Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Climate Change Forum Hey! Just a question about this stuff....

I should think many others also find the Gaia hypothesis compelling. I certainly do. Looking at how evolution works and how ecological systems work, it doesn't take a leap of the imagination to picture the entire biosphere functioning as a single living entity with a miriad components, all interdependent; but I suppose there's enough discussion space in the topic to support another forum!

Ellis. Tim Flannery deserves to be widely read. His books "The Eternal Frontier" (basically a history of the USA from the end of the Cretaceous until today) and "The Future Eaters" (about the first immigrants to Australia and New Zealand) are classic analyses.

Regarding Gaia. I read it many years ago and spent some time wondering where humans might fit into the system. Eventually an idea came to me on the way to visit my brother. His job involved crushing the limestone laid down in the middle of the Tertiary so it could be spread round the impoverished soils of Northland. Perhaps we evolved to redistribute materials previously taken out of circulation.

Clearly, humans haven't been fitting into the system well enough, and are in the process of being given the elbow. We have to (a) modify our activities to meet the requirements of the system, i.e. Gaia, and (b) modify the system so that it's better able to accommodate us. Failing that, we are history - or at least we would be, if anyone were left to read it.

It's not climate change alone, of course. It's also resources. We're already past 6.5 billion; twice the figure my geography teacher once gave me. If we, each of us, don't radically change our way of life and expectations, Gaia will operate to preserve herself in some other way. That's the theory, is it not?

Oh, I see very clearly how "we humans" fit into the Gaia Model. Assuming the analogy that Earth is a Living Being, then humanity is a virus. The larger entity will do what it must in order to survive.

I think Wolfman's analogy rather accurate.

Bacteria and molds are at least capable of constraining their reproduction.

Redewenur wrote:

"Clearly, humans haven't been fitting into the system well enough, and are in the process of being given the elbow."

Now, Rede, that is obviously not true. We may be fitting in too well. That's why there are so many of us.

Wolfman. Not all viruses are a problem.

Dan wrote:

"Bacteria and molds are at least capable of constraining their reproduction."

Don't give bacteria too much credit. The numbers of any species is controlled by selection. There is actually a great deal of evidence that many times human populations have expanded beyond the capability of local resources to support them and they have gone extinct locally. It's not spoken about very often because the implications are unpleasant. See Flannery's books and Jared Diamond's recent effort.

The huge advantage we have over bacteria is that we can become aware of the problem, and it seems most of us on this thread are. As Rede says we have two options:

(a) modify our activities to meet the requirements of the system, i.e. Gaia, and (b) modify the system so that it's better able to accommodate us.

I don't think we can do option (b). This leaves us with option (a).

We can ... of that I will agree.

Unfortunately history also teaches us that we won't.

Witness the examples you cite of numerous civilizations becoming extinct.

Yes, Terry, I agree, that's a reasonable alternative view; but we have severely abused the system. In that sense we can be seen as dangerous misfits. We must, as they say, shape-up or ship-out.

Has anyone here adjusted their daily life accordingly? That's not a rhetorical question. Making changes can be problematic.

Good question Redewenur. One problem with the way things are currently defined is that everyone can say yes. Why just the other day I changed a lightbulb from 100W to 60W. Or just last week I turned off a light bulb when I walked out of the room.

We need a measurable metric and we have none. When it is up to every individual to make their own choice everyone chooses to let the other guy do it or can feel really good about doing something totally inconsequential.

I, for example, haven't eaten swordfish for about 5 years even though I thoroughly enjoy it. Is it helping recovery of a resource heading toward extinction? Again ... who can say? But is just another example of making a personal sacrifice that is likely meaningless in isolation.

Without government imposed guidelines, such as those in Australia about lightbulbs, we are doomed by our nature.

Yes, right, human nature, human society...and governments that are naturally very reluctant to get to grips with it. For them to try to do so unilaterally would be to lose out in the international rat race, and probably create a very unpopular economic environment. Nobody wants recession, especially permanent recession. I decided to opt out of the consumer rat race ten years ago. I did so for entirely selfish reasons, certainly with no regard for the future of my grandchildren, let alone the future of mankind, but at least it means that I'm now consuming and polluting perhaps 90% less. I, like others on this forum, may have only 15 - 25 years left on this Earth. We are not the ones who will face the worst. At least we can try to push the boat out in an attempt to rescue our descendents from hell.

Congrats, DA, on abstaining from swordfish. I assert very positively that it's not meaningless. That kind of thing may not seem like a lot, but multiplied by millions it is. Maybe we should start a 'Consumers Anonymous' group!

I should apologise for this lack of scientific input, but it is important to keep in mind why science is so vitally important to the future of humanity.

Ouch! Here's me...cringing. We just had Swordfish last night. Hey, it was Friday, gimme a break. Sauteed in Mango and Papaya juice and served up with orange rice and mango salsa, it was delicious.

The point is, saving ourselves from ourselves will take a whole lot more than a bunch of well-meaning people switching off lights, using recycled shopping bags, shutting down A/C's and riding bikes to work. And giving Swordfish a rest. In China, I hear that the number of cars on the road increases by 3,000 EVERY DAY.

At this point in History, the Future doesn't look very good. for Humanity. What we REALLY need is a good solid dose of Famine, War or Pestilence. You know, to "thin out the herd" as it were.

No apology required.

What would be nice would be if some of the lurkers got involved in discussing what might be done to stuff the genie back into the bottle and what they are doing, at that intersection between politics and science, to encourage their government to stop wasting time.

Wouldn't it be fascinating if the Kyoto Protocol nations were to boycott goods made in the US until my country signed on? I'd love to see it.

Wolfman wrote:

'What we REALLY need is a good solid dose of Famine, War or Pestilence. You know, to "thin out the herd" as it were.'

I'm sure it'll happen Wolf. It won't be pleasant. I've only tried marlin once, a friend had caught it. Whale, anyone?

There is little question in my mind that the planet will soon get a dose of very unpleasant reality. And very predictably:

1. No one in power will be held accountable.
2. No one that suffers will be rich.
3. No one that is poor will matter.
... unless they own a Kalashnikov
... and that is a truly great tragedy.

Ultimately the worst of decisions will be made by those that allow the plutocrats, aristocrats, and kleptocrats to make bad decisions on their behalf. So perhaps, in a manner of speaking, it is right they should suffer the most.

I wish environmental responsibility was as important to people as a football game: Alas it is not.

To Ash:
Magnetic field is weaken, everything on Earth is miserly but it didn't happen just like that, humans are to blaim! As DA said everything we do effects the planet we live on! And sadly there's a lot of things we do! Bad things!
Try to help - that's my advice. Even little things can make difference.

And to DA: YOU'RE ALMOST 60?? What do you teach - if it's not a secret?

To Ash:
Magnetic field is weaken, everything on Earth is miserly but it didn't happen just like that, humans are to blaim! As DA said everything we do effects the planet we live on! And sadly there's a lot of things we do! Bad things!
Try to help - that's my advice. Even little things can make difference.

And to DA: YOU'RE ALMOST 60?? What do you teach - if it's not a secret?

Post deleted by Amaranth Rose II

Post deleted by Amaranth Rose II

quantum asks:
"And to DA: YOU'RE ALMOST 60?? What do you teach - if it's not a secret?"

Computer science ... focusing on database technology.

My background is physics and chemistry. Life takes interesting twists. It looks like I may be heading back into chem again if all goes well.

Quantum, you're the first person I've heard to suggest that human activities are weakening the magnetic poles. How does that work?

I'm in total agreement that we are causing an increase in global warming and we are trashing our planet in general, but as far as I know we are thus far not culpable for the magnetosphere. (Of course, we are looking at ways to propel spacecraft using the our magnetosphere and those of other planets, and that may lead to a way to get free energy from it. If that happens, we could very well hasten the weakening of the poles.)

The poles switch naturally, and we're about due for another switch. Nobody knows why. And it will be experienced as a gradual diminishment of the magnetosphere down to nothing followed by mass extinctions followed by a gradual strengthening of the reverse polarity magnetosphere. But if you've read somewhere that we're causing that, I'd surely love to read about it.

By the way, when you get double posts (or more), you can click the edit button on one of them and then click the delete button on the edit page. That way you can get rid of the dupes.

w