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#15194 09/12/06 06:28 PM
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I feel that redheads and blondes have neanderthal traits


"The written word is a lie"
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#15195 09/12/06 10:21 PM
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Trilobyte.

As a Christian who accepts evolution, I find your posts here to be painful. How much do you actually understand about evolution? It would seem little. You should learn more about it before you come here using unhelpful and provocative terms such as 'you Evos'. This just indicates a level of immaturity.

Answer me this question: 'Does your problem with evolution extend from your Christianity and an insecurity that if we take away 'miraculous creation' then it leaves our faith a little frail? Or do you really have scientific knowledge that evolution cannot work? If it is the former then you are simply being intellectually dishonest and need to work on having a more secure and mature faith, and spend less time baiting people on a science site.

If it is the latter then you need to make a coherent argument instead of coming here shouting at people to 'prove it works'. Why expect them to do all the work when you obviously haven't done enough yourself.

Blacknad.

#15196 09/13/06 07:38 AM
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It is very surprising how you guys cling on to minor details, and little catchphrases that might have been spoken to the people by scientists in order to make them UNDERSTAND in an EASIER WAY what the heck they were saying.

It is beyond doubt to anyone the dichotomy o today's culture: it has more sources of information, more possibilities of getting informed, yet it produces increasingly ignorant (not necessarily stupid, but ignorant) people. In this respect, it is an absolute necessity for scientists to explain their point of views by reducing them to such a simple form that it doesn't seem pure miracle to most. The fact that most people don't understand certain laws or phenomena even put in this way is, unfortunately, certain. I am referring, by this, to the term "random mutation", of course.

Coming back to our topic: Creationism cannot be considered a religion according to the definition of "religion": put shortly, a belief or a system of beliefs in a supernatural power. Regardless of practices, you cannot call it a religion. A cult, maybe, but not a religion.

What trilobyte needs to understand is that mutations do not necessarily occur "randomly". They are influenced by many factors. Even a grown-up body can have a mutation in all the cells. There is a trigger and a mechanism for that to happen, yet we do not fully understand it for the time being.

As for mutation causing all sort of interesting effects, read any book on biology, the chapter related to syndromes... and to give you an example of situation in which mutation causes extreme height, refer to "gigantism", same chapter of the book.

dehammer: "If the bible is correct and noah's family was the only survivors of the flood, and it occured less than 4000 years ago, then how did native americans get here 20000 years ago and why do they look so much different than Noah who was middle eastener. how did the chineese get so different. how did so many different genes come from one family?"

Even more interestingly: how the heck did humans end up on Easter Island, right in the middle of the darned Pacific Ocean, since it was until the 16th Century that Europeans had boats capable enough of arriving there? 4000 years is awfully short smile

#15197 09/13/06 07:50 AM
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Andist. Quote:

I feel that redheads and blondes have neanderthal traits

Thanks. I've been arguing exactly that on the Out of Asia post.

#15198 09/13/06 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by terrytnewzealand:
Andist. Quote:

I feel that redheads and blondes have neanderthal traits

Thanks. I've been arguing exactly that on the Out of Asia post.
In what way do redheads and blondes have "neandertal traits?"


When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis
#15199 09/13/06 08:10 PM
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This is a topic which I've never come across, but I must admit I'm curious... perhaps you could give an example ... ?

#15200 09/13/06 11:58 PM
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Rigor O'Mortis,
Once again another evo side steps the issue...Just how do the mutations..RANDOM or not add up over time?

What is your explaination?

Why are you evo silent on this topic?

#15201 09/14/06 12:00 AM
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To Blacknad,
Will you provide an answer as to how RANDOM mutations add up over time?

Instead of you silly evos making the claim that I don't "understand" evolutionism....why don't you post the answer?

Could it be that even you evos don't understand your own theory? Hmmmmmmm

#15202 09/14/06 02:12 AM
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It's been explained numerous times, troll-obyte. you don't read well.

Could it be that you don't understand evolution any better than you do statistics?

#15203 09/14/06 09:17 AM
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Soilguy. Several sites re. Neanderthals? skin and hair colour:

http://www.asa3.org/archive/asa/200003/0254.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair

http://www.aulis.com/news12.htm

A site from an amateur but his comments seem reasonable:

http://unauthorised.org/anthropology/sci.anthropology.paleo/march-1995/0090.html

I?m sure that?s enough for now. The idea that blond hair developed rapidly in Northern Europe as a result of sexual selection probably tells us more about the sexual desires of the scientist making the claim than it does about Neanderthal hair colour. I think it was on the Out of Asia post where I mentioned that Neanderthals lived in Europe for 200,000 years and they would certainly not be the only creature in the region to change from white to brown with the seasons.

Trilobite (I'll spell it that way because your reasoning seems to be as ancient as your namesake and, like them, should be extinct) do you still really not see that you don't need a whole series of magic mutations for a species to change it's appearance over many generations?

#15204 09/14/06 12:55 PM
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LO! I see you are at war,and such is the state of mind that tends to perpetuate confusion,which is in itself an insatiable need to find one's own centre.Life would be meaningless without emotions such as confusion,mystery,love,and all that often makes man delirious,but one can avoid such ravings by being a 'LOGICAL EPIRICIST'.However,we cannot all be wise and virtuous because we wouldnt have beautiful words like fools,villains,knaves,etc.I agree with Einstein when he says all religions are based on mystery,because it seems evident that even science is a product of man's curiosity and the knowledge of the existence of reason behind everything,which is therefore a religion too.SO never seize to be religious men!

#15205 09/14/06 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by trilobyte:
To Blacknad,
Will you provide an answer as to how RANDOM mutations add up over time?

Instead of you silly evos making the claim that I don't "understand" evolutionism....why don't you post the answer?

Could it be that even you evos don't understand your own theory? Hmmmmmmm
I think it's more likely that YOU don't understand the theory, or biology in general.

1. Why do you think mutations must occur within close proximity of each other on a chromosome, in order for them to affect each other? (They don't.)

2. Why do you think mutations occur at random, with equal probability throughout a genome? (It is well known that they DO NOT. There are "hot spots" with high mutation rates on genomes, as well as parts where mutations are rare.)

3. Why are you only considering point mutations of individual base pairs? Other types of mutation also exist, and are often far more profound.

And finally, why do YOU keep ducking the questions about how YOU imagine evolution works? I've asked that several times and you ignore it. The reason I ask is that the only way I see of clearing up any misconception you have is to hear what YOU envision.

So far, my guess is that you know very little, don't envision anything, and just pick up the fabulous arguments against evolution from creationist sources. These sources rely on the notion that their readers are ignorant of evolution in particular, and biology in general.


When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis
#15206 09/14/06 04:46 PM
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Terryt:

What about mtDNA studies? This one seems to indicate that any common ancestor with Homo sapiens was around 250,000 years ago (pre-Homo sapiens):

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/22/4/1077


When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
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#15207 09/15/06 02:04 AM
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Great answer Soilguy...HOT SPOTS.
How many harmfull mutations will occur in this hot spot before a beneficial mutation just so happens to come along?

#15208 09/15/06 03:03 AM
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Thanks for that Soilguy. However we know from other species that mtDNA doesn't necessarily reflect nuclear DNA. There is a relevant site by Bradley et. al. on African, European and Indian cattle but SAGG site won't accept the reference I have. I'll try to find it somewhere else.

In the Out of Asia posting I put in a reference to Y-chromosomes of American indians. In it Karafet writes "each gene has its own evolutionary history" The original Out of Asia posting gives examples of human genes that show ancient regional ancestry. This shows there have been regional contributions to the human genome long before the "Out of Africa" migration. These contributions probably include Neanderthal as well as Southeast Asian Homo erectus and Pekin Man.

#15209 09/15/06 03:09 AM
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Trilobite, you still haven't answered our questions.

From Dehammer: "If the bible is correct and noah's family was the only survivors of the flood, and it occured less than 4000 years ago, then how did native americans get here 20000 years ago and why do they look so much different than Noah who was middle eastener. how did the Chinese get so different. how did so many different genes come from one family?"

My one: "If all people on earth are descended from just one couple, either Adam and Eve or Noah and his wife, why do we observe regional variations? Surely some form of evolution is the only answer."

Blacknad's: "Does your problem with evolution extend from your Christianity and an insecurity that if we take away 'miraculous creation' then it leaves our faith a little frail? Or do you really have scientific knowledge that evolution cannot work?"

#15210 09/15/06 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by trilobyte:
Great answer Soilguy...HOT SPOTS.
How many harmfull mutations will occur in this hot spot before a beneficial mutation just so happens to come along?
Sorry to introduce a fact into this discussion, trilo. The probabilities you have been trying to introduce are false, even if a mutation HAD to occur in close proximity to another, on the genome, in order to affect another.


When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis
#15211 09/17/06 03:02 AM
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terrytnewzealand asked....why do they look so much different than Noah ?

Would you be so kind as to post a picture of Noah so we can see the diffferences?

#15212 09/17/06 03:07 AM
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terrytnewzealand posted;
"If all people on earth are descended from just one couple, either Adam and Eve or Noah and his wife, why do we observe regional variations?

You do realize that Noah had 3 sons each who had a wife...with an unknown genetic make up.

There is no reason why the differences seen in us humans is nothing more than genetic differences....not caused by mutations...

But, then again if mutations are involved and man is evolving in several different directions, which race is the most primitive?

#15213 09/17/06 08:22 AM
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Trilobyte, Your comment:

"But, then again if mutations are involved and man is evolving in several different directions, which race is the most primitive?"

Who said anything about "evolution" being the same as "progress"? That's making the same assumptions that people made during the Industrial Revolution. They used to assume the ultimate in progress was European man. Do you still have this idea? Evolution is simply adaptation to the environment. Races are just a result of different adaptations forced on humans through living in different regions of ther earth.

Anyway as far as I know Adam and Eve's sons didn't have three wives so your problem remains.

I'll explain again how evolution works:

All religions are the result of much interbreeding of beliefs and selection or survival of the fittest. In fact they usually rapidly break up to form subspecies. Christianity has formed such subspecies as Orthodox, Catholic, Episcopalian, Jehovah's Witness, Anglican, Prebyterian, Baptist etc. Several subspecies such as Gnostics, Albigenses, Arians, etc. have even become extinct.

Christianity evolved from a mixture of Hebrew beliefs along with Egyptian and Greek ideas. We know Hebrew beliefs were already a hybrid because the Old Testament uses the Canaanite words "El" and plural "Elohim" for God and Gods as well as the Midianite "Yaweh".

Canaanite beliefs had evolved from a hybrid of Egyptian and Mesopotamian ideas. Zoroastrian beliefs from Persia also had a huge influence on Hebrew ideas as did Indo-European ideas transmitted by the Hittites and the Hyksos.

I hope this helps your understanding of evolution.

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