Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Climate Change Forum Hey! Just a question about this stuff....

Alright so I'm just a High school student who is always been told "HUMANS ARE KILLING THE EARTH!!! ROAR!!!!! STOP USING YOUR CARRRRR!!!!", and I must say that it is irritating when they say these things but never tell me exactly why this is happening.

I mean, yeah we know about the greenhouse effect and such but really....it all seems out of place. Last semester, we were told to do some research on the Global warming theory. So I wanted a good grade and tried my hardest to do some good research.

Halfway through the paper I realized I thought that "Global Warming" could be being caused by something much more Earth related than human related. Wouldn't the decreasing strength in the Earth's Magnetic field cause the suns damaging (and by-golly they are HOT!) rays to easily get to the Earth, thus INCREASING THE TEMPERATURE?????

I don't know much, because heck, I'm in 11th grade. But I can't help but wonder if it?s the gases humans give off or if it?s the magnetic field that is causing this heat wave.

Let?s get some scientists opinions. What do you guys think?
Would the magnetic field?s natural decrease in strength be a good theory for this world wide heat wave?


~~~~~Ash, email me at 33poop33@earthlink.net It sounds like a stupid email? Hey, kill me...I'm in 11th grade.

Nothing happens in the universe that is not governed by the laws of physics and chemistry: Nothing.

And quite simply that means that if we, humans, introduce something into the environment it will affect the balance of physics and chemistry in some manner. Perhaps subtle, perhaps catastrophic, and perhaps just enough to tilt the balance of a carefully balanced ecosystem.

Given that you are a high school student and I am almost 60 and teach at a university let me give you a bit of advice: Take this seriously. Because after I am dead you will have somewhere around 45 years to regret the mess my generation irresponsibly made of the planet you are about to inherit.

Take seriously the affect of climate change on weather.
Take seriously the affect of warming oceans on seafood
Take seriously the affect of warming climates on diseases.
Take seriously the affect of toxins on species.
Take seriously the lack of water for crops and livestock and humans.

Better get used to the fact that my generation, and your parents generation, have been irresponsible stewards of this little ball pebble we call earth. It is small, it is irreplaceable during your lifetime at least. And yes cars, power plants, and many other things we have done have been a Faustian bargain creating a lifestyle that is unsupportable without leaving the rest of the planet in poverty. And the rest of the planet's inhabitants don't like that any more. So your lifestyle is going to change and the things you assume about your future are going to change.

And not one for the better if you don't become part of the solution.

There's not a darned thing you can do about the earth's magnetic field. But there is something you can do about global warming and toxic pollution. It is your planet. Act like it. Because some day you are going to be my age and you are going to remember what I wrote.

"Given that you are a high school student and I am almost 60 and teach at a university let me give you a bit of advice: Take this seriously. Because after I am dead you will have somewhere around 45 years to regret the mess my generation irresponsibly made of the planet you are about to inherit."

DA-This sums up so well how I feel! We certainly had fun didn't we!.. but we knew even then that there would be a price to pay. I reread The Silent Spring and the Doomsday Book (both pub: in the 70s) last year (way before I even knew about An Inconvenient Truth) and it seems so horribly prescient now. You see Ash, we are responsible for our behaviour which is ruining the environment of our planet to such an extent that it will force us to make enormous changes to the way we live. Meanwhile magnetic waves, droughts, weather events etc will still occur and would maybe have done so anyway. But now we are also exacerbating these things, and their effect is even more disastrous than it might have been. The certainty is that we are not there yet, things will change and we can try and make it less catastrophic or just push on denying the truth and fail to deal with the consequences.

Ellis wrote:

"The certainty is that we are not there yet, things will change and we can try and make it less catastrophic or just push on denying the truth and fail to deal with the consequences."

We will not have any option but to deal with the consequences. It may not be pleasant of course.

There is, I hope, a difference between attempting to deal with the consequences and suffering the consequences.

However I feel we may well do both.

Ellis wrote:

"However I feel we may well do both."

How true, how true.

You are both optimists. ;-)

I see in my country no will to do either.

I suppose economic power will delay the USA's having to deal with the consequences. But ultimately even it it will have to face them. Mind you a consequence may be that the population goes extinct.

Look at what happened when the predicted and inevitable happened in New Orleans. They wasted billions, did a lousy job both for the people and the city. And it is 100% predictable it will happen yet again.

<SARCASM>
But then of what value of the lives of people whose skin is darker than ours?
</SARCASM>

Thanks for the reviews guys.

Yeah, it really does show that I'm young and don't really understand what has happened in the past or what's happening right now.

DA--Oh believe me, I take this seriously and realize now that we (my generation) WILL have to pay for whatever is causing this. I just wondered if it had anything to do with the Magnetic Field.

Other than my petty theory, what can we really do about it? Is there really ANYTHING my generation can do to undo the damage done?

Only if human stupidity and selfishness and shortsightedness can be blamed on the earth's magnetic field.

Stop looking for excuses.

You country is to blame.
Your city is to blame.
Your family is to blame.
Your parents are to blame.
I am to blame too.

Stop looking for an excuse ... start doing something about the mess you are about to inherit.

Ash. My advice would be for you to join a local conservation group. You will then have a chance to become active, at least locally, and you are always more effective as part of a group. Individually you may not achieve much but the more people doing something the more will be achieved. As they say, "think global, act local."

Good idea, but also making personal change helps to not feel so doomed! Walk or cycle to nearby places, open a window instead of turning on airconditioning, put on a jumper instead of the heater! All small things but they are symtoms of how unthinkingly we overconsume energy.

Maybe Ash, it will be your generation that decides to be content with the idea that quality in their lives and not quantitiy of possessions is the most important aim.Hopefully by the time you are ready to build a house it will have to have recycled water and solar heating panels. Maybe you will use a non polluting car and, most important of all, you will have solved the problem of how to deal with the millions in the newly affluent Asian nations who want to live at least at the standard level that you and I do now.

Really we know what else we should be doing too, but we lack the will to achieve it- maybe your lot will be more involved...and I hope it won't be because you have to be.

Hi Ash,
I can see that you have a very sharp mind. I think you?re on the right track. The weakening magnetic field can explain most of today's problems...climate change, plate tectonics, rising sea levels, soaring cancer rates, stronger geomagnetic storms, Bermuda Triangle phenomena...the list goes on. I have been researching this for a couple of years now, and it does seem to have merit.

Keep up the good work, and think for yourself.
:-)

James Lovelock has a lot to say about the effects of human activities on the environment, and particularly climate. Has anyone read his book 'The Revenge of Gaia: Why Earth is fighting back'? If so, would you recommend it to people like Ash - or me for that matter?

There are aspects I would recommend and a few that make me shudder. But, in combination with other sources, I'd say it is worth the read.

Read the reviews:
http://www.amazon.com/Revenge-Gaia-Earth...TF8&s=books

Very bleak stuff, but also quite convincing to a convert like me but then i find the whole idea of Gaia very compelling.

I also found "The Weather Makers" by Tim Flannery brilliant and not to hard to read for a non-scientist. There is also a version for school students available. Tim Flannery was Australian of the Year last year and he is a conservationist of note here. So imagine everyone's amazement and/or consternation when he came out in (qualified) favour of nuclear power. There is none at all in Australia yet, the only small reactor produces a small number of medical radio-active items. The ensuing debate continues though.

Very bleak stuff, but also quite convincing to a convert like me but then i find the whole idea of Gaia very compelling.

I also found "The Weather Makers" by Tim Flannery brilliant and not to hard to read for a non-scientist. There is also a version for school students available. Tim Flannery was Australian of the Year last year and he is a conservationist of note here. So imagine everyone's amazement and/or consternation when he came out in (qualified) favour of nuclear power. There is none at all in Australia yet, the only small reactor produces a small number of medical radio-active items. The ensuing debate continues though.

Double post again--- it told me the system was down sorry!!

The system has a few rather significant bugs.

I should think many others also find the Gaia hypothesis compelling. I certainly do. Looking at how evolution works and how ecological systems work, it doesn't take a leap of the imagination to picture the entire biosphere functioning as a single living entity with a miriad components, all interdependent; but I suppose there's enough discussion space in the topic to support another forum!

Ellis. Tim Flannery deserves to be widely read. His books "The Eternal Frontier" (basically a history of the USA from the end of the Cretaceous until today) and "The Future Eaters" (about the first immigrants to Australia and New Zealand) are classic analyses.

Regarding Gaia. I read it many years ago and spent some time wondering where humans might fit into the system. Eventually an idea came to me on the way to visit my brother. His job involved crushing the limestone laid down in the middle of the Tertiary so it could be spread round the impoverished soils of Northland. Perhaps we evolved to redistribute materials previously taken out of circulation.

Clearly, humans haven't been fitting into the system well enough, and are in the process of being given the elbow. We have to (a) modify our activities to meet the requirements of the system, i.e. Gaia, and (b) modify the system so that it's better able to accommodate us. Failing that, we are history - or at least we would be, if anyone were left to read it.

It's not climate change alone, of course. It's also resources. We're already past 6.5 billion; twice the figure my geography teacher once gave me. If we, each of us, don't radically change our way of life and expectations, Gaia will operate to preserve herself in some other way. That's the theory, is it not?

Oh, I see very clearly how "we humans" fit into the Gaia Model. Assuming the analogy that Earth is a Living Being, then humanity is a virus. The larger entity will do what it must in order to survive.

I think Wolfman's analogy rather accurate.

Bacteria and molds are at least capable of constraining their reproduction.

Redewenur wrote:

"Clearly, humans haven't been fitting into the system well enough, and are in the process of being given the elbow."

Now, Rede, that is obviously not true. We may be fitting in too well. That's why there are so many of us.

Wolfman. Not all viruses are a problem.

Dan wrote:

"Bacteria and molds are at least capable of constraining their reproduction."

Don't give bacteria too much credit. The numbers of any species is controlled by selection. There is actually a great deal of evidence that many times human populations have expanded beyond the capability of local resources to support them and they have gone extinct locally. It's not spoken about very often because the implications are unpleasant. See Flannery's books and Jared Diamond's recent effort.

The huge advantage we have over bacteria is that we can become aware of the problem, and it seems most of us on this thread are. As Rede says we have two options:

(a) modify our activities to meet the requirements of the system, i.e. Gaia, and (b) modify the system so that it's better able to accommodate us.

I don't think we can do option (b). This leaves us with option (a).

We can ... of that I will agree.

Unfortunately history also teaches us that we won't.

Witness the examples you cite of numerous civilizations becoming extinct.

Yes, Terry, I agree, that's a reasonable alternative view; but we have severely abused the system. In that sense we can be seen as dangerous misfits. We must, as they say, shape-up or ship-out.

Has anyone here adjusted their daily life accordingly? That's not a rhetorical question. Making changes can be problematic.

Good question Redewenur. One problem with the way things are currently defined is that everyone can say yes. Why just the other day I changed a lightbulb from 100W to 60W. Or just last week I turned off a light bulb when I walked out of the room.

We need a measurable metric and we have none. When it is up to every individual to make their own choice everyone chooses to let the other guy do it or can feel really good about doing something totally inconsequential.

I, for example, haven't eaten swordfish for about 5 years even though I thoroughly enjoy it. Is it helping recovery of a resource heading toward extinction? Again ... who can say? But is just another example of making a personal sacrifice that is likely meaningless in isolation.

Without government imposed guidelines, such as those in Australia about lightbulbs, we are doomed by our nature.

Yes, right, human nature, human society...and governments that are naturally very reluctant to get to grips with it. For them to try to do so unilaterally would be to lose out in the international rat race, and probably create a very unpopular economic environment. Nobody wants recession, especially permanent recession. I decided to opt out of the consumer rat race ten years ago. I did so for entirely selfish reasons, certainly with no regard for the future of my grandchildren, let alone the future of mankind, but at least it means that I'm now consuming and polluting perhaps 90% less. I, like others on this forum, may have only 15 - 25 years left on this Earth. We are not the ones who will face the worst. At least we can try to push the boat out in an attempt to rescue our descendents from hell.

Congrats, DA, on abstaining from swordfish. I assert very positively that it's not meaningless. That kind of thing may not seem like a lot, but multiplied by millions it is. Maybe we should start a 'Consumers Anonymous' group!

I should apologise for this lack of scientific input, but it is important to keep in mind why science is so vitally important to the future of humanity.

Ouch! Here's me...cringing. We just had Swordfish last night. Hey, it was Friday, gimme a break. Sauteed in Mango and Papaya juice and served up with orange rice and mango salsa, it was delicious.

The point is, saving ourselves from ourselves will take a whole lot more than a bunch of well-meaning people switching off lights, using recycled shopping bags, shutting down A/C's and riding bikes to work. And giving Swordfish a rest. In China, I hear that the number of cars on the road increases by 3,000 EVERY DAY.

At this point in History, the Future doesn't look very good. for Humanity. What we REALLY need is a good solid dose of Famine, War or Pestilence. You know, to "thin out the herd" as it were.

No apology required.

What would be nice would be if some of the lurkers got involved in discussing what might be done to stuff the genie back into the bottle and what they are doing, at that intersection between politics and science, to encourage their government to stop wasting time.

Wouldn't it be fascinating if the Kyoto Protocol nations were to boycott goods made in the US until my country signed on? I'd love to see it.

Wolfman wrote:

'What we REALLY need is a good solid dose of Famine, War or Pestilence. You know, to "thin out the herd" as it were.'

I'm sure it'll happen Wolf. It won't be pleasant. I've only tried marlin once, a friend had caught it. Whale, anyone?

There is little question in my mind that the planet will soon get a dose of very unpleasant reality. And very predictably:

1. No one in power will be held accountable.
2. No one that suffers will be rich.
3. No one that is poor will matter.
... unless they own a Kalashnikov
... and that is a truly great tragedy.

Ultimately the worst of decisions will be made by those that allow the plutocrats, aristocrats, and kleptocrats to make bad decisions on their behalf. So perhaps, in a manner of speaking, it is right they should suffer the most.

I wish environmental responsibility was as important to people as a football game: Alas it is not.

To Ash:
Magnetic field is weaken, everything on Earth is miserly but it didn't happen just like that, humans are to blaim! As DA said everything we do effects the planet we live on! And sadly there's a lot of things we do! Bad things!
Try to help - that's my advice. Even little things can make difference.

And to DA: YOU'RE ALMOST 60?? What do you teach - if it's not a secret?

To Ash:
Magnetic field is weaken, everything on Earth is miserly but it didn't happen just like that, humans are to blaim! As DA said everything we do effects the planet we live on! And sadly there's a lot of things we do! Bad things!
Try to help - that's my advice. Even little things can make difference.

And to DA: YOU'RE ALMOST 60?? What do you teach - if it's not a secret?

Post deleted by Amaranth Rose II

Post deleted by Amaranth Rose II

quantum asks:
"And to DA: YOU'RE ALMOST 60?? What do you teach - if it's not a secret?"

Computer science ... focusing on database technology.

My background is physics and chemistry. Life takes interesting twists. It looks like I may be heading back into chem again if all goes well.

Quantum, you're the first person I've heard to suggest that human activities are weakening the magnetic poles. How does that work?

I'm in total agreement that we are causing an increase in global warming and we are trashing our planet in general, but as far as I know we are thus far not culpable for the magnetosphere. (Of course, we are looking at ways to propel spacecraft using the our magnetosphere and those of other planets, and that may lead to a way to get free energy from it. If that happens, we could very well hasten the weakening of the poles.)

The poles switch naturally, and we're about due for another switch. Nobody knows why. And it will be experienced as a gradual diminishment of the magnetosphere down to nothing followed by mass extinctions followed by a gradual strengthening of the reverse polarity magnetosphere. But if you've read somewhere that we're causing that, I'd surely love to read about it.

By the way, when you get double posts (or more), you can click the edit button on one of them and then click the delete button on the edit page. That way you can get rid of the dupes.

w

Wayne wrote:

"a gradual diminishment of the magnetosphere down to nothing followed by mass extinctions"

Interestingly the earth's magnetic reversals don't coincide with any know extinction events. Things just seem to plod along. However a reversal may create havoc with electronics. Other people on SAGG would be able to comment on that with much more knowledge about the subject than I have.

Same here quantum. I can't see any way by which we could affect the earth's dynamo with our current technology.

to Wayne:
i did delete some of dupes last night as i was wrighting but i didn't manage to delete them all becouse my comp had some problems and i couldn't open the page anymore.

also, i didn't say that we are weakening the poles (even we potentially might and probably will!)
Quote: "Magnetic field is weaken, everything on Earth is miserly but it didn't happen just like that, humans are to blaim!"
- the "humans are to blaim refered to "everything on Earth is miserly"
apologize for incorrectly put sentence.
still, don't you think that it could be affected, considering todays technology...

DA:
Same here quantum. I can't see any way by which we could affect the earth's dynamo with our current technology.

fine then. if you think it's not "bad" enough.

quantum - what technology do you think could affect the magnetoshpere of the earth?

quantum:
Cokosi collega? Nice to see somebody from your beautiful part of the World here at Science a Go Go. Have I got a story for you - When I was much younger, I was a pretty good Basketball player. One Saturday morning in late September of 1972 I was playing in a pick-up game in a park in Zadar. We had quite a few people watching us. All of a sudden there was a lot of yelling and mad rush away from the court, and, just like that, the players were the only ones left there. We thought something must be happening, so we ran after the crowd. Kresimir Cosic had just returned from the Munich Olympic Games and had arrived in the park. I've never seen anything like it.

Canuck: what technology do you think could affect the magnetoshpere of the earth?

i don't know. i had my assumptions that it could but i'm not familiar with strenght and possibilities of our technology, that's why i asked
Quote: still, don't you think that it could be affected, considering todays technology...

since everybody replied that it is impossible i wrote
Quote: fine then. if you think it's not "bad" enough.

to Wolfman:
cokosi? huh?
about Kresimir Cosic: well, i wouldn't know - wasn't born yet, but i'm glad that you enjoyed in my country
p.s. i'm from split.

What technology could affect the magnetic field?

AM, FM, UHF, VHF, Satellite microwaves. All affect the frequency of the field and could in fact, be weakening the field, and cause GW.

The weakening magnetic field is a huge problem. If the frequency changes...Our brains operate on the same frequency as the magnetic field. It could result in confusion, or your brain could completely shut down. This has been proven by placing people under a different frequency, and they couldn?t function enough to touch their nose.

Some astronomers say that the physical poles will shift. This is scheduled for 2012, when the sun crosses the galactic equator, and we will be aligned with a black hole. This falls on the same date that the Mayan calendar ends and the I Ching predicts the end of the earth?Dec. 21, 2012. All three predict rising sea levels, GW, floods, stronger storms, earthquakes... Just Google the date for more info.

Tesla discovered how to harness electricity from the magnetic field about 100 year ago. It?s been all covered up by the government. I would be willing to bet that ?The Hum? or ?the Taos Hum? is related to Tesla?s free energy towers. Do your own research, like I did, and think for yourself.

Max wrote:
"AM, FM, UHF, VHF, Satellite microwaves. All affect the frequency of the field and could in fact, be weakening the field, and cause GW."

Here's a strong dose of reality:
"Earth?s iron core consists of a solid inner core about 2,400 kilometers in diameter and a fluid outer core about 7,000 kilometers in diameter. The inner core plays an important role in the geodynamo that generates Earth?s magnetic field, and an electromagnetic torque from the geodynamo is thought to drive the inner core to rotate relative to the mantle and crust."

Reference:
http://www.news.uiuc.edu/NEWS/05/0825earthcore.html

When you can show how satellite microwaves and AM radio affect the inner core let us know.

This is pure pseudoscience of no more value than an invisible purple rhinoceros dancing the Nutcracker while playing the violin. Except that it lacks the humor.

i was thinking similar to what you wrote (except considering Earth's ending - there were too many predictions - lot to talk about, besides it opens a new subject).
thing is, i didn't look for it becouse i have to learn something about the magnetism first (how can i read about something i'm not familiar with) and i didn't have much time so i skiped it for another occasion (i have some exams to do...)

Max
"This falls on the same date that the Mayan calendar ends and the I Ching predicts the end of the earth?Dec. 21, 2012"

Not a good idea to get into that stuff Max, science works much better than that twaddle.

Try this:
The Geodynamo
by Gary A Glatzmaier
Professor of Earth and Planetary Sciences
University of California, Santa Cruz

http://www.es.ucsc.edu/~glatz/geodynamo.html

HEY!!
i think i finally figure it out what Wolfman wanted to say!!!
Cokosi collega?
of course!!
Kako si kolega?
Dobro, hvala, a ti? I meni je drago da je netko s ovog foruma upoznat s mojim materinjim jezikom i da se cak trudi govoriti na njemu Znaci da vam je tamo ocito bilo lijepo!!

(c in cak, znaci and ocito should be written with &#269; but i'm not sure if your comp supports it so i skiped it)

cheers to Wolfman - come again

These are hard scientific facts. The crossing of the galactic equator is fact. The date is a fact. Ask any astronomer. I wasn't the one to notice that all three predict the same date. Just stating the facts. You alarmists should be having a breakdown over this. Here's two more facts...

1. The magnetic poles are moving, much faster than normal.
2. The magnetic field has weakened by 10 percent since the 19th century.

Don't confuse the frequency of the field with its strength or movement.

Thanks for the links. Perhaps you would like to point out where your links say I'm wrong? No? I thought not. Keep studying. It shows that you're learning. Now learn this...the difference between frequency and strength. I doubt I could get the alarmists to understand anything, and I'm through with explaining the basics to people who refuse to listen.

Start studying "sporadic-E propagation" then we can move on from there. Hey, you might learn something.

You also need to learn the difference between "could" and "will". I know when the alarmists say that CO2 and humans "could" cause GW...your mind will interpret that as "will" cause GW. However, when I say "could" I mean "could".

GW science is hocus pocus.

Troll mods...nice!

"Perhaps you would like to point out where your links say I'm wrong? No? I thought not. Keep studying. It shows that you're learning. Now learn this..."

(OK Mods, delete this if you like, but I think you should be weeding out the types who have nothing better to do than vent their spleen on the internet)

Max requests:
"Ask any astronomer."

So I did. I called my daughter. She's worked at both of the Gemini telescopes (Chile and Hawaii) and what she said would not be fit to print so let me phrase this more delicately for you Max: YOU ARE WRONG!

Those who have been here longer than you recall that she is a professional astronomer and in January of this year she brought a dozen colleagues up to the house for dinner, discussion, and a snowball fight (they don't have a lot of those in Chile or Hawaii).

Anyone interested in her presentation as AAAS:
http://www.aapt.org/Events/WM2007/upload/WM07%20Abstracts.pdf
Search for Close Binaries of Herbig Ae/Be Stars
Maria J. Cordero1, S. Thomas2, N. van der Bliek3, B. Rodgers4, G. Doppmann4, A. Sweet5
1Pontificia Universidad Catolica de Chile, Chile, 2UC Santa Cruz, 3CTIO, Chile, 4Gemini South Observatory, Chile, 5Macalester College.

You've got to be careful throwing around baseless challenges Max. Not all of us are sitting on the couch drinking beer. <g>

Still can't point out where I'm wrong? I know, personal insults are the norm for alarmists.

"but I think you should be weeding out the types who have nothing better to do than vent their spleen on the internet"

That would be you? Are you capable of having a conversation on an adult level? No? I thought not.

Troll Mod,
I very seriously doubt that your daughter said I was wrong about the crossing of the galactic equator. LOL! If she did...well, I don't feel a need to insult your daughter. If you even have a daughter.

This is real science here and I know it?s going right over your head. Maybe you should stick to computer science. LMK if you need help with that.

Max wrote:
"Still can't point out where I'm wrong?"

I don't paid to waste my time pointing out to people that gravity is the law either.

If you want an argument try a different URL.

Here what you get is ignored. One more shot like the last and YOYO.

Shot like what? You guys are the ones taking cheap shots. Please, ignore my posts and let reasonable people reply. I didn't come here for troll games.

"I don't paid to waste my time pointing out to people that gravity is the law either."

We all know this. It's you job to ignore any true science and ridicule anyone who doesn't buy the GW hocus pocus. Yes, gravity is a law. LOL!

I know that your curiosity will win and you look into sporadic-E propagation. Next...Schuman resonances. Don't think that any of this is my theory. No, this is all coming from modern science. Keep up. Yes, there is much more to science than CO2 forced GW.

quantum:
You'll have to bear with me, what little Serbo-Croatian I picked up while I was passing through there was all phonetic. But people don't know what they're missing by not travelling to Split, Dubrovnic and Zadar. The Adriatic Coast is a truly beautiful place. The Statue of Grigor is really impressive. Toni Kukoc and Dino Rada are well known to fans of American Basketball.

"But people don't know what they're missing by not travelling to Split, Dubrovnic and Zadar. The Adriatic Coast is a truly beautiful place."

Very true. I spent some time in the south. Beautiful.

Some of us do know and hope to visit. Sure hope quantum has a list of the best restaurants. <g>

Wolfman
I didn't mean nothing bad, just needed some time to figure it out. Didn't expect you'll reply on croatian
About Kresimir Cosic again, Croatians do have custom to react like that, especially considering athletes - they are particulary sensitive about them. When Janica and Ivica Kostelic came back from Winter Olympics few years ago, almost whole Croatia was on the Zagreb's town square...you should see that.


Well, you're all welcome anytime! I'll give you a tour.

The following is not on topic, sorry. A lot of people round here came from Croatia many years ago. They're usually called Dallies, from Dalmatia. Do you know of a book (in English) about the history of the Adriatic region in pre-Roman times? I find it interesting that Minoans seem not to have exploited the region very much, if at all. Was there another people who kept them out of the region?

Yes, we are a bit off the subject...
Well, Terry, it is familiar that there was a great culture in Neolithic Age on this areas but there is no evidence who were the first habitants. In fifth or sixt century BC, or even before, whole coast was populated, especially Hvar (between 3000 and 2000 BC) and Butmir (between 2000 and 1800 BC). They used stone, Bazalt and bones to make weapons and implements, sewing needles, pins and were familiar with use of sails and helms.
The Minoans were flourishing from approximately 2700 to 1450 BC so it is possible that they were kept away by these people. Also, it is familiar that this culture was connected with the culture from the Aegean Sea (it preceded Camares culture and was very similar to culture from east coasts of Mediterranean). Archeologists found a lot of articles such as cheramics of high quality wich they assumed were result of trade between east and west coast, as well those coasts with Sicilia and cultures from Aegean Sea. Maybe they had some kind of agreement with them in the welfare of the trade?
Someone was there, that's for sure, but first populace we have real evidence about were Ilirs (or Illyrians) who moved here in Bronze and Iron Age (around 2000 years BC).

Thanks Quantum. I've suspected for some time your comment is true:

"The Minoans were flourishing from approximately 2700 to 1450 BC so it is possible that they were kept away by these people."

They must have been very effective sailors to achieve that but we don't hear anything about them in history books. Presumably they traded up into the Po valley and so to Western Europe. Perhaps their trade with the Aegean region was via the Danube and Black Sea? I read recently that the Illyrian language was related to the East Italian languages, which makes sense. There seems to have been a lot happening in the region we know nothing about.

It's a facinating, over-looked part of the World. Right in the path between Italy and Turkey, between Moscow and Rome. Did you know that in Serbia they say "Da" for Yes and "Ciao" for Good-bye? Great looking women, too.

No, I didn't Wolfman. There are many more Croatians than Serbians here. They used to call themselves Yugoslavs. About all I know is that surnames in the region nearly all end in ...ic. Pronounced here, probably correctly, as itch.

Did I mention they have great looking women? Tall, thin, sexy?

Yes Wolfman, you've mentioned it!

Serbia is separated from Croatia for more then ten years now, but for long time those countries were connected (as well some others) so the languages are extremly similar. Croatians, Bosnians, Serbians, they all use "da" for yes and often "ciao" for good-bye. It is also noticable that southern and western parts of Croatia use amazingly lot of Italian words (ponistra, manistra, lavandin, sentada, la porta, puntizel), some of western parts, like Istra, still speak in Italian, and northern and eastern parts use German and Hungarian words. Serbia and Bosnia difference a bit becouse mostly one language inteferes (per instance Turkism in Bosnia). Also, Serbians talk very similar but they write on Cirilica.

Terry you wrote: Do you know of a book (in English) about the history of the Adriatic region in pre-Roman times?

No, I'm not familiar with that book. But I found a lot of informations in "Povijest Dalmacije" ("The History Of Dalmatia") by Grga Novak - last Croatian pre-historian.
Also Minoans waren't really mentioned.
As I said, they culture flourished while there was culture on this areas. Or they were kept away, or there was some kind of agreement, but as you said:
"Presumably they traded up into the Po valley and so to Western Europe. Perhaps their trade with the Aegean region was via the Danube and Black Sea?" Not sure. There was a lot of tradeing paths, archeological findings confirm that. But most of the history is just guessing.
you wrote: "I read recently that the Illyrian language was related to the East Italian languages, which makes sense."
Illyrians were bunch of nations called that becouse of their similarities. Languages also developed along the way by "adopting" words from other languages. Presuming that they were tradeing with Italy, that is logical. As Wolfman wrote: "Right in the path between Italy and Turkey, between Moscow and Rome." Being in the middle explains the diversity inside the language.
We still notice those words - we use them every day.

Oh, and yes. Mostly all surnames end with -ic (pronounced as itch )
Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian, practically every surname from ex Yugoslavia, so you'll find Jovovic, Andrijasevic, Juric, Mitrovic, Papic, Vladislavic, Jelovic, Kostelic, Cosic,...
Only some surnames from Lika seeme to differ (like Zobenica or Tesla) and those derived from other countries (mostly Italy).

Thanks Quantum. I'll try to track down the book "The History Of Dalmatia" by Grga Novak through our local library. With so many local people from the region it's likely to be available. Other common names here: Vadanovich, Marsich, Yovich, Kokich (local spellings).

I'm not sure the book is available on English. Try to find it, or ask someone to translate it for you.

Correction:
Ask someone to translate the parts you're interested in, of course, not the whole book (it isn't that long but it has two parts).