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#15761 - 10/27/06 02:00 PM 360 million year old lamprey fossil
soilguy Offline
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Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
Scientists find lamprey a 'living fossil'
360 million-year-old fish hasn't evolved much
October 26, 2006

Scientists from the University of Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa, and the University of Chicago have uncovered a remarkably well-preserved fossil lamprey from the Devonian period that reveals today's lampreys as "living fossils" since they have remained largely unaltered for 360 million years.

For the rest of the news release, see:
http://www.uchospitals.edu/news/2006/20061026-lamprey.html
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#15762 - 10/27/06 03:56 PM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
samwik Offline
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Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
DA challenged, "Name one physical thing in the universe that is not evolving."

Well there ya go, something that hasn't evolved.* smile smile

*"No matter what happens, someone, somewhere, is going to take it too seriously."

Thanks soilguy.

Balky, but up for now,
~samwik
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Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#15763 - 10/27/06 07:25 PM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
soilguy Offline
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Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
Well, they don't say it hasn't evolved, but it hasn't evolved MUCH.

Amazing though, that it hit on such a successful design. Also pretty amazing that it fossilized.
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#15764 - 10/27/06 09:59 PM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
samwik Offline
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Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
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Yes, thanks; this was mainly for DA's benefit and meant only as a joke (hence your co-opted tagline) & smile 's. It's supposed to be in reference to his much appreciated post last night over on God & Science (10/27, 12:54 AM). ...hard to get the tone just right by typing, but I made it sound serious enough thinking trilo might byte.

Later smile
~samwik
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#15765 - 10/27/06 10:01 PM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
trilobyte Offline
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Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 179
Actually these living fossils present quite a challenge to evolutionism.

need an example why?

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#15766 - 10/27/06 10:27 PM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
OK trilobyte. Why?

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#15767 - 10/28/06 08:14 PM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Evolutionism is not a word. Make him define it or stop feeding the troll.
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#15768 - 10/29/06 12:58 AM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
"Actually these living fossils present quite a challenge to evolutionism."

Such challenges are imaginary. They exist only in the minds of those who fail to understand the theory.

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#15769 - 10/29/06 03:48 AM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
trilobyte Offline
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Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 179
It's funny how the evos play both sides of the coin.

When they need more mutations than time permits....such as the human chimps split...mutations occur all over the place in just the right places....but when you present a living fossil....NO MUTATIONS that produce morphological changes in 360 MILLION YEARS.

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#15770 - 10/29/06 06:13 AM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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"When they need more mutations than time permits....such as the human chimps split...mutations occur all over the place in just the right places....but when you present a living fossil....NO MUTATIONS that produce morphological changes in 360 MILLION YEARS."

If you understand how evolution actually works, that's not a problem, Paul.

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#15771 - 10/29/06 06:15 AM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
Rusty Rockets Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 175
"'This fossil changes how we look at lampreys today,' said Coates, associate professor of organismal biology and anatomy. 'They're very ancient, very primitive animals, yet with highly specialized feeding habits.'

It reveals that the anatomical evolution of lampreys is more conservative than scientists thought, Coates added. Although they've gotten slightly longer, they specialized early and successfully and thus appeared to have stayed much the same for the past 360 million years."

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#15772 - 10/29/06 02:05 PM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
soilguy Offline
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Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
Trilobyte:

What, in the theory of evolution, demands that successful creatures change?

(Hint: nothing at all.)
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#15773 - 10/29/06 05:43 PM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
trilobyte Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 179
Quote:

If you understand how evolution actually works, that's not a problem, Paul. [/QB]
Unfortunatly YOU don't even know how your precious "theory" of evolutionism works.

I've asked several questions...and you fail to present answers.

How do mutations add up? No answer.
The chimp human split...once again no answer.
echo-location "evolution"..assummed with no model to allow for it to develope.

and the topics go on.

Your only answer is something like....You wouldn't understand or somethign similar to your responce presented above.

I kinda feel like I'm casting pearls before the swine when dealing with guys like you a Morgan.

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#15774 - 10/29/06 05:50 PM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
trilobyte Offline
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Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 179
Living fossils such as the Coelacanth, Tuatara, Ginko tree, Wollemi Pine, Crocodiles and Horseshoe crabs...and now your 360 MY old lampreys... do an enormous amount of damage to the evolutionary theories. These currently living species appear almost identical to their fossil counterparts. The question is, how did these ?living fossils?...animals and plants ...survive the many millions upon millions of years with virtually no change? Perhaps they could last a few hundred thousand years unchanged, but according to evolutionary theories certainly not millions upon millions of years.

Some evolutionist will argue that these species found a special ?ecological niche? and despite the enourmous amount of mutations that they say would have occurred naturally in those millions upon millions of years they were some how not exposed to the pressures presented by normal evolutionary change.

According to the old earth uniformitarian theory the whole world was upset in an iridium nightmare when a big time major world wide ecological ?niche? changing event happened after a meteorite slammed into the earth, ...but, some how, species such as the Coelacanth, Tuatara, Ginko tree, Wollemi Pine, Crocodiles and Horseshoe crabs apparently weren't effected at all by the catastrophic event.
Despite this catastrophic event it is amazing that the evolutionist still claim that these living fossils conformed to their very own particular ecological niche. Some how they were able to pass through this world wide niche changing catastrophic event at the K/T boundary. It was at this time, 65 million years ago, that the evolutionist claim that 75% or so of all species from a wide range of taxonomic groupings on the land, in the skies and under the seas were wiped out forever.
It?s interesting to note that each of the above mentioned living fossils are claimed to have pre-dated this catastrophic event by tens of million years with virtually no change prior to or after the catastrophic event.

Certainly after an event such as the supposed mass extinction mentioned above, the changed environment, disappearing food chains on land and in the seas, tsunamis crashing into continents, fire scorched landscapes, sun blocked ?winters? and their temperature changes would have caused the tempo of evolution to increase all over the surface of the globe, in the air and under the seas. This increased evolutionary tempo would have allowed for the selection of new beneficial mutations while scrambling to create new dramatically varied species that thrived in the new environmental biomes created on the land, in the air and under the seas.

Despite the argument that time coupled with mutations, and the normal pressures of evolutionary change should have been more than enough to introduce major morphological change into the living fossils. Considering the above, the event surrounding the K/T boundary and the massive change to the earth and the insignificant changes to the Coelacanth, Tuatara, Ginko tree, Wollemi Pine, Crocodiles and Horseshoe crabs ...and now your 360 MY old lampreys... make the likelihood of living fossils impossible and unfounded.

To perplex the issue even more, besides the mutational/natural selective changes mentioned above that should have occurred during the last 65 million years there is yet another mechanism that the evolutionist claim introduces major morphological changes into animals. This mechanism is Genetic Drift. Apparently in the last 65 + million years this process also produced no significant change where according to their theories a considerable change should have occurred to the Coelacanth, Tuatara, Ginko tree, Wollemi Pine, Crocodiles and Horseshoe crabs...and now your 360 MY old lampreys... as their niches were upset.

The evolutionist say that change does happen. Shortly after the catastrophic event that supposably happened 65 million years ago at the Cretaceous/Tertiary boundary, in a period of less than 50 million years a four legged wolf like animal Andrewsarchus (or what ever the latest evolution scenario is) is claimed to have evolved into a sleek sea creature. In this time period Andrewsarchus lost its legs as they turned into flippers, developed a spout with a new breathing system that contained special valves for shutting the nostrils, echo location system with a transmitter and receiver, blubber and other whale like features.....all while the living fossil Crocodile watched from the swamp as the Tuatara peeped his head out of his borrow under the shade of a the Ginko tree and Wollemi Pine. Meanwhile, the Horseshoe crabs scurried along the bay floors and the Coelacanth...and now your 360 MY old lampreys... swam by in the oceans and didn't change outside of their normal genetic variations ...despite the morphological mutations and genetic drift that would have occurred over the millions upon millions of years as the species felt the massive environmental change to the fauna in it?s biome at the Cretaceous/Tertiary boundary that the evolutionist tell us happened 15 million years prior.

The existence of the Coelacanth, Tuatara, Ginko tree, Wollemi Pine, Crocodiles and Horseshoe crabs...and now your 360 MY old lampreys... are great example of creation. It shows that animals reproduce after their ?kind? and don?t really change in the fashion in which the evolutionist claim. It seem as if the DNA and genetic code for the Coelacanth, Tuatara, Ginko tree, Crocodiles and Horseshoe crabs...and now your 360 MY old lampreys... has been resistant to change through out it?s history....as expected.

It is just one more indication that scientist should view the geological column and the animals trapped in the fossil record as contemporanious rather than seperated by long time frames.

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#15775 - 10/29/06 07:44 PM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
TB wrote:
"It shows that animals reproduce after their ?kind? and don?t really change in the fashion in which the evolutionist claim. It seem as if the DNA and genetic code for the Coelacanth, Tuatara, Ginko tree, Crocodiles and Horseshoe crabs...and now your 360 MY old lampreys... has been resistant to change through out it?s history....as expected."

Is your DNA different from your mothers?
Is your DNA different from your neightbors?
Is your DNA different from mine?

Take hyour "resistance to change" and put it where it belongs ... in the troll cave.

DNA changes exactly and precisely as predicted by the theory of evolution as understood by people who apply synapses to the issue.

If you don't understand it get an MRI.
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#15776 - 10/29/06 10:55 PM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
eternauta Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 16
Loc: BC, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by trilobyte:


It is just one more indication that scientist should view the geological column and the animals trapped in the fossil record as contemporanious rather than seperated by long time frames.
I'm curious. In your view, have all living species (or "kinds" or whatever) been created simultaneously?
I'm new in the forum and still don't know everyones ideas.
Thanks
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#15777 - 10/30/06 12:18 AM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
' do an enormous amount of damage to the evolutionary theories'

No it doesn't. First, these things do change. They're not exactly the same species. Second, there's nothing in evolution that says that species have to die off. Third, there are many species that didn't die off after the asteriod hit. And finally it's still not entirely certain that the asteroid alone is what killed the dinosaurs.

Finally, this is a science board, not a religious board. The preconceptions mandated by your cult are irrelevant.

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#15778 - 10/30/06 12:22 AM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
trilobyte Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 179
TheFallibleFiend said:Finally, this is a science board, not a religious board.

LOL, I just posted several SCIENTIFIC reasons why living fossils dismantle the RELIGION of evolutionISM....and that is your reply?

I think I just casted more pearls before swine.

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#15779 - 10/30/06 12:30 AM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
trilobyte Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 179
Quote:
I'm curious. In your view, have all living species (or "kinds" or whatever) been created simultaneously?
I'm new in the forum and still don't know everyones ideas.
Thanks [/QB]
Kinds do not equal species. The closest comparism would be something like genera/family.

The original species that represented the kinds were created with in a few days of each other. If you read Genesis you'll be able to see what days certain animals were created on.

The flood destroyed a lot of species..but preserved the kinds that they represented.
After the world wide flood speciation would have grown and have been facilitated at an exponential rate due to the changing characteristics of the enviroment coupled with the also changing physical conditions of their surroundings after the flood. Currently things are a bit more settled and the world wide niches are not changing at the same rate which led to the rapid speciation.

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#15780 - 10/30/06 12:31 AM Re: 360 million year old lamprey fossil
samwik Offline
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Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
trilobyte, did you look into that "mixing up" of the number of base pairs vs. number of genes?
re: my post

posted October 25, 2006 05:45 PM on Fossils
Hiya trilobyte:
Re: the deleted thread about the human-chimp split. I don't know if you ever got to see my answer about your confusion between base pairs and genes. I think that is why the math didn't work out. There are thousands (even up to hundreds of thousands) of base pairs for a particular gene. So I think the math does about add up. Although it should, since it was through the math that they extrapolated back to determine the ~6Mya dates for the split.

I hope you get a chance to comment on my G&s, "facts" thread. I know it's not a technical matter like these threads of yours; but if you're up for a bit of philosophy and epistemology, I'd sure appreciate your take on the discussion.

Thanks, & still hopeful,
~samwik
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Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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