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#16451 - 08/18/06 11:24 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
china is about the same point in the evolution of the understanding of their part of polution as we, the us, were in the 1960's or about. with luck, by seeing what is happening with america, they will not take 30 to 35 years or so to reach were we are now. If the us can find a better way (finacially) to do things more green, then they will copy it.

acutally polution has a half life, different types have different lengths. some forms of polution disappear in about 5 years, while nuclear polution can last thousands. so no its really not cumlative. It will build to a certain point, then the older stuff of that type will disappear. unfortuantely, some of it will take many decades to reach that level. IF in the meantime, a better way of doing things is found then the level will stop growing until that half life is reached. We can hope that that time will come soon, or we can do what we can to hasten it, and we can do our part to lower the amount of polution that is created. unless you live in china, i dont think there is much you can do about them.
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#16452 - 08/19/06 09:10 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"If the us can find a better way (finacially) to do things more green, then they will copy it."

The US is a decade or more behind Europe. Methinks the Chinese would do the planet a favour if they ignored the U.S. and its self-centered backward ways and studied Western Europe.

It isn't always about America and Americans.
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#16453 - 08/20/06 11:36 AM Re: trouble for global warming fans
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
probably true about them been better off following the european model. personally i dont know much about it. I always wanted to go to europe, but instead went to the orient when i was in the military.

thing is how does that have to do with the fact that there is really a whole lot of evidence piling up that says the global warming alarmist are barking up the wrong tree.
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#16454 - 08/20/06 08:30 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"thing is how does that have to do with the fact that there is really a whole lot of evidence piling up that says the global warming alarmist are barking up the wrong tree."

You want to know why I think your posts are not simplistic but lazy the above is a classic example.

If evidence is piling up, which it is not, then where is the result of your google search that supports the statement?

As you are making a claim with respect to reputable science how about using a search engine to find reputable science articles written by reputable scientists that support your statement?

What you posted is personal opinion. And the intimation that it is supported by serious science preposterous on its face and in my opinion demonstrates a lack of intellectual integrity.

Source: www.google.com
Search: "Climate Predictions" and "global warming"
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#16455 - 08/20/06 09:19 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
why should i Google it when the evidence has been posted here and in other threads on this site. all of which you ignored claiming that the either the company that owned the site was financed by the oil company (not always) or of the wrong political party (obviously from your post on that, if they had political leanings different than you they were wrong about everything) or something along these line, rather than discussing the subject of the articles themselves.

its not from laziness, because if i were lazy, id simply follow the pack and claim the earth is doomed. no, the fact that i found evidence is evidence of the fact that i have already done the search. why not get off you lazy duff and read some of the things other people post, rather than simply discard them, or discuss the finding rather than ignore it because you don't like the owners of the site.

it does not take much work to simply say "I'm not discussing this because the site owners are ....". show a little initiative and find something wrong with the evidence we show you. If you cant, don't try the arrogant "I'm so great i don't need to explain, your to lazy (or childish, ignorant, or just plain was taught by the wrong school as you used to say) to understand it" routine.

let me list some of the evidence that has recently been put out on this forum.

1) the IPCC has recently changed their act to put all (including natural) warming under the category of man made and only let people know in very fine print hidden away on the back page.

2) the year that AL Gore used as the book mark for the evidence that the great melt off, was the year that Mount Pinatubo erupted, dropping temperature world wide by .9 degrees. temperature in Greenland was 4 degrees colder than normal that year. of course there was less melt off that year than normal, but this is the book mark that Al Little, i mean Gore wants to use proof of global warming.

3) IPCC did not use the summaries that the scientist gave them, and none of the scientist that was consulted about it agree with the political motivated summery that IPCC came up with.

4) IPCC use the tree rings from northwest us to prove that there was global warming, instead of all the other evidence. tree rings do not show temperatures let alone what was going on in the rest of the world. other evidence shows that area had a different growing patterns than other areas of the world, but IPCC went only with these to show that the world was warmer during the little ice age and cooler during the global warming of the middle ages.

5) they have had to constantly juggle the readings to reconcile them with the models to prove that the global warming is still happening.

6) they recently discovered that the snow fall pattern of the last century was not as stable as the people that made the global warming scare claimed it to be. it varies way to much for them to say that there has been much if any change in the last few years.

7) I posted a link to a site that had a graph that showed that while the global temperature has gone up in the last century, it has also fallen, and there were more than one period of time during the last century that the temperature world wide was higher than it is now. It also showed that the temperature has fallen in the last 5 years.

I'm sure there was more, but these are part of what was there. Yet you still claim there is no evidence of rigging of the temperature for political power. what would it take for you to acknowledge that there is evidence of political motive for the global warming scare rather than actual evidence of it.
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#16456 - 08/20/06 10:45 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer asks:
"why should i Google it when the evidence has been posted here and in other threads on this site"

1) Because you don't want everyone else to think, as I do, that you are lazy.

2) Becaues you don't want everyone else to conclude, as I have, that you mask personal opinions in statements designed to make them seem to be something other than just your uninformed opinion.

3) Because you are incorrect. No one has ever posted links supporting your contention (you might note that one link to one scientist at one college is not a preponderence of the evidence).

4) Because by not doing so you undercut any credibility your statement might have had.

Need more? I've got a boat-load for you. ;-)
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#16457 - 08/21/06 11:09 AM Re: trouble for global warming fans
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
1) Because you don't want everyone else to think, as I do, that you are lazy.
you mean to lazy to post the links that i posted on the very first post? you mean as lazy as someone who does not even bother to read their own links?

Quote:
2) Because you don't want everyone else to conclude, as I have, that you mask personal opinions in statements designed to make them seem to be something other than just your uninformed opinion.
If you would bother to read any of the links that i provided in this and other threads, you would see that i have done some searching and have found evidence. Its easy to claim there is no evidence if you keep your eyes closed.

Quote:
3) Because you are incorrect. No one has ever posted links supporting your contention (you might note that one link to one scientist at one college is not a preponderence of the evidence).
how quickly you forget. how about RicS. remember him. you argue for him for weeks after i got here. don't know when he first started arguing with you, but i do remember him giving you several links that refuted your arguments. (note to any one that was not here but is interested: do a little research in this forum. set the filter to last year and search for threads da started about global warming. You ll find many that da started but found other people disagreeing with him. there are lots of links to sites refuting everything that da said.)

Quote:
4) Because by not doing so you undercut any credibility your statement might have had.

Need more? I've got a boat-load for you. ;-)
yes how about a real reason, one that does not have anything to do with your not reading links and you being too lazy to follow. do you really believe that anyone reads only this thread. the only way anyone would believe that diatribe is if they did not see any of the other threads with links in them. I'm not going to waste space duplicating all the other threads and links that have already been posted, some multiple times.
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#16458 - 08/21/06 04:11 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
If some part of my communication, above, was unclear then there is nothing more to add: So I won't. Conversation over!
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#16459 - 08/21/06 05:33 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
of course. since you cant win, why bother trying to learn. there are many links posted on many threads. the evidence is there. unlike you i dont make threads to duplicate other threads.

so sure. if you have nothing to prove that they evidence is wrong, then this part of this thread is over.
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the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#16460 - 08/21/06 06:05 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"since you cant win"

Is that how they practice science in Texas? As a team sport with a goalpost?

When's half-time.

It amazes me that you can be entirely rational when discussing non-science and as soon as it involves science you posture, pontificate, and refuse to support your statements. Why?

Purely rhetorical question. I have no intention of responding further in this thread so here's your chance to get in the last word as always.
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#16461 - 08/21/06 08:02 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
what amazes me that you act like you know everything, when at the same time, you cant even figure out what your own links say. Ive supported all of my arguments, and your reply are basically "i don't agree with that so its wrong". in case you don't realise it yet, i don't accept that kind of argument. i demand you back your arguments up or stop posting and I've noticed that you have stopped several times when I've done that. every time you have you make it look like you are the offended one. Is that how they cover their routs in Washington, by calling them a victory?
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#16462 - 08/22/06 03:37 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Quote:
Originally posted by dehammer:
What would it take for you to acknowledge that there is evidence of political motive for the global warming scare...
What would it take? Probably some evidence to acknowledge.

Can you explain the political motive for the Global Warming 'Scare'?

Evidence against:

1. Scientists have been warning about Global Warming for decades and governments are still either slow to catch on and way behind the science or still in denial. If there was something for political powers to gain from Global Warming then they would have seized upon it much sooner.

2. Generally, at the centre of the political process lies a desire to increase people's dependence upon the state. The Global Warming 'Scare' has the exact opposite effect. It drives people to become self dependent for energy by finding alternative renewable energy sources that are less likely to be monopolized by government and Big Business - and also less likely to generate massive tax revenues.

3. A response at governmental levels requires a significant expenditure and funding for green energy projects. Most governments try to avoid situations where they have to throw away money - and if Global warming was a politically motivated scare, then that is exactly what they would be doing.

There are many reasons why Global Warming is unlikely to be a politically motivated scare. Maybe you meant something else by your statement.

If not, what is your evidence? Convince me that you are not to be lumped in with the mindless conspiracy theorists who don't believe we put a man on the moon.

Blacknad.

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#16463 - 08/22/06 03:52 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Here's a lovely little quote from the UK Guardian paper:

"The old right has been on an arduous journey, with most finally converted to the truth universally acknowledged, except by flat-earthers: the world is warming at life-on-earth threatening speed. When the climate-deniers' case collapsed, they retreated to an ideological redoubt claiming global warming was a natural phenomenon, not amenable to man-made remedy. But that fortress crumbled too, and even George Bush, last of the deniers, conceded."

Apparently Bush wasn't the last.

Blacknad.

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#16464 - 08/22/06 05:24 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
Wolfman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Pago Pago, American Samoa
For this argument to end (finally) it will take a Landmark Event. Melting glaciers aren't dramatic enough to convince those who've bought into the "Natural Course of Events" school of thought. For years I've said it would be the sight of thousands of dead penguins. Picture that. Thousands of penguin carcasses on the 6:00 News. Water temp rises, Krill dies off. Fish die off. Penguins starve, face extinction. Massive Human effort to round up the remaining few to preserve in captivity. "Hey, maybe those Scaremongers were onto something".

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#16465 - 08/22/06 05:37 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
The problem, once again, is that politics has put itself squarely into a discussion where it is wholly inappropriate.

Whether global warming exists is apolitical

Whether humans are causing some or all of the affect is apolitical.

What we should do about it if it exists and if it is a problem ... that is political.

When Karl Rove and the rest of his anti-science crowd step out of the way we will make some progress.

There are a lot of reasons why political expediency is trying to maintain the status quo. What incentive does Saudi Arabia have to see a decrease in petroleum usage? How about Iran? Norway? Venezuela? Mexico? Kuwait? the UAE? Russia? etc. How about Exxon? BP? PetroMex?

Now against the power and influence of those governments and multi-billion dollar corporations are arrayed GreenPeace and a handful of other non-profits supporting themselves on donations.

That someone like dehammer can claim some sort of equality between these two groups is laughable. I think, in everyone's heart, they know we are heading for a brick wall at 75mph. They just don't want to acknowledge it just as they don't want to acknowledge the simple fact that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny won't save their moral souls.
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#16466 - 08/22/06 06:30 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
Wolfman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Pago Pago, American Samoa
I agree, the multi-nationals will have their way: Might Makes Right. Our only chance for long-term survival will be a total revision of thinking. It sure doesn't make matters any better when you have citizens who take satisfaction from trying to discredit those of us who ARE concerned.

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#16467 - 08/22/06 07:51 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
And I am continually amazed at the people, like dehammer, that buy the party line without ever considering the vested interests of those involved.

Corporate and government interests have billions on the line. The rest of us ... just our personal happiness.
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#16468 - 08/22/06 09:52 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
The problem, once again, is that politics has put itself squarely into a discussion where it is wholly inappropriate.

Whether global warming exists is apolitical

Whether humans are causing some or all of the affect is apolitical.

What we should do about it if it exists and if it is a problem ... that is political.

When Karl Rove and the rest of his anti-science crowd step out of the way we will make some progress.

There are a lot of reasons why political expediency is trying to maintain the status quo. What incentive does Saudi Arabia have to see a decrease in petroleum usage? How about Iran? Norway? Venezuela? Mexico? Kuwait? the UAE? Russia? etc. How about Exxon? BP? PetroMex?

Now against the power and influence of those governments and multi-billion dollar corporations are arrayed GreenPeace and a handful of other non-profits supporting themselves on donations.

That someone like dehammer can claim some sort of equality between these two groups is laughable. I think, in everyone's heart, they know we are heading for a brick wall at 75mph. They just don't want to acknowledge it just as they don't want to acknowledge the simple fact that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny won't save their moral souls.
get real. politics is about power. who has it and how does not. the global warming politicians like gore and IPCC have the power, and they want more. they want to control things like corporations and things which are not in their realm. how can they do this? simple by passing laws that force companies and such to give more power to the goverments. this give goverments more control over everything. how can you not see this? how can you not see whats wrong with this? the people who are behind the global warming scare are the same ones that were behind the global freeze scare and the ozone hole scare and things like that. the chemicals that they claimed cause the ozone hole have dropped considerable, but the ozone hole has not changed. it shrinks and grows, grows and shrinks. the amount of various chemicals in the hole change drastically, but it does not change the size of the hole.

the same was done with global warming /freezing. the tempature changes several degrees yet it does not really change anything. what does change, what did change with the ozone hole, is who has the power. it went from people to the goverment. that is the way it always does with these scares. are they people who do these studies doing the same as the ones that are paid by the oil companies, you bet your bippy. they are being paid by money raised by political hacks wanting more power. they cherry pick the data they use to make their side look like it has more info. by changing a few words in their report, the IPCC lumped solar caused global warming in with polution caused global warming and claimed it was all caused by man. they have basically rewritten history to make it look like there was no global warming before the industrial revolution. that means that the entire global warming from the entire history of earth is due to polution. that is completely wrong.

you bet your backside that its all politics as usual. you cant discuss global warming without it.
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#16469 - 08/22/06 09:58 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
And I am continually amazed at the people, like dehammer, that buy the party line without ever considering the vested interests of those involved.

Corporate and government interests have billions on the line. The rest of us ... just our personal happiness.
party line???????????????? what party claims that the goverment is responsible for the global warming scare. the oil companies claim there is none what so ever. either you have not even read a single thing i have every written or you are just being a yoyo. I have stated repeatedly that you cant go by either alone.

oil companies spend billions claiming there is no such animal as global warming. i say they are wrong.

goverment spends millions proven that global warming will destroy us all unless we give them total power. i say they are wrong.

show me the party line that agrees with that. I have stated time and time again that global warming is a factor of several cycles, largely of the sun, but also of the earth. Show me the party line that goes along that line.

you claim its the people that will benifit from the goverment taking all their control and choises, well open your eyes. YOU are the one that is blindly following the political party line.
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the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#16470 - 08/22/06 10:04 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
Eduardo Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 106
Loc: Guildford, UK
Quote:
the global warming politicians like gore and IPCC have the power, and they want more.
Newsflash: Bush is in power not Gore.

By your logic Bush must be the biggest global warming advocate on earth, I think we can all agree he is not.
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Resistance is futile. Capacitance is efficacious.
There are 10 types of people in the world... Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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