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In another thread DA Morgan presented us with the following insight: First off no boat is capable of holding two-each, one male and one female of all of the non-oceanic lifeforms on the planet ... not even the largest aircraft carrier ever built. But is that true? Does DA Morgan understand that "kinds" are not species? Does DA Morgan understand that there was a need for only about 16,000 animals to have been on board the ark? The following is a list from Noahs Ark A feasibilty Study Number of animals genus (Male & Female) present from each order-class on the ark. Passeriformes 2,236 Squamata 1,938 Rodentia 1,746 Artiodactyla 1,144 Carnivora 696 Therapsida 508 Marsupialia 468 Perrissodactyla 436 Chiroptera 412 Primates 412 Insectivora 404 Saurischia 390 Gruiformes 280 Ornithischia 278 Apodiformes 276 Notoungulata 252 Edentata 250 Charadriiformes 208 Condylartha 198 Galliformes 176 Falconiformes 170 Psittaciformes 164 Captorhinida 152 Thecodontia 144 Piciformes 128 (add remaining 61 land-vertebrate orders 15,754 Reference Noahs Ark a Feasibility Study page 11 John Woodmorappe If DA Morgan would do the math DA Morgan would see there is plenty of room on the ark for both the food and the animals. OOPs, almost forgot...DA Morgan also asked why the T-Rex didn't eat the sheep. Ever hear of a cage? You know, put T-Rex in one cage and the sheep in another. Pretty simple solution.
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Trilobyte wrote: "But is that true? Does DA Morgan understand that "kinds" are not species?"
No I don't since biological classification didn't exist then. But lets assume you are correct.
A cage for the T Rex? A cage for the Brontosaurus? Excuse me while I catch my breath.
Noah was in Mesopotamia. How did he collect the North American bison? And the Australian Koala bears? And the Indonesian Orangutans? And the Pacific Island dodo birds?
Oh I know ... yet another miracle.
Precisely how long does it take one family, without the benefit of modern equipment, to visit 7 continents, to identify, collect, and cage, 15,754 beasts of any description.
Oh I know ... yet another miracle.
DA Morgan
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So you don't believe in evolution, yet you think millions of species evolved from a few thousand "kinds" in 4,000 years? With mutation rates moving at such break-neck speeds, how come we don't see evolution occurring before our eyes? Did those mutation rates suddenly slow down?
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." --S. Lewis
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Soilguy. Of course we do "see evolution occurring before our eyes". It's just that many people refuse to look at it.
Triloyte. So all 412 modern primate genera evolved from just one "kind" on Noah's ark? I presume you accept that humans spring from within that kind. Anyway, why did you feel it necessary to start another thread? Surely the Gilgamesh thread was the place for this information.
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Originally posted by DA Morgan: Trilobyte wrote: "But is that true? Does DA Morgan understand that "kinds" are not species?"
No I don't since biological classification didn't exist then. But lets assume you are correct.
Why would that matter?
A cage for the T Rex? A cage for the Brontosaurus? Excuse me while I catch my breath.
For starters no one said that the "Brontosaurus" was on the ark. The "Brontosaurus" was a member of a KIND of dinosaurs. A represenative of that particular dino-kind could have easily been selected rather than the "Brontosaurus". Still, if the "Brontosaurus" was selected to be a represenative of that particular kind on the ark, a juvenile "Brontosaurus" would more than likely have been choosen. Much much smaller.
Noah was in Mesopotamia.
We have no idea where Noah was. How did he collect the North American bison? And the Australian Koala bears? And the Indonesian Orangutans? And the Pacific Island dodo birds?
Noah had 100 years to have the animals collected (provided God didn't send them to him).
Remember Pangea? Prior to the flood there was not 7 continents
Oh I know ... yet another miracle.
Perhaps
Precisely how long does it take one family, without the benefit of modern equipment, to visit 7 continents, to identify, collect, and cage, 15,754 beasts of any description.
As mentioned above, Noah had over 100 years and at that time there were not 7 continents.
Oh I know ... yet another miracle.
Once again, perhaps. The bible tells us God sent them. Still Noah would have had plenty of time to collect or even have them collected for him.
I trust you stand corrected.
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Originally posted by soilguy: So you don't believe in evolution, yet you think millions of species evolved from a few thousand "kinds" in 4,000 years? With mutation rates moving at such break-neck speeds, how come we don't see evolution occurring before our eyes? Did those mutation rates suddenly slow down? The speciation would have grown and have been facilitated at an exponential rate due to the changing characteristics of the enviroment coupled with the also changing physical conditions of their surroundings. Currently things are a bit more settled and the world wide niches are not changing at the same rate which led to the rapid speciation. But once again let me point out....no mutations were required.
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Originally posted by terrytnewzealand: Soilguy. Of course we do "see evolution occurring before our eyes". It's just that many people refuse to look at it.
Triloyte. So all 412 modern primate genera evolved from just one "kind" on Noah's ark? I presume you accept that humans spring from within that kind. Anyway, why did you feel it necessary to start another thread? Surely the Gilgamesh thread was the place for this information. Actually 206. Hmans and primates are not the same kind. As to this thread...it's not about Gilgamesh. It's about life on the ark.
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Surely Trilobyte, if you believe that all ducks, geese and swans, for example, descend fron a single ancestor on Noah's ark you have no trouble with the idea humans and apes descend from a common ancestor. Your "kinds" are not the same as "genera". Scientists have a great deal of trouble deciding where to place the boundaries between genera in some groups of species. I could post some examples from dabbling ducks if I thought for a moment you'd read them. Surely this problem wouldn't exist if your "kinds" were as distinct as you imagine them to be.
As to the single continent Pangea. That was about 250 million years ago. But how do you account for the fact the Pangea was formed from the combination of previously existing land masses. An earlier gigantic flood perhaps?
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Trilobyte. We seem to be posting at the same time. You said: "But once again let me point out....no mutations were required." But if there were only two of each kind the maximum number of variations for each gene in four. This is surely not enough to give rise to the reqired number of species in each geneus. Mutations are required.
You also wrote: "As to this thread...it's not about Gilgamesh. It's about life on the ark." I got the impression from the Gilgamesh post that most of us regarded them as deriving from the same event.
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terrytnewzealand, who says ducks, geese and swans are all the same kind?
SWAN GENERA and SPECIES: C. cygnus C. buccinator C. columbianus C. bewickii C. atratus C. melancoryphus C. olor C. sumnerensis Coscoroba Reichenbach 1853 C. coscoroba
DUCK SUBFAMILIES: Dendrocygninae Oxyurinae Anatinae Merginae
GOOSE GENERA: Anser Branta Chen Cereopsis Cnemiornis
....kinds are kinda like genera..but not quite.
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terrytnewzealand posted "The maxium number of gene variation is four"
I don't see it quite like that. For example, if the lions were selected from the cat kind you might have a point.
But, but who said two lions represented the cat kind?
Perhaps a lion like and a tiger like animal represented the cat kind...they both can breed together with all kinds of traits.
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Trilobyte you are positively breathtaking in the scope of your ability to create explanations.
The problem here is that your explanations conflict directly with those of the Jewish a Christian and Islamic faiths whose religious texts are the source of your inspiration.
Why aren't you teaching in a school of divinity. There are so many rabbi's, bishops, cardinals, priests, ministers, and imams who must feel cheated not understanding how god works.
Then on the other hand you seem perfectly comfortable with the word "perhaps" so "perhaps" you are in desparate need of adult guidance. Might I suggest you seek out an adult who can help you get past your Sunday school coloring book explanations.
DA Morgan
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PS: Trilobyte ... precisely how is it that the koala bears got back to Australia.
Please quote the biblical passage on which you base your answer.
ROFLOL!
DA Morgan
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How did the koala bears got back to Australia?
For starters. if they were actually on the ark as your strawman suggest...they might have been taken.
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"For starters. if they were actually on the ark as your strawman suggest...they might have been taken."
Yea, they probably hopped on greyhound bound straight for Botany Bay.
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Torres Strait land bridge.
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I agree with Dan.
Whatever way you cut it, either this was a miraculous event with the miracle being not only the coming of the rains but also the gathering of the animals and their survival and redistribution - or it simply never happened. (I know which one Dan chooses).
It seems pointless to argue the feasibility of this one, or attempt to give it any basis in science. And why would you - either we believe in a God who is big enough to do it or we don't. Why employ psuedo-science to make it more reasonable - when in fact it is unreasonable on every single level?
THE STORY OF THE ARK IS IMPOSSIBLE ON EVERY LEVEL UNLESS A DIVINE CHARACTER MADE IT HAPPEN.
Blacknad.
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One could also say the EVOLUTION IS IMPOSSIBLE ON EVERY LEVEL UNLESS A DIVINE CHARACTER MADE IT HAPPEN.
Then again, scripture clearly tells us that God didn't use evolution.
But still, I'm waiting to hear why the ark is impossible on every level. So far the questions have been answered.
Got any more?
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Originally posted by trilobyte: Originally posted by soilguy: So you don't believe in evolution, yet you think millions of species evolved from a few thousand "kinds" in 4,000 years? With mutation rates moving at such break-neck speeds, how come we don't see evolution occurring before our eyes? Did those mutation rates suddenly slow down? The speciation would have grown and have been facilitated at an exponential rate due to the changing characteristics of the enviroment coupled with the also changing physical conditions of their surroundings. Currently things are a bit more settled and the world wide niches are not changing at the same rate which led to the rapid speciation.
But once again let me point out....no mutations were required. How much variation can there be in the gene pool of a population of two? To make it a little more simple, consider a single gene in a population of two individuals. What is the maximum number of different alleles that can exist in that population? Answer that question for yourself, and you will have to reconsider your "no mutations required," statement.
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That question was addressed 10 post ago.
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