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#16771 - 10/23/06 04:08 PM Greenland Ice Sheet On A Downward Slide
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
For the first time NASA scientists have analyzed data from direct, detailed satellite measurements to show that ice losses now far surpass ice gains in the shrinking Greenland ice sheet.

Using a novel technique that reveals regional changes in the weight of the massive ice sheet across the entire continent, scientists at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md., report that Greenland's low coastal regions lost 155 gigatons (41 cubic miles) of ice per year between 2003 and 2005 from excess melting and icebergs, while the high-elevation interior gained 54 gigatons (14 cubic miles) annually from excess snowfall. The study appears in Science Express, the advance edition of Science, on Oct. 19.

Source and the rest of the article:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/10/061019162746.htm

Sorry dehammer, RicS and JR ... scientific reality has again intruded into political correctness.

Additional related link:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov
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#16772 - 10/23/06 06:22 PM Re: Greenland Ice Sheet On A Downward Slide
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
once again you post to an news article as science data.

Quote:
DA Morgan
posted 10-22-2006 03:55 PM
I don't discuss topics ... I discuss science.

There are only two possibilities here dehammer.

1. You are incapable of finding links to actual research that supports your statements.

2. Actual research supporting your statements does not exist.

Which is it?
i guess your going to stop discussing this since it a topic rather than science.
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the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#16773 - 10/23/06 08:09 PM Re: Greenland Ice Sheet On A Downward Slide
RicS Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/26/06
Posts: 310
Loc: Sydney, Australia
G'day Morgan,

Thread Flooding Does Not Prove Anyone's Point of View

This is called thread flooding. This is the same topic as "Fun with Reality". The news article differs but it is about the same research. Compare: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/10/061019162746.htm
with the news link from "Fun with Reality":
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6069506.stm

The MODIS Rapid Response Initiative Worthy of Comment but Not Relevant to the Thread

http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov
The second link may be interesting but is mislabeled. It concerns images that NASA is attempting to make available shortly after an event. This includes cyclones, massive fire patterns and other global events. Actually it looks fascinating but is nothing to do with the first link.

Please refrain from doing this. If you wish to discuss Ice Sheet coverage in the Arctic, do so, but not with multiple threads and comments that do nothing to aid the discussion.

And dehammer, you are doing something I was guilty of. Responding to every one of these posts even when the only response that can be made is nothing but an attack on the original post. I'm not saying you are not correct in what you are saying, only that it isn't science and is not advancing this topic on this forum one little bit.

I've suggested that Climate Science be a bit differently organised. Any science discussions would be welcome. Any posts that were not actually science would be shifted to a specific thread. That way those that are interested in the science, such as you dehammer, when you ask specific questions or contribute to a post by either reasonable opinion or science based posts or Samwik's question about the MWP and the LIA.

I personally do not care whether the posts are grossly pro global warming or very much skeptical of the same thing. I would just like a thread on the GHCN data set to remain on that subject and a thread on arctic sea ice to be about Arctic sea ice and little else.

Right now there are almost a dozen climate change threads, all with the same discussions after a half dozen posts.


Richard
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Sane=fits in. Unreasonable=world needs to fit to him. All Progress requires unreasonableness

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#16774 - 10/23/06 08:16 PM Re: Greenland Ice Sheet On A Downward Slide
Uncle Al Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 540
Loc: Southern California
Enviro-whinerism has been blowing steam since Rachel Carson's Silent Spring. Disaster is always tomorrow. Pay up today or the Giant Flying Spaghetti monster will eat the sun.

The horrible giant cancer-causing Ozone Hole was caused by hundreds of millions of people squirting their armpits, chilling their beers, and enjoying efficient powerful air conditioning courtesy of freons. Freons have been banned for decades. Suppose freon emissions were irrelevant to the Ozone Hole. How would the Ozone Hole be different from what is observed?
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http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
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http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz3.pdf

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#16775 - 10/23/06 08:56 PM Re: Greenland Ice Sheet On A Downward Slide
samwik Offline
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Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
re: "I've suggested that Climate Science be a bit differently organised. Any science discussions would be welcome." -RicS

Hey Richard; seen my "fact" discussion on Origins (God & Science)?

What are the "founding assumptions" for the anti- & pro- GW theories? (I've got a few ideas written down already, but....)

Thanks mucho;
~~Samantic
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Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#16776 - 10/23/06 10:08 PM Re: Greenland Ice Sheet On A Downward Slide
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Al:
Enviro-whinerism has been blowing steam since Rachel Carson's Silent Spring. Disaster is always tomorrow. Pay up today or the Giant Flying Spaghetti monster will eat the sun.

The horrible giant cancer-causing Ozone Hole was caused by hundreds of millions of people squirting their armpits, chilling their beers, and enjoying efficient powerful air conditioning courtesy of freons. Freons have been banned for decades. Suppose freon emissions were irrelevant to the Ozone Hole. How would the Ozone Hole be different from what is observed?
that is something that has puzzled me.

supposedly the gas stays up there for decades.

we were using it for decades, so the stuff that was there in the begining should be disappating, yet the hole is actually growing. How can that be if that one chemical was the culpret.
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the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#16777 - 10/23/06 10:27 PM Re: Greenland Ice Sheet On A Downward Slide
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
re: "Hey Richard; seen my "fact" discussion on Origins (God & Science)?
I should add you need to read page 2 (hard to read, but TFF can fix it, I think), or read the whole thread.
Thanks,
~samwik

P.S. I was wondering about the ozone hole too (saw it was biggest this year), but figured it must be a delay effect combined with different physical conditions. ~Maybe not.
~S
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#16778 - 10/23/06 10:54 PM Re: Greenland Ice Sheet On A Downward Slide
RicS Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/26/06
Posts: 310
Loc: Sydney, Australia
G'day Sam,

I actually created quite a detailed reply then lost the whole thing. Sigh. Not well enough right now to do it again.

But you could answer this for me? Are you looking for the fundamental belief systems of those that believe in global warming and those that do not agree with it?

There is no simple answer to this if you are but its still an interesting question.

The ozone question is a weird one, not the question, the science. There was almost no one that disagreed with the theory that CFCs were causing the ozone hole, although I sort of wondered at the time was the hole simply there because they finally could measure it? There were a few people that suggested that it was always there or that it was part of a cycle of expansion and contraction.

Ozone is a strange substance. It is a nasty pollutant and ground level but essential for life at high levels. It is not a stable molecule at all and is easily disrupted.

But the politics of the ozone layer were a bit easier than global warming. Think of why you have insurance policies. Would you insure against your house being eaten by alligators for instance? Well you might if you lived in the Everglades and alligators had taken a liking to the type of material used in your house. But otherwise, it would be a rather pointless insurance policy. So if the risk is very small and the cost large then insurance is not a good option. But what about if the risks are small but the insurance costs are also small such as liability insurance with a homeowner's policy? It is more likely to be worthwhile because the losses are truly immense if that small risk comes around. And what of a risk that is not that small and the cost not that large such as fire insurance. It becomes rather illogical not to take out such insurance unless you could afford the loss and are willing to bear the risk because you have hundreds of properties and can spread the risk.

So ozone had a cost that was not all that small but in global terms not a great deal at all. The risk was terrible if true. From a low of causing many more cancers in Australia to major loss of human life or even threatening our existence. Like an insurance policy, it was not really worth taking the risk. It may have ruined a few businesses that manufactured freon, which really was not fair.

Now we find that the ozone hole is still around, even though the theories said it shouldn't be, or at least not as large. Maybe it really was natural afterall. Of course there is a far more nasty option. Perhaps the damage done by the CFCs was much worse than actualy thought and irreversible or something that may take centuries to balance out.

Regards


Richard
_________________________
Sane=fits in. Unreasonable=world needs to fit to him. All Progress requires unreasonableness

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#16779 - 10/23/06 11:25 PM Re: Greenland Ice Sheet On A Downward Slide
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
No, I'm not talking about belief systems (well, maybe; but not like religious beliefs). When I refer to founding assumptions, I mean things like: climate forcing exists, a number of different sources (solar, orbital, geography, etc.) cause climate forcing. Probably those "beliefs" are generally seen as "fact" (def.#5). There might be argument over whether anthropogenic forcing is such a basic fact. Some people might "believe" it is, and some not. Or, alternatively, if man-made forcing is accepted, the question is one of magnitude (& direction) relative to the other forcing mechanisms.

But as you say, climate science is bit different (complex?), and maybe trying to pin down a specific theory is too much. Basically, I think we're still operating on the level of hypotheses about climate change; and not very good one's either.
Thanks alot,
~Samwik

P.S. ...hate losing stuff like that; I'm cuttin&pastin more these days.
~~S
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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