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This is going farther and farther afield. Please bring your conversation to Science or a Science-related topic or face the consequences.

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If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose

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Please, for all of us posters to this popular thread, define what the "field" is, and what is a "not-quite-science". Who makes this decision, anyway? I am very curious.

BTW, how much do you know about Nicola Tesla? Originally, an orthodox Christian, he was a great scientist who had a strong opinion about science and religion. Are you aware of this?

BTW, if I am expected to cater to a defined and certain "party line" I will be happy to be out of here. You will not need to fire me, I quit, willingly, if this is your wish.

Keep in mind that the WWW has many opportunites for the FREEDOM of expression. Thank G?D!


Last edited by Revlgking; 01/21/07 04:33 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
If you will accept my right to define GOD as I understand GOD to be, I can prove that GOD is.


This is the start of a common line of poor reasoning. The writer then defines God as a thing whose existence could hardly be questioned by anyone, and then goes on to suggest that this object which obviously exists has all of the qualities of a God that is defined in some other way.

There's another form of poor reasoning that goes: such and such was a famous scientist and he believed in God; therefore, God is a scientific concept.

There are many places on the net to promote religion, under the pretense of doing science or being scientific. The Net is a big place and there's room for everyone. Perhaps you would be happier over at a place like Uncommon Descent.

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So, I give you the same opportunity: Give all of us your definition of God. What is it?

BTW, I am not a dogmatist--in any way, shape, or form. I love to dialogue. If you do too, I like your style. Okay?


Last edited by Revlgking; 01/21/07 04:34 AM.

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All this silly stuff proves what I said at the beginning--this topic is not a scientific one --because it examines belief, which is based on faith and neither are capable of proof under examination. It's a shame, but any attempt to discuss this topic will always be hijacked by a fervent "believer" who will tell you that what they think is right and the only truth because God told them. There is no reasoning with them. They have heard their god and sometimes that takes them to war--in Iraq perhaps.

I was enjoying the earlier discussion too!

Ellis #17778 01/21/07 04:24 AM
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i agree with you
but in my search for truth, i have found that Christianity is the only explainable answer to the phenomenon of life, and of the universe
for science comes from the latin word "scire" meaning "to know; to discern" which is as best as i could translate
so technically science is the act of someone trying to know; implying their own search for truth

Tim #17780 01/21/07 05:19 AM
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CHRISTIANITY. IS IT THE ONLY ANSWER?
Tim, first of all, I was raised a Christian and I have a great deal of respect for the teachings of Jesus as found in the Gospels.

I also love his teachings about the fact that we must act on what we say we believe. Otherwise, we are hyocrites. I especially like what John who says when he writes: "God is love."

As I write the following, please free to correct me, if I misquote and/or misunderstand you. In the light of what you wrote, may I ask:

1. Is it truly your opinion that Christianity is THE one and only true religion? If so, what do we do with all the other major religions--Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. Do we have to say that they are all false and that all followers of other sincere faiths are doomed to hell?

2. Do you reallhy believe that all non-Christians are doomed, even if they live moral and ethical lives while sincerely following their faith?

3. When you say "Christianity" which one of the many forms of it do you mean? Roman Catholicism? Old Catholics? The Anglo Catholics? Protestantism? And there are hundreds of different kinds of Protestants. Which of the Orthodoxies are the true ones?
It is a problem, right?

4. If science is all about knowing the truth, what do we really know about the nature and function of religion?

Personally speaking, I respect all sincere forms of religion as valid, which contribute to the public good. I even include the many good people who choose to be secularists--that is, the ones who live without any form of formal or organized religion.

Let us not forget that Jesus said: "Where two or more are gathered together..." He did not say that it had to be hundreds and more.





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Tim #17781 01/21/07 05:22 AM
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Tim wrote:
"but in my search for truth, i have found that Christianity is the only explainable answer to the phenomenon of life, and of the universe"

Really Tim ... tell us about your search for truth. And while you are at it why don't you explain to us you understanding of the following formula:

e^(i pi) = -1

BTW: If you can't explain it then maybe you would understand why someone might conclude you've insufficient information upon which to render an opinion on the subject.

Come on Kate and Rose and Rusty? What does it take to convince you that this is pure unadulterated and pathetic nonsense posted by religious trolls?


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God is a tuna. Tunas exist. Therefore God exists. Therefore all the other pseudointellectual baggage that people associate with God are also true characteristics of it.

Here's the biggest problem with religious people - despite anything they say, they're more interested in defining the truth than in discovering it.

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Yes. A friend of mine in Australia used to say "God is just another name for all there is". We always used to ask him why he needed a name for that. Anyway, if in fact God is just another name for all there is Islam is the only sensible religion. Submission to God's will is the only option we have. Surely if God is all-knowing whatever we do will be his/her/its will.

DA. This is actually the not quite science forum. OK we might have moved further away than not quite.

Last edited by terrytnewzealand; 01/21/07 07:13 AM.
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Originally Posted By: DA Morgan

...Come on Kate and Rose and Rusty? What does it take to convince you that this is pure unadulterated and pathetic nonsense posted by religious trolls?
And, while you are at it, Kate, Rusty and Rose, keep in mind that there is such a thing as PSYCHOLOGY of religion: The serious and objective study of what is it about human nature which makes the vast majority of us want to believe in something beyond the gods of materialism?

Then there is a certain few--very few, actually--who believe in the many gods--for example, money, power, sex and other unconscious drives--of materialism, as the ultimate power?

http://www.psywww.com/psyrelig/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_of_religion

AND DON'T FORGET COMPARATIVE RELIGION, please
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_religion



Last edited by Revlgking; 01/21/07 02:00 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
1. Is it truly your opinion that Christianity is THE one and only true religion? If so, what do we do with all the other major religions--Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. Do we have to say that they are all false and that all followers of other sincere faiths are doomed to hell?


Revlking,

I'll explore one of your questions. As you used to be a Minister I would think you probably know about the mainstream stance on this issue.

Think about Heliocentrism. One group of people thought the sun revolved around the earth whilst others thought it was the other way round. Only ONE group was right. So we shouldn't have a problem believing that many can be mistaken and some can have truth.

Christians in the UK evangelical tradition, along with many others, believe that people who have never encoutered Christ will of course not be called to account on the basis of how they responded to him. So a Muslim who has never been given a realistic representation of Christ will be judged upon how they have responded to their conscience. This is the case with all Old Testament characters and with tribal peoples etc.

Regarding what is false - both sides on the Heliocentrism debate understood a fair amount of the truth. They understood that heavenly bodies revolved in defined ways etc. There is truth found in all faiths, and most thinking Christians would recognise that we have no basis for claiming absolute knowledge of truth. In the words of St. Paul - 'We see through a glass darkly. We know now in part - but then we shall know in full(upon death)'. Other faiths also see through a glass darkly. As does science when it turns its head to an examination of similar ideas. But even Sam Harris, America's Atheist Bulldog, has his share of truth.

There is much to be learnt from sincere people of different faiths.

It is incorrect to talk of Christians believing that anyone who does not pursue a dogged theological line will end up being rejected by God.

From http://geneva.rutgers.edu/src/christianity/heavenhell.html

" The standard Christian position is that anyone who rejects Christ will end up in hell. Does this mean that only Christians can be saved? The Catholic church and many Protestant churches don't think so. They believe it is possible that Christ can come to someone in an inward and spiritual way, even if they've never heard of Christ. Thus someone can be an "anonymous Christian." That is, they can know Christ spiritually without realizing it it Christ.

Most Christians also believe that God's judgement will take into account the sorts of opportunities a person had to learn the truth. A person who has never heard the Gospel can't be said to have rejected Christ. An even worse situation occurs when Christians have persecuted other groups. A person who sees Christ as a persecutor has hardly had a real exposure to the Gospel.

[Historical note: It's worth noting that two major classical Protestant writers thought it was possible for non-Christians to be saved: Zwingli and Wesley. Calvin did not.] "

Blacknad.

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Revlgking wrote:

"And, while you are at it, Kate, Rusty and Rose, keep in mind that there is such a thing as PSYCHOLOGY of religion: The serious and objective study of what is it about human nature which makes the vast majority of us want to believe in something beyond the gods of materialism?"

There is the quite reasonable idea that selection led to the human need for a religion. It provided an evolutionary advantage to groups that had it. At some stage, and possibly mtEve's line has got something to do with it, it became an advantage to live in groups larger than simply the ape-type family group. Bands that developed a tribal conciousness out-competed those without. Therefore there is nothing inherently true about religion, it's just that it's been hard-wired into our instincts, whatever they are.

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Blacknad, there is much wisdom in what you write.

It is always a pleasure to dialogue with posters who are gracious and polite.

Though I am retired from the active pastoral ministry (1953-1994), I still think of myself as being "in the ministry"--that is, ministering to people and the community, being of service in any way I can--physically, mentally and spiritually--to people who need and ask for help.

Because, currently, the only pills I take are vitamins, minerals, enzymes and structured/oxygenated water I may be around for a few years yet.

Many years ago, I spent to years at Boston University--founded by the Methodists--studying the lives of liberal thinkers such as Wesley. I did a series of studies and a thesis on, "The Story of Ideas". Very interesting.

BTW, Martin Luther King, a Baptist, graduated from BU, as a minister, just as I entered to do postgrad work. At the time, there were over 500 students in the School of Theology.

What issues are there, close to your heart, about which you would like to dailogue? And not just with me, okay?





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Originally Posted By: terrytnewzealand
Revlgking wrote:...There is the quite reasonable idea that selection led to the human need for a religion. It provided an evolutionary advantage to groups that had it. At some stage, and possibly mtEve's line has got something to do with it, it became an advantage to live in groups larger than simply the ape-type family group. Bands that developed a tribal conciousness out-competed those without....


Very valuable observation, TNZ.

Quote:
Therefore, there is nothing inherently true about religion, it's just that it's been hard-wired into our instincts, whatever they are.
Okay, let us assume that you have a point: Where do we go from here? Do you think that in order to dicuss this we need to start a new thread? I did start one called, COSMOTHEISM.... If you have a better idea, I'm easy, okay?

You're next.

BTW, I love discussing the philosophy and psychology of religions with anyone willing to do so--plural intended. The dogma of religions is something else such as....Well, where do we go from here?




Last edited by Revlgking; 01/21/07 10:37 PM.

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Blacknad wrote:
" [Historical note: It's worth noting that two major classical Protestant writers thought it was possible for non-Christians to be saved: Zwingli and Wesley. Calvin did not.] "

Your post brings up an interesting fact that is rarely discussed.

The writings about what god intends to do with his flock of sheep has all been written by people that not only never met or heard Jesus Christ but also, for the most part, never once read an accurate account what what he said.

Essentially all Christian writings, like those you reference, are by people (however well meaning) appointing themselves to interpret something of which they have only third hand knowledge. Which is not different from those who presume to tell us what is really happening between in international affairs and they can't even get that right.

So why would anyone put any value on these opinions? At their root they are grounded in smoke and mirrors.

And speaking of the one true religion ... consider once again:
"Scriptures: the sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based."
~ Ambrose Bierce

And given my disgust with this thread which is as relevant to science as a bottle of American beer ... here's something equally relevant to this thread but far more enjoyable.

"The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears and to gather to your bosom his wives and daughters."
~ Genghis Khan, 1226


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This thread looks like it's in the right place - The Not Quite Science Forum. People wanting to discuss SCIENCE should flip on over to the General Science section or Physics or Whatever. Hope that clarifies things for those debating the worthiness of this thread.

Kate #17799 01/22/07 03:15 AM
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Revlgking wrote:

"The dogma of religions is something else such as....Well, where do we go from here?"

I suspect it is the dogma of a religion that is the most important aspect of that religion. But it's the dogma of religions that is dangerous. Religious dogma is often used to gain support for imperialist expansions, not just in the distant past I might add. Presumably religious dogma has been used in tribal warfare since the idea of tribal warfare emerged. Members of other tribes would be regarded as inferior therefore it was doing the world a favour to get rid of them. I wonder if chimpanzees use the same justifications when they go to war with other tribes?

Anyway after twelve pages no-one has yet provided any evidence for God. Or evidence against I suppose.

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Thanks for the clarification Kate. The gloves are off and the invisible purple rhino is set to charge into the fray.

Absolutely correct TNZ. Essentially all religions, especially Christianity, are primarily political movements intended to control the beliefs and behaviors of people based upon brainwashing children based on ritual and dogma. Of course, as always, accompanied by the threat that if you don't do what we say you are going to burn for eternity in hell.

Witness above, Black posting "Does this mean that only Christians can be saved?" which goes to the heart of the threat. We, not one of whom ever actually heard a single word spoken by god or Jesus Christ or the devil or the snake or Moses or Joe the Bartender, presume upon ourselves to determine who is and who is not going to make it into the mythical place of eternal damnation. Talk about self-delusion and self-aggrandizement.

What ever happened to living a decent life and that respect for oneself and from one's peers being sufficient? Well that doesn't give some minister appropriate control of his or her tribe.

And speaking of the tribal nature of self-righteous Christian clergymen here's a newsflash from my area. We have the leader of a congregation here who, in the name of his saviour Jesus Christ has decided to introduce a law to deprive some people of their lawfully granted civil rights. Read all about it:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/222495_hutcherson02.html

Jesus could consort with the poor and prostitutes. But the good reverend can only consort with the wealthy and the neo-fascist.
I'll bet this guy is as twisted as a whirlpool.


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Originally Posted By: DA Morgan


1.Witness above, Black posting "Does this mean that only Christians can be saved?" which goes to the heart of the threat.

2. We have the leader of a congregation here who, in the name of his saviour Jesus Christ has decided to introduce a law to deprive some people of their lawfully granted civil rights. Read all about it:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/222495_hutcherson02.html



Dan,

Point 1. The answer, clearly, amongst the majority of Christendom is that not everyone who rejects Christianity has in fact rejected God.

Not exactly 'Control and Command' here, and again is part of the mythical view of Christianity whereby its failures define its entirety. Which leads to your second point...

Point 2. There are 500,000 priests, minister, pastors in the USA. Amongst that lot will be some nuts, some people trying to escape their own personal failings (etc. Paedophiles), and even those who are simply in it for their own needs - personal recognition, use it as a career and so on. There are also many faithful people who are trying their hardest to live a good life and to do good in their community and further a field.

It comes as no surprise then that some of these half a million leaders will fall from grace because of their own personal issues or even fall prey to the temptations of power.

You are arguing from the specific to the general and it just doesn't wash with someone who is actually much closer to the church than you are, and has a much better view of what goes on 'on the ground'.

Your sample group is statistically unsound and in your normal scientific endeavours you would never dream of drawing conclusions based upon such flimsy evidence.

But this is something I see all the time. Rational scientists throwing out scientific discipline when they want to support their irrational dislike of religion. Sam Harris does it - Richard Dawkins does it - and here it is again.

Blacknad.

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