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#17129 - 04/19/06 04:25 PM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"the chemicals in the ocean will take care of them selfs."

I feel so much better now. Thank you for informing me that all of the experts in meteorology at major universities and research centers are incorrect.

Just one quick question though. On what basis did you determine this? Fox News?
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#17130 - 04/19/06 11:44 PM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
no, the fact that the earth could do this long before man was even a distant possiblity. the earth was handling this long before the dinosaurs and will continue handling it long after man is a distant forgotten fossil.

as ive said the meteorology ppl are basising this on the believe that what the world was like 200 years ago is the right conditions for the earth. they dont consider that the earth had a much higher co2 lvl in the past.

explain something to me.

dinosaurs were big creatures. the meat eaters required huge amount of meat much of which came from plant eaters. for the plant eater to have the kind of mass that would feed the meat eaters the plants had to be large. our current atmosphere and climate does not allow plants to grow like that. only an environment
much higher in co2 could sustain that kind of plant. yet ppl like you claim that that kind of co2 would ruin the world. please explain how it did not ruin the world back then.

in addition the plants required a much higher lvl of water vapor and rain than is currently possible with our environment. yet life existed then, and if other life could exist then, we can adapt to it.
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#17131 - 04/20/06 04:51 AM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"the fact that the earth could do this long before man was even a distant possiblity."

Oh and it can. Over tens of thousands to millions of years. Plan on living that long or do you just not give a rip about anybody except yourself?

Obviously you either have no children or ate them.
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#17132 - 04/20/06 05:00 AM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
i dont believe that we will destroy our children. unlike you, i dont believe that we are capable of destroying the world or its ecology. i believe its a lot more robust than you do, and i beleive that its less likely that things will be completely destroyed. i dont see how you could believe that.

the point is, the earth has been here before, and will be again. we are doing no more than speeding the change. if that.
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#17133 - 04/20/06 02:00 PM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:
Originally posted by dehammer:
i dont believe that we will destroy our children. unlike you, i dont believe that we are capable of destroying the world or its ecology. i believe its a lot more robust than you do, and i beleive that its less likely that things will be completely destroyed. i dont see how you could believe that.

the point is, the earth has been here before, and will be again. we are doing no more than speeding the change. if that.
You've got to be kidding. There are habitat types that were extensive only a couple of centuries ago, and they're almost non-existent today, due to human activity. We're extirpating species at an accelerating rate -- a rate that mirrors the mass extinctions.

No, we won't "destroy Earth," but we are actively destroying the habitats in which many of the present species evolved. We could very well be destroying the habitats in which humans are most comfortable. We're very likely making things hard for future generations of humans.
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#17134 - 04/20/06 02:28 PM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
extrasense Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 427
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by soilguy:
we won't "destroy Earth," but we are actively destroying the habitats in which many of the present species evolved. We could very well be destroying the habitats in which humans are most comfortable. We're very likely making things hard for future generations of humans.
What about making life liveable for current generations of humans?
If we could do that, the future generations will take care of themselfs too.

ES

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#17135 - 04/20/06 02:38 PM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
"No, we won't "destroy Earth," but we are actively destroying the habitats in which many of the present species evolved. We could very well be destroying the habitats in which humans are most comfortable. We're very likely making things hard for future generations of humans."

yes, many habitats are being destroyed, but are you absolutley sure that humans are the only cause of that. ive said repeatedly that we are accelerating the process, but unless something happens to cause a new glacial period, this ice age is going to end and any species that cant adapt is going to die. how much of that loss of habitats are due to that and now much of it is human caused is not as easy as many ppl want to believe. yes when we build on top of the only habitat a species has, that is likely the cause of that perticular species demise, or when chemicals we use poisons them, we might be the cause. but that is not always the case. species have been dying off long before man showed up on the scene, are we responsible for their demise as well.

as far as our future generations, like other species when the ice age, they will have to adapt or die. personally i would not bother taking bets against their adaption. humans have adapted to every environment on earth and i dont see whats coming as being much harder to adapt to than that. as es said, the future generations will have the ability to take care of themselfs. they are no less capable than you are.
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#17136 - 04/20/06 05:42 PM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Simple minds don't do well when mucking about with complex systems.

If you are young enough you will live long enough to wish you were eating something other than your words.
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#17137 - 04/20/06 06:34 PM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
extrasense Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 427
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Simple minds don't do well when mucking about with complex systems.
The thing is, that we have 7 bln humans already.
Obviously, it is at least 1000 times more than it was 500 years ago.

The only reason that this expansion will not continue for another 500 years, is that the environment will and is turning against us.

So, this is a good thing.

We do not create problem by our actions, but by our very existance.

The well wishers are nutcakes, who want to squre out this circle. You can't.

es

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#17138 - 04/20/06 10:20 PM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
The planet can sustain a lot more humans. And if you don't believe that I invite you to visit Hong Kong sometime.

That said ... some of us are more concerned about quality than quantity.
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#17139 - 04/20/06 10:49 PM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
extrasense Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 427
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
The planet can sustain a lot more humans.
Obviously, there is a trend, that resource consumption is becoming a problem, with current population levels.
No matter how equally you are going to spread misery, apparently environment is stretched - otherwise we would not be talking about "Global Warming" and such.

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#17140 - 04/21/06 09:53 AM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Simple minds don't do well when mucking about with complex systems.

If you are young enough you will live long enough to wish you were eating something other than your words.
it would appear that there is not a human mind complex enough to understand the earth completely and we have not gotten god (which ever one you wish wink ) to spell it out for us yet in terms humans can understand perhaps there are aliens out there that have a better grip on it, but they are not being very forthcomeing about it either :rolleyes: .

scientist in the 50 figure out that when the population reached 1 billion the worlds economy would crash since there was no way man could feed that many. then it was 3 billion and then 5 and then 7 now there are 7 million and growing and still food is there. as of yet they are still predicting that when we get another 2 billion the world will crash. the thing is the population increases are mostly in countries that would be the first to be hit with the lack of resourses. when those countries hit their ceiling, perhaps we will finally figure out where the limit is.
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#17141 - 04/21/06 02:09 PM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
Cousin Elwood Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 16
Loc: Concord, CA
"The climate is crashing, and global warming is to blame!"
- - And yet Ehrlich and the rest of the Chicken Littles originally gathered (1968) to sound the alarm over global COOLING!

"Not my words ... those of Time Magazine."
- - Now THERE is a source!!

"Never mind what you've heard about global warming as a slow-motion emergency that would take decades to play out. Suddenly and unexpectedly, the crisis is upon us."
- - As Rachel Carson warned us, the world will end in 1985! oh wait, that can't be right...

"The problem -- as scientists suspected but few others appreciated"
- - Be careful from whom you take your lead. Very few legitimate climatologists support the whole greenhouse gas/GW theory. Most of the "scientists" making noise on the subject have specialization in other fields... like orthodonture!

"Late last year, for example, researchers analyzed data from Canadian and European satellites and found that the Greenland ice sheet is not only melting, but doing so faster and faster, with 53 cubic miles draining away into the sea last year alone, compared to 23 cubic miles in 1996."
- - And yet the ice crust over Greenland is over 400 feet thicker than it was sixty years ago.

"Ocean water does just the opposite, absorbing 90 percent of the light and heat it receives, meaning that each mile of ice that melts vanishes faster than the mile that preceded it."
- - You are forgetting the mammoth heat sink surrounding our planet. We call it "space."

"This is what scientists call a feedback loop"
- - Only in a closed system, which this ain't.
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#17142 - 04/21/06 02:43 PM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
Cousin Elwood Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 16
Loc: Concord, CA
"Coral growth and repair rates are slowing down. Rupert Ormond, a marine biologist from Glasgow University, says that the world's coral reefs will be dead within 50 years because of global warming, and there is nothing we can do to save them."
- - He may be right about the dying reefs, but he's not a climatologist. More likely the cause is pH, not GW.

"Add water to a glass, it fills up. Drop ice cubes in it, it over flows."
- - When the ice that's already in the glass melts, the level of the water goes DOWN.

"(Average global temperatures are expected to rise 5 degrees by then)."
- - Based on the IPCC temperature data which was faulty.

"...it will release billions of tons of stored carbon into the atmosphere, accelerating global warming."
- - Only if you assume a closed system.

"Whats worse is that a paper published in 2005 linked a one-degree rise in sea surface temperature to the increase of hurricane intensity."
- - Except that there hasn't been a 1? rise in ocean surface temperatures when global conditions are averaged.

"The forecast for 2006 Atlantic hurricane season, which runs from June 1 to Nov. 30, calls for 17 tropical storms and 9 named hurricanes."
- - Less than 2005? How can that be if GW is the cause? Where I live, the weather forecasters can't get it right for tomorrow afternoon. I'm not too concerned about their predictions for the next century...

"with 2005 being the hottest year in history."
- - Not globally, only in isolated areas where the psuedoscientists are reporting. The data that doesn't support their theories tends to end up on the cutting room floor.

"Things are picking up, and fast. You don't need to be a scientist to see this."
- - Actually, you do. The increrase in temperatures over the last 50 years (when corrected for the misinformation) is two digits to the right of the decimal point.

"We are directly responsible for these effects and it is becoming more and more evident."
- - It takes incredible levels of self-esteem (arrogance) to think that we're capable of causing a significant change in global temperatures.
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Friendship is like peeing your pants. The whole world can see it, but only you experience the warmth.

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#17143 - 04/21/06 03:11 PM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
Cousin Elwood Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 16
Loc: Concord, CA
"But then I also go to the library here at the university and read actual science written by actual scientists in peer reviewed journals."
- - I think you should get out more. Those academics are like the jazz musicians who only play for each other because no one wants to hear their stuff. Just because it's published doesn't make it valid.

"We are actually the primary cause. Really."
- - We couldn't be if we wanted to be. We don't have the technology to deliberately increase temperatures globally.

"I know you find this amazing but it is the fact. And it is fact proven by study after study after study."
- - I don't find it amazing, just ridiculous. The studies that allegedly support this wild-eyed theory are based on a closed system. If there was a shell around the earth, instead of space, then these theories would actually be valid.
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Friendship is like peeing your pants. The whole world can see it, but only you experience the warmth.

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#17144 - 04/21/06 03:42 PM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
Cousin Elwood Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 16
Loc: Concord, CA
"Obviously, there is a trend, that resource consumption is becoming a problem, with current population levels."
- - Obvious to whom and based on what?

"otherwise we would not be talking about 'Global Warming' and such."
- - We're talking about GW for the same reason lesser minds talk about Hollowood's (sic) icons - simply because it is in someone's financial interest to have the discussion.

A lot of folks in academia would be out of business if they didn't have a cause celebre. That's why the decided to champion GW instead of GC (cooling).
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Friendship is like peeing your pants. The whole world can see it, but only you experience the warmth.

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#17145 - 04/21/06 09:36 PM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Elwood wrote:
"A lot of folks in academia would be out of business if they didn't have a cause celebre."

And a lot of crackpots wouldn't have a life if they couldn't pontificate on the internet.

Many of us are concerned about global warming because we are intelligent enough to understand the current environment and its consequences.
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#17146 - 04/22/06 12:31 AM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
Cousin Elwood Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 16
Loc: Concord, CA
You might have taken a moment to determine if I have some knowledge on the subject before you dismiss me...

Don't you wonder about the alarmists like Carson and Ehrlich whose dire predictions continually fail to materialize?
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Friendship is like peeing your pants. The whole world can see it, but only you experience the warmth.

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#17147 - 04/22/06 01:50 AM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Elwood wrote:
"You might have taken a moment to determine if I have some knowledge on the subject before you dismiss me"

And you might have actually done some work in the sciences before you wrote: "A lot of folks in academia would be out of business if they didn't have a cause celebre." which was more than enough of a calling card for anyone to slam the door on the Tuperware salesperson.

Elwood wrote:
"Don't you wonder about the alarmists like Carson and Ehrlich whose dire predictions continually fail to materialize?"

No. Because science doesn't give a damn about the pontification of self-annointed experts on any side of any debate. We pay attention to results obtained in accordance with the scientific method.

If you can't separate the advertising fluff from the substantive you probably think Tide makes your clothes whiter and brighter and Bucky Beaver brushes his teeth.
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DA Morgan

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#17148 - 04/22/06 02:19 AM Re: Global Warming PSEUDOSCIENCE
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Cousin Elwood, youve put in to many points for me to address point by point, so ill say it simple. thank god there is someone else that can see this.
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