Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Not-Quite-Science Forum Gilgamesh..ripped of Genesis.

Blacknad wrote:
"These are ideal ocean going dimensions"

On the other hand this is all totally irrelevant as in either case, biblical or Sumerian, they were protected by the appropriate hand of god and could have just as easily sailed a lead brick out into the storm.

Surely no one would claim their god couldn't make a lead brick float.

Trollobyte asks:
"Care to prove that last statement?"

Sure:
"The earliest Sumerian versions of the epic date from as early as the Third dynasty of Ur (2100 BC-2000 BC)."
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh

and

According to historians, the Old Testament was composed between the 5th century BC and the 2nd century BC.
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament

Do the math. If you need help with it just ask.

Now there's a toughy. Gilgamesh:

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/GILG.HTM
http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/
http://novaonline.nvcc.edu/eli/eng251/gilgameshstudy.htm
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/clubmed/gilgamsh.html

The Old Testament:
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab85
exerpt:
"The books of the Jewish Bible are believed to have been written over several centuries, beginning in the 10th century BC - by which time the Hebrews are settled in Canaan, or Palestine. But in many parts the scribes are writing down a much older oral tradition. It is thought that some of the events described may go back as far as the 18th century BC."

The Sumerian account of the flood (one of 500+ flood legends known to exist) was committed to a written form long before the Genesis account (as far as we know). Although the Yahvist text (one text from which the Pentateuch was compiled) was as early as 9 or 10 BC.

This doesn't mean that the Sumerian text was the first flood version to be formulated. The version in the Pentateuch was likely passed down by word of mouth for generations before it was compiled by the writer(s) of Genesis.

There can be no real debate here as the evidence is inconclusive. Scholars cannot say with certainty which version came into being first, only which version was recorded first. And then can only go as far as saying that it is 'as far as we are aware'.

Blacknad.

DA thank you for noticing.

They seem to me to overlap.
Possibly due to mixing sources of the stories.
jjw

Blacknad has it right.....the date in which something is written down doesn't mean it is older or younger. All it means is that it was written down first.

now, back to you my evo friends.

So, when will you evos address the original question? Is it to tough for you that you need to change the topic?

How did a bunch of ignorant ancients get the shape right in Genesis?

We put on a science night for the K12 students in my city. The main contest to design a foil boat that could hold the most pennies. The students very easily were able to experimentally determine that the optimal shape was a barge. The winner was 12 years old.

Are there any actual scientists who confirm this fellow's findings? Have there been any studies that would show such an arc would be big enough to hold two of every animal and their food? Have there been studies to show how much work would be required to keep the place free of feces?

have there been any studies that would show such an arc would be big enough to hold two of every animal and their food?

YES

Are you claiming that it would have been impossible?

Trilobyte, to say the Hebrews were ignorant of boating is to misread your Bible. I think it was the tribe Dan (could have been Asher) who were too busy with their ships to join one of the many invasions the tribes indulged in. Many historians believe Dan are the Danaan of Homer and the Denyen Sea People. They would certainly have known a great deal about sea-faring.

I read a penguin book "Mesopotamia, the Invention of the City" a few years ago. The author claims that both myth and archeology show the first temple in the region was at Eridu. It's built on a slight rise above the plain and fish were eaten at ritual meals. Sounds to me survivors of a regional flood gave thanks for many years. Probably the origin of the Bible story about Noah.

I'll agree that our ancient ancestors were ignorant of modern science. I'll disagree that they were ignorant of seafaring. See:

http://ina.tamu.edu/

trilobyte wrote:
"Blacknad has it right.....the date in which something is written down doesn't mean it is older or younger. All it means is that it was written down first."

While Blacknad is literally correct he is, in fact, completely wrong. Here's why:

Take a tradition that has been passed down through written text. Lets say, for example, the Ten Commandments or the story of George Washington's life. We know, for a fact, that errors, large errors, have crept in.

Now look at a story, any story, passed down solely as oral tradition. What are the chances of it remaining accurate for 100 days? 100 months? 100 years? 100 generations? Absolutely zero!

Thus the first story to be written down is, by definition, the most likely to be accurate. And the first story to be written down, by definition, was the product of the better educated people more likely to care about accuracy.

The story in Genesis is a plagiarized fabrication of a Sumerian epic. At the time of Sumerian culture the story of Abraham/Ibrahim didn't even exist. And may feel free to confirm this with the Jewish Rabbi of your choice. It is, after all, their religion, their tradition, and their language.

TFF.

The first part:

A 12 year old has already seen a barge and has the benefit of a modern education to equip him/her with tools to accomplish the job of experimenting to find the best shape. By all accounts the Sumerians didn't have such tools and weren't able to work out that a giant cube would be unworkable.

It's not a fair parallel.

The second part:

There have been feasibility studies to find out if the ark was workable and whether it could contain enough animals to do the job.

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/ark/index.htm

http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/sizeark.html

Blacknad.

The 12 year olds have seen barges and they have seen ships and boats. The only way they know that a barge is the correct solution is experiment which I witnessed them doing. They figure this out after very few tries.

The 12 year olds have seen barges and they have seen ships and boats. The only way they know that a barge is the correct solution is experiment which I witnessed them doing. They figure this out after very few tries.

Of course a barge is not the correct solution to the arc problem, but it, too, is amenable to simple experiment.

Also, he fit ALL the different kinds of species on the boat? How did he get them all? Penguins? Sloths? Koalas? Kangaroos? Several kinds of Mambas? Gila monsters? coral snakes? Even assuming that no starving peasants would have killed and ate them, how did they get all the way over to the ark? and then how did they get back? LLamas? All the bugs? polar bears? All the fresh water fish (so they wouldn't die in the salt water)? Yes, the ark, were it not a myth would be large, but I wonder if he would actually have been able to construct it. Saying is one thing, actually doing it is quite a different matter.

Even if it weren't a myth, how could all the animals get there, let alone fit?

Arguing about what design would or would not be most seaworthy is a bit ridiculous.

First off no boat is capable of holding two-each, one male and one female of all of the non-oceanic lifeforms on the planet ... not even the largest aircraft carrier ever built.

All the fresh-water fish in fresh water.
All the food required.
All the fresh water for drinking, etc.
And please don't try to tell me they captured that fresh water using tarps or some other such nonsense.
Enough to last for 40+ days.
So if you take the attitude that it happened, and the T Rex didn't eat the sheep then you have to also posit more than a few miracles.

Once you get into the miracle game then you might as well accept that given a miracle even a lead brick can float.

So lets have a reality check. Either the story is preposterous on its face or there had to be a continuing miracle.

And anyone wishing to volunteer to take two monitor lizards from Turkey to Indonesia ... and two Hyenas from Turkey to Africa can be my guest.

He collected them? Sure.
He took them back too? Right.
Just add in another blinkin' miracle.

Hi DA:

I am concerned that if my imagination was as compressed as you seem to project I would have a constant headache.

What is your best estimate of how far back human history may extend?
jjw

This is as good a source as any I can find on the web.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_history

Roughly 8,000 years.

Sounds reasonable.

However we are on two entirely different tours.
jjw

heres a question about the two of every kind.

given the known state of technology, how did he find a place for penguins and polar bears. they have to have cold to survive. how did he find a place near them for animals that require the heat.