TNZ wrote:
"But Ahmedinejad probably has less support within his country than does Bush"

Given no one is conducting a poll in Iran anytime soon it is impossible to say. But essentially what you are saying is not that you trust him more but the Iranian people more. I might agree if I knew more.

The assumption that Iran is 5 years away is political nonsense. No one knows for sure. Not even the Iranians themselves. One shipment from North Korea and the Russian mob and they might be building one next week.

It is highly unlikely anyone will involve NZ in anything ... why do you think I have a 50ft sailboat. Have the guest room ready if things start to heat up. <g>


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Dan. You nearly had me convinced that your statement "The assumption that Iran is 5 years away is political nonsense" was true. However I just saw the headline in a sunday paper: "Iran is truly a problem says Cheney" or something to that effect. Now, we can asssume that Cheney is lying even when he says he is lying. Therefore we know this headline is not the truth. Once again we merely have the US kleptocracy using the tactics used for Iraq, WMD and links with terroroism, ie. the target is Iranian oil.

But, once again, we have US citizens being sucked in.

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I nearly forgot. You wrote:

"But essentially what you are saying is not that you trust him more but the Iranian people more. I might agree if I knew more."

Many times throughout history and prehistory there have been expansions of culture from the Iranian plateau. Almost always they have produced improvements in the human condition. The Kassites, the Medes and Persians. Most of the best of Islamic culture is actually Persian. Iranian culture had a huge influence on Jewish ideas. The whole idea that there is a battle between good and evil is Zoroastrian. It remains to be seen if there will be another cultural expansion from Iran. I certainly am not in a hurry to condemn Iranian ideas.

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How do you know Cheney is lying? His lips are moving.

I wish it were a joke.


DA Morgan
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The Iranian people even got it right with a decent democracy back in the 1950's.

Unfortunately that government actually believed the US wants to spread democracy ... and the CIA took them out in very short order.

The American people would have been outraged had they known. But they were then, as they are now, 'amusing themselves to death'.


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I think the biggest problem is this rubbish about not talking to Iran or Syria. If US admin was serious about anything they say on the subject surely this is the most obvious route to success. Of course this would defeat their whole purpose.

The US admin is certainly expert at manufacturing confusion. But I doubt that they are confused about what they want to achieve. However they may be crackpots. I'm afraid it's over to you US citizens to point this out to voters.

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Assuming you believe any of this bunk. And I/we 've been lied to so many times it is hard to believe anything said by anyone I can understand not talking without some preconditions as one side would have a reasonable expectation of benefiting by delay: Witness North Korea for the example d'jour.

Quite simply there is only one solution: International inspectors. A refusal to allow them in is a prima facia admission of doing something wrong. A failure by all nations to insist on inspection of all nations is the hypocrisy that manufactures this insanity.

I've little doubt Bush wants a war. I've little doubt the Iranian leadership is equally as stubborn, moronic, and idiotic and will cooperate with him fully. History is full of examples of this: Very few of sanity.

The last time I saw evidence of sanity was Kennedy and Khrushchev. None of the world's current leaders have demonstrated the ability to behave with equal intelligence.


DA Morgan
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I see the US admin has been reading SAGG. They have decided to talk to Iran and Syria regarding Iraq.

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On the possibility that they do read SAGG and follow advice:

George ... Dick ... resign: Now!

Turn yourselves over to the International Criminal Court in The Hague for trail as criminals.

I really do sincerely hope you are correct TNZ.


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The thing that makes me grit my teeth most is the "stay til the job is done" thing. It's NOT a job . It started as an invasion, and now it's a horrible fiasco. It is our doing and quite frankly the best thing we could do for the Iraqis is get out and go home and let them get on with patching their lives up. The idea that now we will be of any help is arrogant trash. We should get out, give them back control of their country, and their oil , and pour in aid to the value of the damage we have caused with our bombs.

This could happen under the supervision of NEUTRAL International Inspectors.

How could anyone who started this mess ever think that their reputation would go down in history as far-sighted and noble. History will not be kind to this episode.

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Originally Posted By: Ellis
...and pour in aid to the value of the damage we have caused with our bombs

...and the "Spent and Approved War Spending" is over $500 billion.
For what? How can educated, worldly leaders of nations be so naive?

Iraq War Results & Statistics as of Feb 11, 2006
From Deborah White,
http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/IraqNumbers.htm

"Spent & Approved War-Spending - $505 billion of US taxpayers' funds. President Bush is expected to request another $100 billion in war-spending for 2007 and $140 billion for 2008, which would bring the cumulative total to over $700 billion."


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re. the above,
for: Iraq War Results & Statistics as of Feb 11, 2006
read: Iraq War Results & Statistics as of Feb 11, *2007*


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Someone in the US admin is really clever. They got US taxpayers to fund the US army to go in and wreck Iraq using materials supplied by companies owned by members of said admin. Then they get the US taxpayers to fund yet more companies owned by members of the admin to go in and fix it up. A good example of the flood up economic effect as opposed to the trickle down one the propaganda usually promotes. reminds me of Milo Mindbender in "Catch 22".

Ellis wrote:

"This could happen under the supervision of NEUTRAL International Inspectors."

How the hell do we find them? Perhaps a Muslim force supplied by countries other than immediate neighbors. This would mean Indonesia and Nigeria would provide most troops. But the countries that wrecked Iraq should surely bear the cost of repair. Nice little money-earner for Indonesia and Nigeria and other Muslim countries.

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redewenur asks:
"How can educated, worldly leaders of nations be so naive?"

Educated? Certainly you are not referring to my President. The man that said all of the following:

"at some point we may be the only ones left. That's OK with me. We are America."

"If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure."

"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child."

"Mars is essentially in the same orbit...Mars is somewhat the
same distance from the Sun, which is very important. We have
seen pictures where there are canals, we believe, and water.
If there is water, that means there is oxygen. If oxygen, that means we can breathe."
...Governor George W. Bush, Jr., 8/11/94

"I have made good judgments in the past. I have made good judgments in the future."
...Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"I stand by all the misstatements that I've made."
...Governor George W. Bush, Jr. to Sam Donaldson, 8/17/93

"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it."


Well that and the moronic imbecility of our leader(s).


DA Morgan
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DA. I think you are forgetting that your leader is an illusion. He is a hologram. Watch out for the real leaders, the ones maintaining the hologram.

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Tweedledee, Tweedledum, and Tweedledumber.

This guy couldn't hit the ground if he fell off a ladder.


DA Morgan
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Ha! Hilarious! Incredible, but believable, if you know what I mean. If you found those quotes in a book, I'd enjoy reading it - could be a good partner for my copy of 'Fahrenheit 9/11'.

I hope the electorate has learned its lesson well. To vote for a candidate whose campaign attire included a bomber-jacket was inviting this kind of trouble. Appearances are not always deceptive. Here's wishing you (and the rest of the world) a better next U.S. president; and one who can distinguish science from mythology.


"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler
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I keep quotes from American politicians for my amusement.

Here are a few other geniuses we have put into office:

"If you take out the killings, Washington actually has a very
very low crime rate."
~ former mayor Marion Barry, Washington DC

"I was recently on a tour of Latin America, and the only regret I have was that I didn't study Latin harder in school so I could converse with those people."
~ former Vice President J. Danforth Quayle


Wait until next year ... the electorate has learned much ... they've learned Brittany Spears doesn't alway wear her panties and who won the Super Bowl. No doubt that will help them make better decisions.


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$700 million could do a lot of fixing up!

I am in awe---did Quayle really say that? How do they find them? Did he go to Harvard or Yale too? smile

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Redewenur wrote:

"Here's wishing you (and the rest of the world) a better next U.S. president; and one who can distinguish science from mythology."

I second that.

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Here are a few more of wish we American's are justifiably proud:

http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Dan_Quayle/
http://www.realchange.org/quayle.htm

You can find his bio, such as it is, at Wikipedia.

Here's wishing the next US President isn't an embarrassment and a kleptocratic moron.


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I've just read an interesting take on the US admin finally talking to Iran and Syria. The US will ensure the talks fail, blame the appropriate countries, invade Iran and take over the oil anyway. Watch this space.

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Originally Posted By: Ellis
$700 million could do a lot of fixing up!

That's 'billion' of course. Just your typo, I know.


"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler
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TNZ wrote:
"The US will ensure the talks fail, blame the appropriate countries, invade Iran and take over the oil anyway."

I've no doubt Bush and Cheney would like to.

I am beginning to have doubts as to whether the military would do so. There are reasons to believe that the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff may have sabotaged the claim that Iran was sending in weapons.

I am no in favor of an insubordinate military. But then I'm not in favor of a personal kleptocracy either.


DA Morgan
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Thanks Rede---You know, I think I thought it was millions--- billions is OBSCENE!!!

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$1.00 is obscene. The only difference is the grossness of the obscenity.


DA Morgan
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