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#15477 10/01/06 12:36 PM
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I've noticed a trend on this forum.

When the evo-minded get stuck, they run from the answer by typically replying with.....you don't understand the subject, so why should I explain it to you. OR, go visit a University library.

But the bottom line is that the evos don't really understand how their own theory works.

They insist that mutations add up...but so far have never demonstrated a method to accomplish this. Of course there will be those that claimed they have answered the question on this forum, inwhich I will respond back with...WHERE?...then the ad-homs begin.

Still, I present the very serious question....How do mutations (or any other method of channge) have the ability to occur again and again in just the right spot as to add to a previous change?

Of course some of the evos will reply back with...mutations do occur. Agreed, BUT, how do they add up? Considering that very very few according to you evos are beneficial, that is add to the fitness of the animal AND considering all the billions of places for a mutation to occur....Just how do they add up?

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#15478 10/01/06 07:17 PM
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Perhaps you don't have the ability to realize this trilobyte so I will explain it to you.

Using mocking phrases such as "evos" paints a reasonably good portrait of who and what you are.

It undercuts any claim to serious legitimacy for you and your arguments. It reduces you to looking like a small boy on the schoolyard making fun of someone with glaces by calling them "four-eyes."

The truth is that you are not qualified to criticize something you do not understand. And this fact is made explicit by the remarkable lack of depth of what you post such as: "Just how do they add up?" You think this is a serious question only because you have no subject matter knowledge.

The best analogy I can make for you is that you are like a 10 year old in elementary school asking a court judge about Habeus Corpus. You are capable of asking a question but hardly the same question that might be asked by an adult.

The difference is that the child would actually listen to, and to try understand, the answer. You have no serious interest in the answer.


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#15479 10/01/06 10:21 PM
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They insist that mutations add up...but so far have never demonstrated a method to accomplish this.

As I said when I first responded to a post where you asked this question, I will not transcribe a basic biology textbook here for you. Since you asked this question a number of times though, I'm begginning to think you really don't know the answer.

You need a primer in introductory genetics. Try this one, or use google to find more:

http://www.dnaftb.org/dnaftb/1/concept/

This is only the first page, but you have to read it in order to follow the next parts. So please, don't come back here after skimming the page, claiming the site didn't address the question.

Very basically, when a cell reproduces, it makes an identical copy of its genetic material and passes it along to its offspring. If a mutation occurred in that genetic material, the mutation is included.

When the daughter cells reproduce, the next generation gets that mutation, too, and so one down the line. The mutation doesn't just disappear. It remains in the genetic material until that line of cells dies out.

If another mutation occurs in one of the daughter cells or later generation, that mutation is also added to the genetic material. Now there are TWO mutations being passed on, compared to the original genetic material that did not include any mutations.

See how simple it is? NOW do you understand why I was incredulous when you asked that question?

In one of the sites for which I posted a link in a previous response to you, they mentioned a ballpark mutation rate of 1 per 1,000,000 cell divisions. Given that an average man ejects around 250,000,000 sperm cells per ejaculation, and each sperm cell is the result of at least two cell divisions (during meiosis), that's 500 mutations in a single sex act. Mutations are not rare.

Now study up and stop asking questions you should have had answers to when you were 14.


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#15480 10/02/06 12:02 AM
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soilguy said;
If another mutation occurs in one of the daughter cells or later generation

[b]Please explain how the big IF occurs.

You evos always assume it does...but never really get into that portion of the debate.

Then again evolutionISM is based on faith that something occurs

So, explain the IF.

#15481 10/02/06 12:06 AM
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So I visited soilguys link..guess what? 41 topics and not one explained how mutations add up over time.

#15482 10/02/06 12:18 AM
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Trilobyte,

Can you explain how they could not?

I have answered your question several times, but you refuse to answer. Every time I answer you reply "where is it? show me and I'll leave!"

I show you again, but here you are.

The fact is that you are an intellectually lazy person and you don't do your homework.

#15483 10/02/06 12:24 AM
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I have explained it several times...ODDS is one answer.

The harmful mutations that out number the beneficial mutations is another.

Now when are you going to humble yourself and admitt you don't have a clue as to how it happens?

#15484 10/02/06 12:31 AM
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You haven't computed any odds correctly. Your "odds" betray an utter lack of understanding of statistics and evolution. What you've given is your intuitive argument, which is not a scientific one.

I can admit that there are a lot of things about evolution that I don't understand and I can admit that I don't understand everything about how adaptations add up. But I can't honestly say that I don't have a clue, because I have pretty clear take on how it happens.

#15485 10/02/06 03:14 AM
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trilobyte, even identical twins have a few dozen differences in their DNA. By the way you still haven't responded to my point that the different breeds of dog have resulted from mutations.

#15486 10/02/06 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by trilobyte:
So I visited soilguys link..guess what? 41 topics and not one explained how mutations add up over time.
You can't be serious. If you are, you should be ashamed.


When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
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#15487 10/02/06 07:43 PM
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Trying to carry on an adult conversation with trilobyte presumes him to be an adult.

A review of his language and posts indicates this is clearly not the case.

Note to moderators: If you would add age criterion to the sign-up it would avoid some of these useless exchanges where we assume someone to be an adult. In this case I ran trilobyte's postings through software that rates education level and the result from post-after-post was rather clear. You might want to try this yourselves.


DA Morgan
#15488 10/07/06 10:26 PM
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Hi All,

I wondered if some of the more knowledgeable could take a little time to respond to the following or possibly provide a link that deals with some of the ideas. It is from a Christian Apologetics website, but it won't be helpful to me if you choose to rubbish the article solely on the basis of its source. Sincerely looking for answers - Blacknad.

"Even on a theoretical level, it does not seem possible for mutations to account for the diversity of life on earth, at least not in the time available. According to Professor Ambrose, the minimum number of mutations necessary to produce the simplest new structure in an organism is five (Davis, 67-68; Bird, 1:88), but these five mutations must be the proper type and must affect five genes that are functionally related. Davis, 67-68. In other words, not just any five mutations will do. The odds against this occurring in a single organism are astronomical.
Mutations of any kind are believed to occur once in every 100,000 gene replications (though some estimate they occur far less frequently). Davis, 68; Wysong, 272. Assuming that the first single-celled organism had 10,000 genes, the same number as E. coli (Wysong, 113), one mutation would exist for every ten cells. Since only one mutation per 1,000 is non-harmful (Davis, 66), there would be only one non-harmful mutation in a population of 10,000 such cells. The odds that this one non-harmful mutation would affect a particular gene, however, is 1 in 10,000 (since there are 10,000 genes). Therefore, one would need a population of 100,000,000 cells before one of them would be expected to possess a non-harmful mutation of a specific gene.
The odds of a single cell possessing non-harmful mutations of five specific (functionally related) genes is the product of their separate probabilities. Morris, 63. In other words, the probability is 1 in 108 X 108 X 108 X 108 X 108, or 1 in 1040. If one hundred trillion (1014) bacteria were produced every second for five billion years (1017 seconds), the resulting population (1031) would be only 1/1,000,000,000 of what was needed!
But even this is not the whole story. These are the odds of getting just any kind of non-harmful mutations of five related genes. In order to create a new structure, however, the mutated genes must integrate or function in concert with one another. According to Professor Ambrose, the difficulties of obtaining non-harmful mutations of five related genes "fade into insignificance when we recognize that there must be a close integration of functions between the individual genes of the cluster, which must also be integrated into the development of the entire organism." Davis, 68.
In addition to this, the structure resulting from the cluster of the five integrated genes must, in the words of Ambrose, "give some selective advantage, or else become scattered once more within the population at large, due to interbreeding." Bird, 1:87. Ambrose concludes that "it seems impossible to explain [the origin of increased complexity] in terms of random mutations alone." Bird, 1:87.
When one considers that a structure as "simple" as the wing on a fruit fly involves 30-40 genes (Bird, 1:88), it is mathematically absurd to think that random genetic mutations can account for the vast diversity of life on earth. Even Julian Huxley, a staunch evolutionist who made assumptions very favorable to the theory, computed the odds against the evolution of a horse to be 1 in 10 to the 300,000".

Blacknad.

#15489 10/07/06 11:53 PM
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Glad to oblige. Lets dissect what you posted.

"Even on a theoretical level, it does not seem possible for mutations to account for the diversity of life on earth, at least not in the time available."

And the definition of "time available" from the standpoint of a scientist is going to be 13+ billion years. Because we know that life's precursors exist in interstellar space. We know they are exist in nebulae, in meteoroids, pretty much everywhere. So perhaps the point is some other definition of "time available" but that is not defined in what you posted.

"According to Professor Ambrose, the minimum number of mutations necessary to produce the simplest new structure in an organism is five (Davis, 67-68; Bird, 1:88)"

This is clearly nonsense. There is no study I can find in the literature that identifies 1, 5, 50, or 500. Quite simply we do not know. What we do know is that the generation of new species seems to be a matter of permutated equilibrium. In other words things can be going along quite calmly for eons and then suddenly a wealth of new species spring up in a geologically speaking tick of the clock.


"but these five mutations must be the proper type and must affect five genes that are functionally related. Davis, 67-68. In other words, not just any five mutations will do."

Well duh would be my response. But again it builds on a false assumption. That assumption being that these mutations must occur in a specific sequence, that they don't all happen as part of a single event (for example the result of X and gamma ray irradiation of earth caused by a nearby Super Nova) and again that the number 5 is more than a red herring.

"Assuming that the first single-celled organism had 10,000 genes,"

Why? There is no basis for this assumption. We simply don't know so this is another red herring. I could just as rationally posit 100, 1000, or 100,000,000. We just don't know. But this use of an integer makes it seem credible.

"one mutation would exist for every ten cells."

More hyperbole. There could be hundreds of mutations in every cell. Some innocuous. Some harmful. Some capable of interacting with others to produce a delta.

"The odds that this one non-harmful mutation would affect a particular gene, however, is 1 in 10,000 (since there are 10,000 genes)."

Again math is being used as a cover for total ignorance. A gene is a composite of amino acids which is a composite of atoms. A single gene might contain a single wrong amino acid. Ok. But which amino acid? The answer is one of many possible amino acids. And where is that different amino acid? Where in the gene? Does its placement affect the gene's geometry? Does it affect RNA created from that DNA? How does it interact with pre-existing proteins and enzymes in the cell? How does it interact with ribosomes?

Are you starting to see the problem? What you copied is a mixture of ignorance and simplification that is perhaps readable and impressive to the lay-public but in a university biology class is likely to generate fits of derisive laughter.

But I will continue:

"The odds of a single cell possessing non-harmful mutations of five specific (functionally related) genes is the product of their separate probabilities."

Who says the mutations must be non-harmful? Lets look at reality. The mutations that create Sickle Cell Anemia? Are they harmful? If you are a black living in North America or Europe they are. If, on the other hand, you live in Subsaharan Africa they may save your life and allow you to be a biological success story.

More valuable than the elementary-school concept of "harmful mutations" would be to consider the phrase "that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger." And that is really closer to reality here. Everyone you have ever met is genetically distinct. Every single one of 4,000,000,000 people on this planet. By some definition every one of us has multiple mutations. And yet each and every one of those 4,000,000,000+ mutations is reasonably neutral in its affect. One generation from now three will be 5,000,000,000+ people and again all biologically distinct so I guess they all have two non-fatal mutations. By the time your great grandchildren are born you'll have your five.

But it will still be nonsense.

Non-fatal mutations can build up and proliferate for thousands of years. Then some stressor occurs. And it may well be that those with a particular combination survive and form a separate population from others. And there you go.

Reread the above article and realize that every number there is a fabrication unsupported by a study.

Hope this helps.


DA Morgan
#15490 10/08/06 12:09 AM
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Just did a re-read and I meant PUNCTUATED equilibrium. Sorry for the error.

If you wish to delve, in greater detail, into any particular paragraph or thought point to it. I hope the above serves to point out that it is, as we would say in software, vapourware.


DA Morgan
#15491 10/08/06 08:14 AM
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Cheers Dan,

I also found a response to the article at:

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/feedback/jul05.html

Cheers again.

Blacknad.

#15492 10/08/06 11:52 AM
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Evo reply:
We don't know how many...but our faith in evolutionism tells us that they do add up....We still can't prove it, but it must happen...right?

#15493 10/08/06 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by trilobyte:
Evo reply:
We don't know how many...but our faith in evolutionism tells us that they do add up....We still can't prove it, but it must happen...right?
Trilobyte,

Tell me how you know it doesn't happen.

The onus is on you. The evidence seems to suggest that it does happen. What do you know to the contrary.

Thanks.

#15494 10/08/06 05:05 PM
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Beep Beep back the truck up.

It's your faith in evolutionISM that claims mutations do add up...then when asked how EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU EVOS scatter...never answering the question.

Did you ever wonder why you can't explain how mutation add up over time?

Sure, you can claim it happens, suggest it happens, speculate about it happening....but never seem to present a method as to how it can actually occur.

So just how does a random mutation occur in just the right place as to add to a previous mutation that enhanced the benefit of said animal?

Then how does it repeat over and over again so as to add to the previous mutation?

Any takers or will you evo continue to scatter like roaches when the light comes on?

#15495 10/08/06 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by trilobyte:
Evo reply:
We don't know how many...but our faith in evolutionism tells us that they do add up....We still can't prove it, but it must happen...right?
No one else can imagine how mutations wouldn't"add up." Maybe the problem is not with the theory of evolution, but your refusal or inability to learn.


When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
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#15496 10/08/06 06:57 PM
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No maybe about it. This is willfull and wanton ignorance on parade.


DA Morgan
#15497 10/09/06 12:48 AM
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Why don't you evos either put up or shut up?

Explain it or go away.

Prove your faith in the religion of evolutionism is true.

#15498 10/09/06 01:41 AM
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"Why don't you evos either put up or shut up?"

Done so many times. You're too lazy to read.
You're too lazy to do any honest day's homework.

#15499 10/09/06 08:26 AM
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Trilobyte, do really believe that when a mutation occurrs in an individual that individual instantaneously changes into something else?

#15500 10/09/06 02:39 PM
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trilobyte,

I am not a biologist, but I have come to trust in the work and believe it exists. As a result I cannot answer directly "how mutations add up over time". I am curious however if you can answer me the following question?

How many kinds where on the Ark? A direct answer that includes all present day species would be wonderful, please include explanation for : plants, viruses, freshwater species, interdependant species.

When dealing with the "I don't knows" of science jumping to the conclusion, "its a miracle", simply does not work. If evolution does NOT work - bring fact to Noah's ark as a viable alternative to the evolutionary theory. You claim evolution has no backing, support your alternative with facts please smile

#15501 10/09/06 04:41 PM
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TB wrote:
"Why don't you evos either put up or shut up?"

Because it is proper for an adult to try to instruct an adolescent in the hopes that the child will someday grow up to be a contributing member of society. One can only hope that when you reach puberty you will similarly mature in terms of your understanding and appreciation of education.

"Explain it or go away."

Not going to happen. Not today. Not tomorrow. Not during your lifetime. You can not ask us to return to the darkness of willfull and wanton ignorance. If you choose to be blind don't poke sticks into the eyes of others.

"Prove your faith in the religion of evolutionism is true."

Evolution is not a religion. But I can appreciate to someone your age this might be difficult to appreciate. Does the school you attend have a science program or is it a religious school?


DA Morgan
#15502 10/09/06 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by vacate:
trilobyte,

I am not a biologist, but I have come to trust in the work and believe it exists. As a result I cannot answer directly "how mutations add up over time". I am curious however if you can answer me the following question?

How many kinds where on the Ark? A direct answer that includes all present day species would be wonderful, please include explanation for : plants, viruses, freshwater species, interdependant species.

For a list, see the ark thread.

#15503 10/09/06 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by vacate:
trilobyte,

I am not a biologist, but I have come to trust in the work and believe it exists. As a result I cannot answer directly "how mutations add up over time".
At least this guy admits he doesn't know Morgan..why don't you?

He trust in the works of others...that is he takes it on faith and establishes his religion of evolutionISM...just like you Morg.

#15504 10/10/06 12:51 AM
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"I can't explain it because I only know the coloring book version of evolutionISM."

That's an entirely accurate description of your understanding of evolution.

"He trust in the works of others...that is he takes it on faith and establishes his religion of evolutionISM...just like you Morg."

Trilobyte, you couldn't fill one side of postcard with what you know about evolution or science that is actually true.

#15505 10/10/06 04:10 AM
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I've found how little you know about biology, Trilobyte. You wrote:

"Then how does it repeat over and over again so as to add to the previous mutation?"

You really don't understand how mutations are passed to the next generation. Do you do any biology in your science classes at school?

#15506 10/10/06 06:01 AM
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I've done a cursory review of fundamentalist websites and it seems that TB, and those like him, don't get what any of us would call science classes. More accurately they might be described as religion classes labeled as science classes.

For example (somewhat tongue in cheek) Biology 101:
God created the flowers and bees.

It is not different from what masquerades as science in the fundamentalist Muslim madrasas.

Fundamentalists, no matter their proclaimed focus, are essentially all the same.


DA Morgan
#15507 10/10/06 06:42 AM
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DA. I've just worked out how I can explain it all to Trilobyte:

When a mummy and a daddy love each other very much one set of chromosomes from mummy and one from daddy combine. These chromosomes consist of double strings of DNA. If a mutation happens one of the DNA strings passed to baby it may have an effect on the development of that baby.

That's probably enough for him to absorb for now.

#15508 10/11/06 02:03 AM
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bump check

#15509 10/11/06 04:53 AM
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I'm sorry TFF. What do you mean by "bump check" Is it to do with chess?

#15510 10/11/06 05:06 AM
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Perhaps Terry. But it might help if you rephrased it into something more like: "Sometimes the stork has to fly into stormy weather and the little baby gets bumped around."

Mummy and daddy may be just a bit too much information for TB.


DA Morgan
#15511 10/11/06 03:23 PM
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Terry,

I've noticed a strange thing on this forum. It could just be my browser (firefox), but or it could be a bug in the server software. What happens is occasionally a post will cause the server or the browser to get confused. For example, on your post above, the one that started:
"DA. I've just worked out how I can explain it all to Trilobyte: "

Notice that we are on page 3, but page 3 was not displaying - it just came up blank. I could tell there WAS a page 3, I just couldn't see anything on it when I clicked the link. This has happened previously, but very infrequently. I have discovered that if I just make another post to that thread, then the "lost post" shows up, followed by my "bump check."

#15512 10/11/06 04:46 PM
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I use FireFox and see the same behaviour from time to time. I just assume it is a bug in the forum code as logging back in hours later seems to resolve it.


DA Morgan
#15513 10/11/06 05:20 PM
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I'm a good ol' fashioned IE user and I had the same issue.

Blacknad.

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