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#16431 - 08/16/06 06:31 AM trouble for global warming fans
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
it appears that the predictions of many on how bad things are going to get have a problem in the models

http://www.firstscience.com/SITE/ARTICLES/contrary.asp

it appears that the atmosphere is warming less than the earth, which is reverse for what it should be if polution is the primary cause of global warming. since these are people who are trying to claim that, i dont see any of them checking out how much more accurate their model would be if they included the suns effect on the tempature. after all, the sun warms the earth, which warms the air. Hmmm, that sound formilar. perhaps a reading of this link will show you where from.

heres another site that an give you a clue as to why the models are not as accurate as they should be.

http://www.john-daly.com/tar-2000/tar-2000.htm
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#16432 - 08/16/06 08:15 AM Re: trouble for global warming fans
Wolfman Offline
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Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Pago Pago, American Samoa
...the insinuation being that the Global Warming School of Thought is nothing more than a bunch of Chicken Littles?

Call me naive, but when it comes to trying to strike a balance with Nature I think we should err on the side of caution.

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#16433 - 08/16/06 08:29 AM Re: trouble for global warming fans
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
doesn't that sound a little bit arrogant. thinking that we as a species, are big enough to strike a balance with nature. the scaremongers claim that we are going to double the greenhouse effect with all the co2 we are pumping into the atmosphere. how is that possible when the co2 only contributes 2.5 percent of the greenhouse effect. water vapor contribute 88 percent. even if we double the co2 in the air, we would not be able to do 5 percent of the greenhouse effect. in mans entire existence we have not even increased the co2 by 10 percent. we are doing more damage to the temperature controls with asphalt and concrete than we are with the co2. weve done even more by the destruction of forest that the asphalt. yet do the scaremongers tell us to get rid of concrete and asphalt? Do they tell us to plant more trees. no, they say we have to get rid of factories and cars. You want to do your part in stiking a ballance with nature, plant trees. look for ways to cool the earth around your home. that will reduce the 'asphalt effect'.

id be a lot easier at worrying about the damage polution was doing if it was not so obvious that its more political in nature than reality.
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#16434 - 08/16/06 08:35 AM Re: trouble for global warming fans
Wolfman Offline
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Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Pago Pago, American Samoa
Arrogant, I don't think so. Asking too much, probably. But if Termites can live in harmony with Nature why can't we? We can't because we don't even try. As long as we are "guided" by the Military-Industrial Complex, we never will either.

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#16435 - 08/16/06 11:25 AM Re: trouble for global warming fans
dehammer Offline
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Posts: 1089
sure. lets go back to the caves. anything else requires industries. do you want to do without heat in the winter. how about air conditioning in the summer. how about safe food. how about medicines. all of these require industries.

OK, so if you don't want to give up industries, how about letting the communists take control over them, like they did in Russia or North Korea. did you know that North Korea is one of the shining stars of communism and its got the worse poverty level of any semi industrial country in the world. the only reason were not hailing the communist regime is that we in America have the strongest military in the world. its not the biggest, its not the fastest, its the strongest. If your an American, its the reason that no one comes here and dictates to you what food you will eat, what shoes you will wear, and what grade school you will stop at. very few would be allowed the time to graduate from high school as it would not be necessary. few other countries would boast better. why do we not. because we have a military-industrial complex that keeps us from having to allow someone that has no idea what our country is like telling us what to raise and where to go.

people complain about how the population will soon reach 9 billion. without that military-industrial complex the world population would have peaked at about 3 billion with half of them starving and only about 1 million having anything worth having because they were the ones in control over the industries. without any industries at all, the world population would be limited to less than one billion and most of them would have a life span of about 40 years or less. much of that would be spent suffering from one form of disease or another. please pray tell, how would we be better off.
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#16436 - 08/16/06 10:32 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
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So that's it for you dehammer. Life is a simple Boolean choice between black and white, good and bad, left or right.

We can't have efficient industries ... we either have what we have now or move to the caves.

We either have what we have now or we all submit to Communist or Fascist dictatorship and presumably giving our daughters to Kim Il Sung.

Good thing you weren't offering up opinions during the dark ages or born in Cambodia.
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#16437 - 08/17/06 07:40 AM Re: trouble for global warming fans
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
show me an alternative way of creating the things we want without industrial complex and ill follow it if its half as good.

show me a way of not having to Sieg Heil hitler without military (hint, America tried that before pearl harbor as did England before the invasion of France) and ill accept that we don't need military.

efficent industrial complex is still a industrial complex. a small efficent military is still part of the military complex. improvements can be made to them but that does not mean that they are not still there.
ive yet to see a way for our world to exist without either. they maybe an evil, but it appears that they are a necissary evil. show me a realistic alternative and you just might find yourself at the head of a new religion. perhaps the invisible purple rhinocerios can lead the way.
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#16438 - 08/17/06 01:05 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
John M Reynolds Offline
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Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 174
Loc: Canada
Sorry Dehammer, but I must come to DA Morgan's defense. The problem is that the Wolfman was ambiguous in his post:

Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfman:
Arrogant, I don't think so. Asking too much, probably. But if Termites can live in harmony with Nature why can't we? We can't because we don't even try. As long as we are "guided" by the Military-Industrial Complex, we never will either.
Why is guided in quotes? What is he trying to say without actually writing out the words? Is he insinuating that we are lead instead of guided by the Military-Industrial Complex? Does he assume that termites, as well as other creatures of this planet, do not fight amongst themselves?

He did not come right out and say that we must get rid of the Military-Industrial Complex, but that we must stop being "guided" by it. If that is what he meant, then I like your post, but we would need clarification of Wolfman's sparse post. Perhaps he could at least provide a link to an article or site that discusses how were are "guided" by the Military-Industrial Complex. Until then, there is not much use in discussing his post. Too many assumptions are needed.

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#16439 - 08/17/06 02:10 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
considering that the discussion was about how the scaremongers are trying to claim that the pollution from industrial complex are causing global warming when the evidence does not support that, that there is even evidence that global warming may not in fact exist AND considering that the next post is the one that he is insinuating that the military-industrial complex is leading the way to disaster, i would have to surmise that he is in fact coming in on the side that the m-i-c is and evil force destroying the world and must be removed. how else can we "live in harmony with nature". how can we live in harmony with nature with coal plants poring tons of co2 into the air or nuclear power plants producing radioactive waste or cars putting tons of hydrocarbons into the atmosphere. the answer is obvious. we cant. so either we get rid of all the unnatural things like cars and houses made of anything but wood and dirt, and get rid of ac and things like that, or we keep those things and do our best to learn to live closer to nature. We do things like find a way to use bio fuels and wind power and things like that. we do things like use the least amount of electricity as we can, like finding the most fuel efficient cars, and work towards making non fossil fueled cars. those things require that we have a m-i-c, at least part of which is currently working towards these goals. trying to claim that they are leading us is misleading as they IS us (phrasing used for emphasis).

im not saying we need to do these things because of global warming (mainly because im not longer sure it even exist). im saying do them because its better for the inhabatants of this world.
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#16440 - 08/17/06 04:53 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer asks:
"show me an alternative way of creating the things we want without industrial complex and ill follow it if its half as good."

Visit Norway, or Sweden, or quite a few other first-world countries. One of the problems some of us in this country have with the Texas mentality is the "Not invented here" syndrome. This may come as a shock to you but the US is not number one, numero uno, in many many areas of endeavour. We are not the healthiest people on the planet. Nor the happiest. This list of disciplines where our ego is not matched by reality is rather long.
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#16441 - 08/17/06 06:44 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
Wolfman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Pago Pago, American Samoa
DA, add Canada and Australia to that list, they're doing alright.
Dehammer closes by suggesting that we develop Industries for the betterment of the inhabitants of this world. If they could talk, I'm sure that Orangutans, for example, would beg to differ. Oh, were you referring exclusively to the Human inhabitants? Oh, short term, pumping poison into the atmosphere and the oceans and the soil will surely not kill us. Long term is another story. Call me a wack-o (or a Scaremonger) but I think of the Earth as a closed system. Compare it to an aquarium. You can strike a balance or you can pollute it to a point where evrything but insignificant life forms can live.

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#16442 - 08/17/06 08:40 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
And New Zealand and Denmark and a lot of other places I could name.

What amazes me about dehammer's answers is that the truth is current industries ONLY benefit officers and stockholders. That is what the law requires. The law requires that "shareholder value" is maximized.

Society MAY benefit with the increase in stockholder value but the two are mutually exclusive. It also may not benefit. And right now our laws and business ethics are all based on short-term benefits.

One one at Exxon is thinking 300 years into the future. From what I understand not more than 30 years. I would like to think that the children in K-12 schools will grow up in a world in which their governments did not stick them with the tab and pollution from past short-sighted policies. Nor is a policy based on ... well we can do it but we'd better bomb other countries back into the stone age if they do it too ... a winning strategy. What happens when there are as many cars in China, per capita, as there are in the US? I think the answer is remarkably simple to ferret out.

The Texas mentality is *** think personally act personally *** and it won't work long term. There is not enough room in the solar system for a boatload of cowboys.
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#16443 - 08/18/06 04:07 AM Re: trouble for global warming fans
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
This may come as a shock to you but the US is not number one, numero uno, in many many areas of endeavour. We are not the healthiest people on the planet. Nor the happiest. This list of disciplines where our ego is not matched by reality is rather long.
show me where i said everything was made in the usa or had been invented here.
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#16444 - 08/18/06 04:18 AM Re: trouble for global warming fans
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfman:
DA, add Canada and Australia to that list, they're doing alright.
Dehammer closes by suggesting that we develop Industries for the betterment of the inhabitants of this world. If they could talk, I'm sure that Orangutans, for example, would beg to differ. Oh, were you referring exclusively to the Human inhabitants? Oh, short term, pumping poison into the atmosphere and the oceans and the soil will surely not kill us. Long term is another story. Call me a wack-o (or a Scaremonger) but I think of the Earth as a closed system. Compare it to an aquarium. You can strike a balance or you can pollute it to a point where evrything but insignificant life forms can live.
please pray tell, what kind of polution does wind mills produce. what kind of hydorcarbons does electric cars produce, esp if they are being powered by solar energy. how would using these harm Orangutans. ballance does not demand getting rid of the m-i-c. it demands finding better ways of doing things we do now.

sorry but your idea of the earth being a closed system is way off. we get a lot of energy from the sun which is not in our earth. we also lose a lot of that energy to space. finding ways of using that energy would make thing better for humans, Orangutans, fish, birds and more. focusing on man only created global warming when it does not exist and things like that take away from the things that are really important. things like finding better ways to get around that dont hurt fish and birds. things like finding ways of making things work better, or to get rid of real problems like the o2 depleated areas of the gulf of mexico caused by fertilizers. instead of punishing industries for causing global warming when they are doing no such thing, we should be giving them incentives to find better ways to do those things that are harmful.
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#16445 - 08/18/06 04:38 AM Re: trouble for global warming fans
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
What amazes me about dehammer's answers is that the truth is current industries ONLY benefit officers and stockholders. That is what the law requires. The law requires that "shareholder value" is maximized.
actually I'm aware of this stupidity.

Quote:
Society MAY benefit with the increase in stockholder value but the two are mutually exclusive. It also may not benefit. And right now our laws and business ethics are all based on short-term benefits.
actually they are not mutually exclusive. there are many companies that have found ways of making the compatible. an example is an electric company that gets a lot of its energy from windmills. this is not the best things for stockholders outright. but thanks to some lobbying from several of the companies, laws were made which allows the extra cost of those wind mills to be tax deductible, this means that those companies can make more money from the windmills than they can from coal. this is better for their stock holders. this means its both in compliance with the laws telling them to do things maximize the stockholders incomes, and the environments needs. they are the part of the group that lobbied for this change in the tax laws. why cant other companies do this. the answer is simple. its the people that are involved that are the problems, not the mic. the problem is individuals.

Quote:
One one at Exxon is thinking 300 years into the future. From what I understand not more than 30 years. I would like to think that the children in K-12 schools will grow up in a world in which their governments did not stick them with the tab and pollution from past short-sighted policies. Nor is a policy based on ... well we can do it but we'd better bomb other countries back into the stone age if they do it too ... a winning strategy. What happens when there are as many cars in China, per capita, as there are in the US? I think the answer is remarkably simple to ferret out.
actually that depends on what kind of cars they are. if they are the type we have now, it could be trouble, but then again, we'd run our of gas a lot faster, and would be forced to change sooner.

on the other hand if they are electric cars and there is enough green energy to run them, then it will not be near the problem you insinuate it is.

if you don't want the grandchildren to have to pay the bills for this, why not get off your duff and do something about it. there are tons of groups working on getting the laws changed, join them. otherwise your just part of the problem.

Quote:
The Texas mentality is *** think personally act personally *** and it won't work long term. There is not enough room in the solar system for a boatload of cowboys.
once more your lack of understanding of reality is extremely showing. there are more people with that attitude in the northwest than there are in Texas. there are places in Texas that have already begun working on using hogs manure (we have a lot of hog farms in some parts of the country) to produce gas to produce electricity. since the gas is being produce by natural processes that start with co2 in the air, and end with co2 in the air, there is no additional pollutions created. why do they do this? simple, the owners of the hog farmers spotted a possibly new source of revenue. between tax breaks and things like that, this is very good for the stock holders. if you want to change industry to a more green one, this is a good way to do it. btb one of the reasons they did this is a little known law in texas that gives industries breaks for doing thing like this. does the state of washington have such laws?
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#16446 - 08/18/06 01:16 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
John M Reynolds Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 174
Loc: Canada
What is needed is a grass roots effort. Change peoples' minds toward going green and the govenrmnet policies will follow. With more people buying green, less non-green products will be made as demand decreases. The key is to change people's minds and make them aware of what companies contribute to pollution.

And who are the stock holders? At least in Canada, much of our retirement plans (rrsp's) are all based on mutual funds. I don't know how much of the population has pension plans or rrsp's or resp's (education), but most people I know do. When corporations do well, that bodes well for our future and for seniors on a fixed income.

The policies are needed for government controlled industries. In Canada, that would include Hydro. At a minimum, it would be nice to have my Ontario Government upgrade the coal fired plants to high efficiency ones as they ramp up the creation of more green energy like windmills. Actually, it is the USA that is much further ahead as compared to Canada when it comes to upgrading infrastructure for the betterment of nature.

John M Reynolds

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#16447 - 08/18/06 09:01 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
actually there is a grass roots effort, but it needs more support. there is also some govermental groups that are doing the same (at least here in the us).
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#16448 - 08/18/06 09:17 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
Wolfman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Pago Pago, American Samoa
Too little, too late, guys. As bizzarre as it sounds, what the Environment really needs is a few more Ted Kaczynski's. A lot more.

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#16449 - 08/18/06 09:33 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
how is it too late? because the al gore said it was almost too late? because the scaremongers claim that its too late? If you dig into their evidence, there is too many questions that they are not willing to answer. I personally have begun to doubt if there ever was a global warming at all, let alone one of mans makings. it (to me atleast) appears that all the hoopla is about cycles that are on the upside at this point, rather than an acutally increase in tempature globally.

the reason i believe we should go green, is that the polution is harming the inhabatants of this planet. everything from making children sick to cutting short a some older folks life, to killing off some species of animals. its never to late to reduce the damage we are doing to the inhabitants of this world.
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the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#16450 - 08/18/06 09:40 PM Re: trouble for global warming fans
Wolfman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Pago Pago, American Samoa
Der Hammer -
Too late in the sense that Humanity is too set in its ways to make wholesale changes for the sake of the Environment.
When I was a kid a recall watching a documentary from China showing how they had plans to "filter" emmissions through water. The resulting sludge was to be used in the Construction Industry as fill material. It appears that they have abandoned that philosophy, and are just pumping the smoke into the Atmosphere.
Pollution is a cumulative thing - oh, here we go again...

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