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#15154 - 09/04/06 04:39 PM evolutionISM
trilobyte Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 179
In another thread Soilguy said the following

Quote:
"Evolutionists" don't worship man, Tim. Evolution is not a religion.
His claim is that evolution is not a religion.....I beg to differ.

Read on.

EVOLUTION ISM
EvolutionISM is a religion....the preachers are guys such as Gould, Darwin...Bill Nye the Science guy, etc.

They fervently follows the beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of the above preachers.

Then there are little evongelist such as the false prophest who post on this forum....claiming EVOLUTIONISM IS TRUE....as they thump their text books...

The evo-scientist always looking for a hand out...offering, can you say grant?
Even your donations to the religion of EvolutionISM are often tax deductable.

Sure the preachers of evolutionISM may not have a stained glass windowed buildings...but they do have lecture halls where the deceived come to hear the latest and get their ears tickled.
The evos use these institutionalized system to ground themselves in such belief and worship of mans fallible science.
In these institutionalized system children are force fed this religion....shunned if they disagree.

The Christians uses the book of Genesis from the Word of God to help us understand our Godly origins while the disciples of evolutionISM try to force fit fossils fragments into some gapped filled so-called evolutionary linage.

Christianity says we need salvation...we are all sinners and need the blood of Jesus Christ to wash us white as snow...while the typical evolutionISM believer says there is no sin, no price to pay....no need for salvation. Their claim is man is the measure of all means. Can you say Humanism?

Of course there are different denominations of evolutionISM, considering they all don't believe the same thing. Some are gradual, some are punctuated. Some claim birds are dinos while some preach, no way!. Some followers of organized religious denominational evolutionISM allow god as a creator.
Some of the different sects of evolutionISM have man continuing to evolve and achieving the Omega Point......tell me that's not religion.

Christianity has miracles, evolutionISM has the need for magical mutations.
The evos belief is in reverence for the power of natural selection and other powers regarded as a creation force that governs the universe.

EvolutionISM is truly an ISM theory. It has NEVER been witnesses, predicted or repeated in a lab. There are no examples of morphological mutations.

Most of the followers of evolutionism are fervent in their faith...the way the evos act here easily proves that point.
They follow their cause, their principle, and pursue their activities with zeal and conscientious devotion.

EvolutionISM is indeed a religion.

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#15155 - 09/04/06 10:12 PM Re: evolutionISM
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Mutations are not magical. Scientists can observe and study them. We can even model them.

You mockingly refer to studying the issue as "thump[ing] textbooks."

The issue is there woudn't be an issue, if you weren't talking out your backside.

You pretend that because your only recourse is to repeat brainless blather, that that's all anyone else can do. Don't be lazy. Do your homework. Learn about the thing you hate.

Criticize it all you wish, but make your criticisms count. Make them real and not imaginary.

Or you can continue to excrete your pearls of distilled stupidity into long-winded, nonsensical, nugatory tirades.

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#15156 - 09/05/06 01:11 AM Re: evolutionISM
trilobyte Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 179
Way to be theFallibleFiend...use ad-homs as a scientific reply.

Random mutations need to be magical if they are to add up over time and increase the fitness of an animal..

Sheeze, the human has 3.2 BILLION base pairs....If each base pair was 1 mile wide they would all strech to the X-planet Pluto.

Now that a lot of places for a rare beneficial mutation to occur...then when you realize that very few would be beneficial..and all of them are random..then they must be magical if they ever effect just the right basepair so as to add to the last rare, random beneficial mutation.

So theFallibleFiend, I have done my homework. I have learned that the religion of evolutionISM fails.

Or can you show us how they do add up over time? Instead of thumping your textbook, open it up and see if it tells you how evolutionISM really works. I bet it doesn't. I looked.

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#15157 - 09/05/06 03:48 AM Re: evolutionISM
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Well isn't this amusing. The person who initiates ad hominem is whining that it is being directed at him. Not so much amusing as predictable. It's doubtful you even know what an ad hominem argument is.

"Random mutations need to be magical if they are to add up over time and increase the fitness of an animal."

No. They don't. If you had done an honest day's homework on the subject, you would know that.

"Sheeze, the human has 3.2 BILLION base pairs....If each base pair was 1 mile wide they would all strech to the X-planet Pluto."
Irrelevant.

"Now that a lot of places for a rare beneficial mutation to occur...then when you realize that very few would be beneficial..and all of them are random..then they must be magical if they ever effect just the right basepair so as to add to the last rare, random beneficial mutation."
No. They don't have to be magical. A thing is not magical just because an intellectually lazy person stuffs his fingers in his ears and sneers 'nyah nyah nyah, you can't tell ME anything!'

"So theFallibleFiend, I have done my homework. I have learned that the religion of evolutionISM fails."
No. You have not. And your recent spate of nonsense confirms it.


"Or can you show us how they do add up over time? Instead of thumping your textbook, open it up and see if it tells you how evolutionISM really works. I bet it doesn't. I looked."
I don't need to thump my textbook. You haven't looked at anything and it's only self-delusion that allows you to believe you have. How do grains of sand add up over time? How do the waters in a river add up over time?

Do some honest homework. You don't need to blather nonsense.

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#15158 - 09/05/06 05:18 AM Re: evolutionISM
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
tri, how does a few rain drops make the mississippi? its the same way with evolution. it does not require you to beleive anything. All it takes is an open mind, which yours never has been.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#15159 - 09/05/06 01:56 PM Re: evolutionISM
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
Trilobyte, let me know when you want to carry on an honest conversation.
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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#15160 - 09/05/06 10:48 PM Re: evolutionISM
trilobyte Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 179
soilguy, instead of being arrogant like TheFallibleFiend,,,why don't you answer my questions?

I'm trying to have a honest conversation and learn how mutations add up..but you evo's keep refusing to answer me...so, I have to ask, when do YOU want to have an honest conversation? When will YOU answer the question?

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#15161 - 09/06/06 01:40 AM Re: evolutionISM
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Referring to "evos" does not equate to "trying to have an honest conversation."

Asking idiotic "questions" that are effectively false assertions about what evolution is and how it works does not equate to "trying to have an honest conversation."

YOU are unjustifiably arrogant. You are arrogant with nothing to back it up. Do your homework. Quit lying to yourself. Quit being lazy.

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#15162 - 09/06/06 02:03 AM Re: evolutionISM
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by trilobyte:
soilguy, instead of being arrogant like TheFallibleFiend,,,why don't you answer my questions?

I'm trying to have a honest conversation and learn how mutations add up..but you evo's keep refusing to answer me...so, I have to ask, when do YOU want to have an honest conversation? When will YOU answer the question?
weve told you. its the same way water drops add up to the mississippi river. a little at a time for a long time. If they dont help the "mutation" go in a good directions, they either get lost due to death of the unborn animal (or unsprouted plant), or it hinders the life of the living thing, or it moves the line its in back towards the parent line.

Its easiest to envision it like a tree. The tree limps need to have the highest limps to reach the sun. Some of the mutations push the change like the branches moveing upwards. on the other hand, some of them are like the ones that move the branches towards the side. Some are even like the ones that move towards the ground. a few branches even turn back towards the trunk. in moving towards a single change in the DNA, there might be literally thousands of mutations, none of them very big. Only a few every get to the point of making a major change that lives. Its not magic. its not every single change being for the better. Its not even that everything works for the best. There are lots of things in the human body that could be alot better. If someone or something was controling the mutation, they did a terrible job of creating the purfact (spelling intended) body.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#15163 - 09/06/06 12:52 PM Re: evolutionISM
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:
Originally posted by trilobyte:
soilguy, instead of being arrogant like TheFallibleFiend,,,why don't you answer my questions?

I'm trying to have a honest conversation and learn how mutations add up..but you evo's keep refusing to answer me...so, I have to ask, when do YOU want to have an honest conversation? When will YOU answer the question?
How do mutations add up??? Are you serious???

I have no intention of serving up a remedial course in biology for you, which you will need in order to discuss this subject. There are many books, many schools and even websites that can give you the information you seek. But you'll actually have to spend time reading, absorbing and learning. I suspect that is not your inclination or intent for being here. You've picked up your biological *information* from creationist sources and assume you are armed for battle with the infidel.

If you DO have some knowledge of biology, why would you ask how mutations can add up? How could they NOT add up?
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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#15164 - 09/06/06 06:52 PM Re: evolutionISM
trilobyte Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 179
dehammer posted:
weve told you. its the same way water drops add up to the mississippi river.

Evolutionism is nothing like that. If you add the water to any place in the Mississippi the river will "grow".
This is not true for evolutionism. A mutation to the tail will not effect the nose...agreed?


a little at a time for a long time. If they dont help the "mutation" go in a good directions, they either get lost due to death of the unborn animal (or unsprouted plant), or it hinders the life of the living thing, or it moves the line its in back towards the parent line.

OK, so what allows a mutation to occur in just the right place and "go in a good direction"?
I don't see this happening over and over again untill a new body part, organ or appendage is formed.

The required multiple RANDOM beneficial mutation occurring in just the right place seem to defy the odds.


Its easiest to envision it like a tree. The tree limps need to have the highest limps to reach the sun. Some of the mutations push the change like the branches moveing upwards.

How many is "some of the mutations"?
What makes you think that a RANDOM mutation will occur again and again in just the right spot to allow the branch to move upwards?

Arn't you assuming this will occur?


on the other hand, some of them are like the ones that move the branches towards the side. Some are even like the ones that move towards the ground. a few branches even turn back towards the trunk. in moving towards a single change in the DNA, there might be literally thousands of mutations, none of them very big.

So how do thousands of mutations just so happen to occur in just the right place to do what you claim they do? This you need to answer. Otherwise your theory is based on faith...religion.

Only a few every get to the point of making a major change that lives. Its not magic. its not every single change being for the better. Its not even that everything works for the best. There are lots of things in the human body that could be alot better. If someone or something was controling the mutation, they did a terrible job of creating the purfact (spelling intended) body.

Please explain my objections instead of assuming they occur.

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#15165 - 09/06/06 06:55 PM Re: evolutionISM
trilobyte Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 179
soilguy posted:
How do mutations add up??? Are you serious???

I have no intention of serving up a remedial course in biology for you, which you will need in order to discuss this subject. There are many books, many schools and even websites that can give you the information you seek.

[b]Yes I am serious.
In fact I have searched through several books and many websites and have not discovered the answer.
The typical web site and book ...like you...assumes they happen and can add up....BUT, I have never seen an explaination how they do.

You act as if you know...so please do tell us. (That is if you really do know.)

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#15166 - 09/06/06 06:59 PM Re: evolutionISM
trilobyte Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 179
soilguy also posted:
If you DO have some knowledge of biology, why would you ask how mutations can add up? How could they NOT add up?

This has been explained several times on these threads.

lets start with the odds. The human has 3.2 billion base pairs. What are the odds of another RANDOM beneficial mutation occurring in a base pair in such a fashion that it adds to the last beneficial mutation and then is added to the gene pool?

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#15167 - 09/06/06 07:00 PM Re: evolutionISM
trilobyte Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 179
It becomes obvious real quick that you evos follow the reigion of evolutionISM.

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#15168 - 09/06/06 07:31 PM Re: evolutionISM
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
"The required multiple RANDOM beneficial mutation occurring in just the right place seem to defy the odds."
You haven't computed the odds.

"It becomes obvious real quick that you evos follow the reigion of evolutionISM."

It is obvious that you are too lazy to do any homework on the subject. You're the 10th grade tyrant sneering that geometry is pure magic, because he hasn't done his homework.

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#15169 - 09/06/06 07:43 PM Re: evolutionISM
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
except t here is no such thing as a religion of evolutionism. evolution is a science, not a belief.

let me explain something about odds.

lets say you want to win the lottery.

you have say 1 in 15 million chances to win. does that mean you will win. no. it means you have a chance.

now lets say that there are 50 million people playing the lottery. each of them has a 1 in 15 million chance to win. Does that mean they will all lose. no. With that many players, the odds are there will be 3 winners. there may be 1 winner. there may be 50 winners, or there may not be a winner at all. Its called chance.

now lets say that some how you can live long enough to play the game 50 million times. The odds are that you will win 3 times in your life time.

now what does this have to do with genes. simple.

how many of thoese 3.2 billion base pairs do you think could have a benificial mutations. Answer, most of them. What are the odds of the mutation being negative, much higher. If its is a negative that does not mean it is not benifical, but that it is not something that is of use at that time. With someone being born every second, that means that there are 31577600 chance for a mutation to occur every year. Do they happen in the same place? no. lets assume that the chances of any mutation occuring is 1 in a million. (1x 10 to the 9th power). the chances of it happening on any particular pair is then 3.2 x 10 to the 15th power. this means that any particular pair would mutate in about 1 x 10 to the 8 year.

On the other hand, a mutation of any pair would occur 3200 times a year on average. Now what kind of mutations would that be. mosly things like someone getting and extra foot, or extra hand, or having a neuroligical disorder that was not in his or her family. check it out on the web, and youll find these things occuring. Rare, but they happen. In fact mutations arent a 1 in a million thing. it happens a lot more often than that. There are some mutations by themself that occure in 1 in 8 million births. most mutations dont affect anything and disappear. lets say that a man has a mutation that causes his head to have a slightly different shape. If he has 1 child, the changes of him passing that gene to the child is 50/50. with two children, the chances are 75/25. Now lets change it slightly, the shape makes him look weird. now women, avoid him. the chances of him having a child is now about 1 in 10 so the chances of him having two children and passing the gene on is now only 5%.

now what is the odds of a benificial mutation. likely 1 in a thosand mutations. which means that a benificial mutation occurs something like 3 times a year. now if the mutations caused a man to be smarter, but made his head look weird, the chances are that one would not be of good to the human race.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#15170 - 09/06/06 07:57 PM Re: evolutionISM
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
Trilobyte, I can't imagine what you're getting at with your incredulity regarding mutations adding up. Tossing out numbers of base pairs is meaningless.

An organism is born with a mutation. That mutation does not kill the individual or prevent it from breeding. That mutation is passed to the next generation. Another mutation occurs in the next generation...

What do you envision that prevents a mutation from being passed to the next generation? What do you envision that prevents mutations from accumulating?
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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#15171 - 09/06/06 08:17 PM Re: evolutionISM
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:
Originally posted by trilobyte:
It becomes obvious real quick that you evos follow the reigion of evolutionISM.
You've shown only that you lack understanding. You talk about billions of base pairs: so what? A base pair is not a gene, it's 1/3 of a codon. You talk about odds: what odds? You've computed no odds. And to attempt to compute odds based on numbers of base pairs means exactly what?

Do you think all mutations are the result of a point mutation, changing a single base pair? Do you think that point mutations are random? If you answered "yes" to either of those questions, you are incorrect.
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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#15172 - 09/07/06 11:56 PM Re: evolutionISM
trilobyte Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 179
The odds are ...in a human, 1 in 3.2BILLION.

Which shuts down evolutionISM

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#15173 - 09/08/06 01:40 AM Re: evolutionISM
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
"The odds are ...in a human, 1 in 3.2BILLION."
Only if you pull a number out of your backside. I've read that 75% of statistics are made up. You're an exampla non grata.

"Which shuts down evolutionISM"
Only in the minds of those who are too intellectually dishonest to present such a ridiculous number as fact.

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