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#29246 - 01/22/09 12:25 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: paul]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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"when you are walking your smaller toes do not press down as much as your big toe does.

to me this is more evidence that this particular cross section is not a carved fake."

This is an explanation that doesn't explain the observation. The fact that the big toe presses harder than the little toes would explain (if it were observed) a less pronounced feature under the little toes than under the big one. But that isn't what we observe. We observe the feature under the ridge BETWEEN the toes. Your explanation doesn't explain that. It also doesn't explain why the delineation of the feature doesn't seem to vary with the depth. The "substrate pressure line" seems absurd simply because it doesn't explain the observation.

Of course, I'm not a geologist. However considering that limestone is pretty porous stuff, the algal explanation seems a pretty good explanation. As one of the authors of the original paper is an actual PhD geologist, it seems likely he would be familiar with this kind of thing.


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#29247 - 01/22/09 04:39 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
Quote:
The fact that the big toe presses harder than the little toes would explain (if it were observed) a less pronounced feature under the little toes than under the big one.


thank you , you seem to have observed that correctly.
and that is what I am focusing on to establish evidence that
can be used to determine if this footprint was faked or is an actual footprint.

Quote:
But that isn't what we observe. We observe the feature under the ridge BETWEEN the toes.


I observe the entire body / amount of evidence , I dont pick what would be appropriate for my observation , in this case by denying that the whole body of evidence exist by singleing out specfic areas of the picture and acting as if the remaining evidence does not exist.




look at the picture above... now picture in your mind a soggy waterless or slightly dried up river or creek bed.

Im sure you have seen these , they are litteraly filled or covered with algae depending on their geographical location
and climate etc...and they resemble a swamp or marshland.



now if you place your foot on this soggy mud surface covered with algae you would depress the top of the algae into the mud
and this is what shows up in the rock that the cross section is taken from.

the undisturbed soil is seen showing less pressure lines in the
sample.

the disturbed soil shows the distinct outline of the footprint underneath the surface IN THE SUBSOIL.

HOW DO YOU THINK THE SUBSOIL WAS CARVED TO REFLECT THE FOOTPRINT?

just answer that then.

if you cannot think for yourself and answer the above then I dont think that you are approaching this with a scientific mind only a closed mind that has been influenced by the teachings of evolution and that evolution will not change and should not be associated with science as science itself is not a closed dicipline.

the question Im asking you has nothing to do with evolution
it is just a question about a foot , some pressure , and mud with algae on it.



Quote:
Not sure if I'm going to respond to the rest of your message, since most of it conveys an implicit misunderstanding of evolution and you could pretty easily figure it out, if you wanted.


Im trying to understand it , I really am , its just that I have the ability to think beyond the textbooks and am not locked into the knowledge they convey.

I personaly believe that evolution is correct in many ways only that it tends to want to adhere that we humans evolved from apes
showing extreme prejudice in that direction , where the imense amount of evidence has not yet been found that could change its direction.

it is a theory and not a fact.

just like the footprint above where extreme prejudice has been displayed as to the validity of it in itself , not to mention the evidence that has been denied in the past such as the california gold tunnels finds.

Quote:
This issue is a little more broad. Since the evidence demonstrates that the Burdick track is a hoax, it's not just that the data is bad, but that it was intentionally fraudulent.


I would be more inclined to agree that the presenters of the evidence against the validity of the footprints were the ones hoaxing , and the the data they presented as evidence was not just bad , it was fraudulent and intentionaly fraudulent.

but that does not not dismiss that evolution itself as a dicipline is fraudulent , it only shows the extreme prejudice that accompanies the dicipline of evolution.














_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#29248 - 01/22/09 07:03 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: paul]
paul Offline
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continuing from yesterday

setting the scene...



[img][img]http://www.ehhs.cmich.edu/~zha238/EDU290folder2/elephant.jpg[/img][/img]



Pleistocene 1.8 million to 10,000 years ago




















_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#29249 - 01/22/09 09:16 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: paul]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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I don't think the subsoil was carved to "reflect the footprint." It seems to me that you are not looking at all the data, but only the part that supports your point. Look at the zoomed out view with the blue arrow that shows the "substrate pressure line" BETWEEN the toes and farther away from the surface. If these really ARE "substrate pressure lines," why is that one there?


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#29251 - 01/23/09 12:37 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
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Quote:
blue arrow that shows the "substrate pressure line"


what the arrows point to are not pressure lines in the picture , the arrows are simply pointing to algal substrate.

the arrows point to the fact that algal substrate do not always grow in a position that the narrow point is always pointing "DOWN".






they grow in various positions in the limestone as depicted in the picture.




here is a cross section of the heel area of the footprint.



and below is a top view of the Burdick footprint , it closely resembels a modern human footprint although it is mostly triangular in shape has a almost pointed heel and it is 13 1/4 inches long.


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#29253 - 01/23/09 02:02 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: paul]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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"HOW DO YOU THINK THE SUBSOIL WAS CARVED TO REFLECT THE FOOTPRINT?"
I don't see any evidence to suggest the subsoil does in fact reflect the footprint. You seem to be looking at the evidence subjectively. You ignore the blue arrow I mentioned in your own data and talk about the effects that agree. We have the word of two people who parade false credentials about what those things are vs the opinion of a guy who really is a PhD geologist. There is no reason to accept that this features are caused by pressure. They occur in other places besides directly beneath toes. A real scientist says they were algae formations.

And we're ignoring for now the fact that the shape of the "imprint" is anatomically correct.


As for the other - evolution is a fact and a theory for explaining that fact. It doesn't explain 'everything' - nor does it have to. There are some questions it doesn't now answer - and some that it probably never will. There are many questions that it's not intended to answer.

You ask why there is nothing else like humans - there are other things "like" humans - apes and monkeys. There is a case of a chimp who actually walked upright on a regular basis, had very human facial expressions and kept trying to mate with humans. Some people thought it was a Humanzee and incorrectly called it that. Genetic analysis determined it was genetically a "pure chimp." However, the conclusion here is that a mere chimp CAN ... with the right genetic accident walk completely upright.

You ask why nothing else wears clothes - why should they?

You ask why we didn't evolve from a purple rhino - because we didn't. There is no genetic or homological data suggesting it happened. Is this intended as a philosophical question?


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#29257 - 01/24/09 12:24 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
FF wrote;

"You ask why nothing else wears clothes - why should they?"

Exactly...

Added to which... the wearing of clothes is a cultural adaptation and has NOTHING to do with evolution. We are all born naked, and indeed many primitive tribes wore no clothing, particularly in hot climtes, until recently. Covering nakedness was always a priority of missionaries. So why did they cover up? The answer is very off-topic... but interesting, if unscientific.

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#29266 - 01/26/09 01:50 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Ellis]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Ellis,
I made a video you may find interesting titled "Creation Apologetics: the Antithesis of Honest, Competent Research."


at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAuXnZfWtQ


Edited by TheFallibleFiend (01/26/09 01:51 AM)

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#29269 - 01/26/09 07:30 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
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WASHINGTON Two centuries after Charles Darwin's birth on Feb. 12, 1809 , people still argue passionately about his theory of evolution.

Was Darwin right? Should schoolchildren be exposed to contrary views in science class? These two controversies continue to rage, partly because both sides are evenly matched.

Most scientists and courts that have ruled on the matter say that overwhelming evidence backs Darwin's explanation of the origin and evolution of species, including humans, by natural selection.

Many people, especially religious and social conservatives, strongly disagree.

Among them are ``creationists,'' who take literally the Genesis story that God created the world and mankind in six days no more than 10,000 years ago. Others support ``intelligent design,'' the idea that life is too complex to have arisen without a supernatural ``designer," presumably God.

Public opinion surveys consistently have shown that Americans are deeply divided over evolution. The most recent Gallup poll on the issue, in June 2007 , found that 49 percent of those surveyed said they believed in evolution and 48 percent said they didn't. Those percentages have stayed almost even for at least 25 years.

Gallup found a political angle to the split. Two-thirds of Republicans rejected Darwin's theory, while majorities of Democrats and political independents accepted it.

A Harris poll published last December found that more people believe in a devil, hell and angels than in evolution.

The controversy is most acute in the public schools, where conservatives want evolution banished from science classes or at least described as ``a theory, not a fact.''

Darwin's supporters counter that to scientists a theory isn't just a guess or a hypothesis but a widely accepted explanation of natural events supported by the best available evidence.

At a hearing last week before Texas' State Board of Education , scientists and social conservatives exchanged fiery arguments over a rule that requires science textbooks to cover ``the strengths and weaknesses'' of evolutionary theory.

Darwin critics control seven of the 15 seats on the board and have the support of Republican Gov. Rick Perry . The chairman of the board, Don McLeroy , a dentist, is a creationist who believes that the Earth is only thousands of years old, not billions as most scientists think. The board will decide the issue in March.

Louisiana's State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education adopted guidelines Jan. 15 that allow teachers to use ``supplemental materials'' that aren't in regular textbooks about ``controversial'' subjects such as evolution and global warming.

Louisiana's new rules ``ensure the state's teachers their right to teach the scientific evidence both for and against Darwinian evolution,'' according to the Discovery Institute , the headquarters of the intelligent design movement in Seattle .

``We fully expect to see the Discovery Institute's book, `Explore Evolution,' popping up in school districts across the state,'' Barbara Forrest , a Darwin supporter in Hammond, La. , told Science magazine .

The Louisiana school board also eliminated language that had banned the teaching of creationism or intelligent design, saying that the ban is unnecessary.

``The creationists got what they wanted,'' said Patsye Peebles , a retired Louisiana science teacher.

The opposition to the Discovery Institute is led by the National Center for Science Education , a pro-Darwin research center based in Oakland, Calif.

The center contends that intelligent design is a subtle way to introduce religion into science education, which the courts consistently have declared unconstitutional.

``The phrase `strengths and weaknesses' has been spread nationally as a slogan to bring creationism in through the back door,'' center executive director Eugenie Scott told the Texas school board.

Similar proposals are pending or expected in Alabama , Arkansas , Florida , Georgia , Michigan , Missouri , Oklahoma and South Carolina , according to Glenn Branch, the deputy director of the National Center for Science Education .

``In a typical year, NCSE will be monitoring about 80 episodes of creationist activity in the United States and abroad,'' Branch said.

``This issue isn't going away,'' John West , a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute , wrote in an e-mail to his allies last May. ``Although Darwinists are doing their best to shut down and intimidate anyone who raises questions about neo-Darwinism, we still have free speech, and they can't prevent people from hearing about the debate in the public arena, no matter how hard they try.''

The theory of evolution itself is evolving. Since Darwin's day, researchers have acquired powerful tools that revealed DNA's role in passing inheritance from generation to generation, something Darwin knew nothing about.

Around the middle of the 20th century, this led to the ``Modern Synthesis,'' a major updating of evolutionary theory to accommodate new information. Many biologists are suggesting still another revision, which some call ``Modern Synthesis 2.0.''

For example, Darwin described evolution as the growth of a tree, the ``Tree of Life. '' The tree began with a single, original organism at the root, with myriad species branching off from the trunk.

Biologists increasingly say that evolution resembles a web or a bush rather than a tree. Microbes constantly swap DNA. Hybrid plants and animals cross species lines, blurring sharp lines between species.

``We understand evolution pretty well,'' said W. Ford Doolittle , a Darwin supporter and biologist at Dalhousie University in Halifax, Nova Scotia . ``It's just that it's more complex than Darwin imagined.''
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#29270 - 01/26/09 08:17 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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``This issue isn't going away,'' John West , a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute , wrote in an e-mail to his allies last May. ``Although Darwinists are doing their best to shut down and intimidate anyone who raises questions about neo-Darwinism, we still have free speech, and they can't prevent people from hearing about the debate in the public arena, no matter how hard they try.''

West is a liar. People are allowed to "raise questions." What they aren't permitted to do is present their religious objections as bona fide science in a public school classroom.

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#29278 - 01/27/09 04:59 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
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Loc: Australia
FF- That is a nice video as it has so any ideas, some of which I find very different from the usual points of view. The issue of 'modelling' is an area in which I have even less expertise than usual, but I find myself agreeing with you regarding the issue of the meaning of words. As I have revealed many times on this site, I am a pedant about the correct useage of words, but meaning is a slippery thing, and varies from person to person. Words and their meanings overlap, morphing into each other seamlessly, sometimes leaving us behind. However, and I think you allude to this, the meaning, the idea trying to find expression, remains the same. This is the reason why focussing on individual words to interpret concepts probably will not lead to understanding the underlying idea, especially in the absence of goodwill.

The idea is debatable, and constant. The vocabulary is fickle and changing. I do not think that debate is being shackled in this instance, but I do suspect that the idea and the meanings are being hi-jacked by people whose thinking is rigid and self-interested. I still do not know why it should be so especially in the US, and so far no one has answered this question!

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#29281 - 01/27/09 02:55 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Ellis]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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There are movements in Canada, England, among other places. Initially, it was almost entirely a fundamentalist Christian idea. Evolution is a threat to the authority of those who rely on literal interpretation of the Bible.

The U.S. has well-funded people who belong to certain religions and certain politico-cultural backgrounds that are willing to spend LOTS of money "defending the faith." These people have some heavy influence in the media and have been successful at confusing people sufficiently that they can tie in evolution to other social issues - abortion, atheism, communism, liberalism - and so on.

There is an entire "news station" that embodies the opposite of actual news. FOX has the same relation to 'news' that Pravda had in at the height of the cold war. Anyone who disagrees is an ivory tower liberal communist.

It's started here, but it's spreading to other places. Adnan Oktar has been able to tap into the Muslims in Europe, for example. If you're interested, you should try to do a little research on this fellow.



Edited by TheFallibleFiend (01/27/09 03:53 PM)

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#29303 - 01/29/09 07:32 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Ellis,
Another thing to consider:

This is not a debate in the scientific community. It is a debate in the political and cultural community, because of certain ramifications. But among scientists, the issue is decided. The evidence does not get shakier, but gets firmer and firmer every few years.

Creationists cannot win the debate in scientific circles, because there is no debate in scientific circles, and because scientists have enough actual knowledge that the typical sort of 'evidence' and arguments that creation followers accept is recognized as transparent nonsense.

But "winning" is not their immediate goal in the usual sense. Victory for them is confusing the issues sufficiently that reasonable things seem extremely improbable and highly unlikely things seem almost certain.







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#29305 - 01/30/09 12:14 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
It is interesting though that, even allowing for free speech and so on, that the whole creation myth is so very strong in the US and an absolute non-issue anywhere else. I wouldn't have heard about creationism in the press, on TV or in magazines here since that absurd museum was opened (by an Aussie I believe) showing happy cave people playing with dinosaurs!

I think that I will have to accept this phenomenom as a bizarre fact!

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#29314 - 01/31/09 03:37 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Ellis]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=126AFB53A6F002CC

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#29315 - 01/31/09 05:39 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Thanks for posting those videos. I'll read them when it gets a bit cooler (no a/c in the computer place at home!) However I do notice that the ridiculous idea about having to believe in creationism if you are a christian is trotted out again. This blinkered US attitude is what I am referring to. Many people who live elsewhere are able to be christian and reject the Creation Myth. Instead they see it as an allegory of the origin of humans, similar to the other creation myths of Hindus, Muslims, aboriginal Australians etc. There are many such myths, which attempt to explain the mystery. Evolution attempts to explain it with the backing of scientific observaton backed by facts. It is a theory which itself is evolving as new evidence emerges, unlike the Myths of the various religions and societies of pre-history. Elsewhere people have no difficulty with this. Surely one can be a christian and accept that humans evolved, as did the other life here.

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#29317 - 01/31/09 07:19 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Ellis]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
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"Surely one can be a christian and accept that humans evolved, as did the other life here. "
Many are. But a certain brand of fundamentalism very common in the U.S. insists otherwise.

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#29323 - 02/01/09 12:05 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
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"Why People Believe Strange Things" by Michael Shermer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T_jwq9ph8k


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#29328 - 02/01/09 10:49 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...

ERV (endogenous retrovirus) - evidence for common descent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IosyEXMz6d8


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#29340 - 02/03/09 02:36 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
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