Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Not-Quite-Science Forum Starting point of Universe Evidence for God

We are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ alone, not what we do. If we get past our foolish pride, then we can discover that wer are a wretched sinner in need of a Saviour; we can't do it on our own. Jesus Christ is that Savior; He died for us so that we may have life through His sacrifice. My prayer is that you guys would open up, get past your pride, and hear the good news of the gospel, and be saved.

The "getting past the pride" part is ironic coming from a christian boy set on schooling people 3 times his age.

Your religion teachers have taught you well. It's *out* pride that is the issue here. They send you out with a slingshot and no actual knowledge to battle against the mighty Goliaths.

Fundamentalist theology is antithetical to any sort of understanding. As long as you are in that cult, you are wasting your time discussing science. You haven't contributed one iota of understanding. You haven't gained one iota of understanding.

Science tries to discover the truth. Religion tries to define it.

We're wasting each other's time.

I was saved once. then i realised that religion had no answers, only demands for complete and total dedication to acceptance of someone elses beliefs, and answers. If it cant stand questions, its not your own belief. if its not your own belief, then its not something that you can accept. Salvation from someone else's faith is not worth anything.

this is a science forum, not a religions forum. please dont preach here.

Tim wrote:
"We are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ alone"

Sure we are Tim. And how do you know that? What is the source of your information. And yes I want specific references.

1. Which persons and their titles (for example my father and he is a brick layer)
2. Which books and who wrote them

Lets see the depth of your conviction.

Either that or demonstrate that you are not a hypocrite by recognizing that this is a science forum and it is off-topic to birng up your belief in the tooth fairy or the Easter Bunny too.

The apostle Paul wrote "That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9

The apostle Paul wrote in Romans 3:21-31 "But now aprt from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the rigteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of aith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith aprt from the works of the Law."

The apostle Paul again wrote in Ephesians 2:9 that "For by grace you have been saved through faith."

Our Lord and Savior, King and Messiah, Christ Jesus said, "Your faith has saved you," (Luke 7:50).

The great preacher and author of over 30 theological Christian books, Charles Suprgeon, said, "Saving faith is an immediate relation to Christ, accepting, receiving, resting upon Him alone, for justification, sanctification, and eternal life by virtue of God's grace."

Martin Luther , the reformer and author of the ninety-five theses, wrote a thesis entited, "Sola fide" which translated from Latin means "Faith alone"

Is that enough for you? If it isn't, I have many other quotes. Some from the Bible, some from pastors.

This is not a bible quote site. It's a science site. Do you have anything to contribute in the way of actual science? Or are you going to continue to contribute AWESOME religious blather and AWESOMELY erroneous "information" parrotted from AWESOMELY ignorant websites?

Tim wrote:
"The apostle Paul wrote"

Nonsense Tim ... children's Sunday School nonsense.

First off the Apostle Paul never wrote anything you've ever read. What you have read is the result of multiple mistranslations of an authorless book that claims to be a reflection of what Paul said or wrote. Lets get the facts straight here.

Remember I asked you for the specific names of books and their authors. You provided neither.

You are 16 years old and almost an adult capable of setting out on your own and having the right to vote. Hold yourself to a higher standard both intellectually and ethically.

If you think I'm kidding about the actual source of what you've been reading then expose yourself to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_of_Tarsus
and follow the links.

Pay special attention to the following:
"Paul's own surviving letters, and the narrative of Acts of the Apostles, which at several points draws from an eyewitness source (the so-called "we passages"). Problems with these sources include the following: Paul's surviving letters were written during a short period of his life (perhaps only between 50 and 58), and the authenticity of some is questioned, and certain parts of Acts have drawn suspicion (e.g., Paul's presence at the death of Stephen [7:58; 8:1' 22:20]).[citation needed] The apocryphal Acts of Paul and Thecla is usually dismissed by scholars as a 2nd century novel because it includes events that do not coincide with any of those recorded in either Acts or Paul's letters."

You have a lot to learn so you might want to start today.

It appears that Tim has a lot of growing up to do.

He claims to be here to learn about science but has so far demonstrated two things.

1. A lack of interest in anything involving science.
2. A lack of real understanding of his own religion.

Really rather sad when a 16 year old's ability to interact is more like that of a 12 year old.

Dan,
There but for the grace ...

Some forms of extreme cultish religion screw up your thinking process so bad that you are not even capable of holding a coherent thought.

Intellectual laziness is simple. Cults often reward intellectual laziness. When you reward it, you get more of it - exactly like Pavlov says. Understanding science takes more effort than simply talking about how awesome things are.

It's so much easier to be intellectually lazy than to do homework on the subject. It's easier to make extremely outrageous statements than a well-considered argument, especially if one doesn't have the intelligence or training to discern between the two.

a few years ago, my mother gave me a booklet that was suppose to help me avoid falling into cults. it gave a description of how to spot a cult. although it was written by the christian church, the description was of the chruch, so much that they had to add the disclaimer, "except the christian chruch" in several places.

basically what they were saying is that anything that resembled the church, except the church itself, was a cult. Any religion is basically a cult of some sort.

Interesting that IFF seems Tim the way I do: In a cult.

Sadly I think the internet may be his only exposure to adults who aren't trying to fill his brain with things that are just not true.

No doubt his parents will outwardly pray for me while inwardly hoping for a slow and painful demise.

*Disclaimer: Although this post might seem corny, I am actually sincere in what I am about to say; not sarcastic although it might look that way.
*Note to moderators: Don't erase this; this is going to be my last 'religious' post on this site.

Last night at church, I became humbled. I realized that I am arguing with people more than twice my age and although I'm telling them, they won't listen to me. I realized that I should give you more respect because you desrve it. The Bible says I'm to respect my elders because they would know more than me. And you guys do; you have arguments for all my facts.

I decided -and it wasn't because of what you guys said- that this 'debate' wasn't going anywhere; I would say something, then you would rebuke me because of the hardness of your hearts. I have gave all of you more than enough time and facts to have decided to follow Christ, but you have rejected it. Jesus told us believers to spread the good news to the gospel to the nations. I thought since you would have a good education, you would be smart enough to view my sayings with an open mind and not bias everything I said because of your situations and situations in life.

I thought you might feel a longing in your heart telling you that there's something more to this futile, worthless, vain life.

Because the 'debate' isn't going anywhere, I decided I'm stepping down at this forum, but I'll still occasionally go on.

God layed this final exortation on my heart last night. I don't know if it applies to any of you, but God told me that it's worth it, the gospel will not go forth in vain. God said, "Woe to those who deeply hide their plans from the Lord, and whose deeds are done in a dark place, and they say, 'Who sees us?' or 'Who knows us?' You turn things around! Shall not the potter be considered as equal with the clay, that which is made would say to its maker, 'He did not make me'; or what is formed say to him who formed it, 'He has no understanding?'

That is found in Isaiah 29:15-16 and Psalm 139 and quoted in Romans 9:20. The Bible says I'm supposed to love my enemies. And I do; I love you guys. Even DA; having him here has helped me study the Bible more to find quotes and facts. Although this might seem a paradox; to love everyone, it's not. I love you guys because Christ first loved us.

Jesus Christ loved us enough to sacrfice Himself on the cross for our sins for us to regain our eternal seperation from God. He loves me; someone who has broke all His Ten Commandments and who isn't perfect. He loves and has a plan for us all. So I love you because He first loved me.

"The Bible says I'm to respect my elders because they would know more than me. And you guys do; you have arguments for all my facts."
No. You have no facts. You have claims. You should respect us because we're your elders. We're not asking you to believe us. We're asking you find real facts and use real logic before you make claims about subject of which you know absolutely nothing.


"then you would rebuke me because of the hardness of your hearts."
No. You were rebuked because you offered facts that weren't facts and reasons that weren't logical or well-considered.

"I have gave all of you more than enough time and facts to have decided to follow Christ, but you have rejected it."
You provided no facts. You provided ill-supported opinions that you called facts.

Tim:

When you choose to follow a religion that makes bold statements about the way the physical world must be, the teachings of that religion are open to study by science. Fundamentalist Christianity makes a myriad of patently false statements about the workings of the universe and the history of Earth.

What you're asking scientists to do is abandon all knowledge and reason in order to be "saved." As Richard Pryor's character once said in a movie, years ago, "Who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes???"

If your religion is SO WRONG about the things we know about, how can you expect us to trust that its teachings regarding the great unknown have any validity at all?

Tim wrote:
"I am actually sincere in what I am about to say"

Sorry Tim but you are not a real person. You are a trained parrot. Not one thing you've posted so far consists of words I couldn't find in a bible school coloring book.

You may be sincere. But you are not real.

Tim wrote:
"although I'm telling them, they won't listen to me"

Oh we are listening to you. And we are giving you all of the importance you have earned. Are you really so sheltered that you don't think we were all once 16 ourselves? Are you really so sheltered that you don't think we have heard each and every argument you have made, literally word-for-word, many times before? It is time to put away the bible school coloring book and interact with adults as an adult. Or is thinking for yourself not allowed in your cult?

The fact is that people dont come to science forums to get preached to. they come here from many different religions (i know of a witch, an atheist, and at least one christian, and i think there is a jew here) to discuss science. Each of us believes that our religion (or lack of it) is what is best for us. If we want to discuss religions, there are many different forums to discuss them, not to mention real world locations. Im sorry if you feel that this takes away your ability to express yourself, but were not really willing to listen to a preacher. If you have some scientific information, well be more than happy to discuss it. But, you see, the point of discussion is that both sides must be willing to listen. If your busy preaching, you cant be able to listen.

Oh brother...

I was going to say something about fanatism, or maybe about being childish, but forget it...

Tim will wake up one day... just like the man that threw himself in the lions' cage screaming "if God exists, he will save me"... Just wonder what might have gone through that guy's mind as the fangs of the lions teared his spine...

Hi RoM:

You appear to be referring to a post by Ameranth where some idiot jums in a lions cage.

posted June 06, 2006 11:34
"KIEV (Reuters) - A man shouting that God would keep him safe was mauled to death by a lioness in Kiev zoo after he crept into the animal's enclosure, a zoo official said on Monday."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060605/od_nm/ukraine_lion_dc

By Ms A "Proof of no god, or something else?"

Not to be picky here but there is a big difference in the message as you present it and the way it was reported. The real story shows clearly the idiot believed there was a God and that his God would save him. Your quote makes it a test of sorts by IF there is a God he will save him. He never established that his God was listening! IF there was/is a God why should he save a non-believer? Of course the end result would have been the same either way because the lioness did not understand his language, it did not believe in God and worst of all she did not like idiots. She made an exception because she was hungry. Just one view.
jjw

G'day Tim,

So Gandhi has no place in heaven? And I guess suicide bombers do because they have been promised a place. And what about all those poor souls that have been on this planet for many thousands of years before they knew about Christianity or even God in the Christian form. That doesn't seem fair. So I think you've established that Gandhi would miss out, as would quite a few others that have done saintly things while on earth but didn't even know there was a Christ and you've also established that Jeffrey Dahmer, Al Bundy and Adolf Hitler are in Heaven because before they died they all accepted Christ. I'm not sure I want to be a member of a "club" that accepts the very worst of humanity simply because they believe.

If God is infinite and being God it must be, how does it create a finite universe at some point? If God was there forever, that means the time before the creation of a universe was infinite. If it was infinite then the creation of the universe could not occur.

However, if the universe is infinite, then God could not have created it because there is no "before" for the universe.

All of this sounds good but there is a flaw. God could be infinite and has created an infinite number of universes at regular (or even irregular intervals). Heaven would also have to be infinite because there would be an infinite number of beings in it, even if only a very few managed to get in for each universe created. Unless of course those souls only managed to go to heaven for the life of their particular universe. But that sort of says that God is happy to destroy absolutely those that have been rewarded by going to Heaven.

By the thinking you expressed, that the universe is finite and was created by God, then God must be finite as well or God has created an infinite number of universes which sort of puts a whole in your statement that the universe is finite. Of course if God is not infinite then it isn't much of a God - more like a Greek or Roman one.

All of this is to just point out that logic you used has the odd flaw. I see nothing wrong with having a God and an infinite universe. I don't see any proof for it but hey, if there was absolute proof of God, your idea that only those that believe go to heaven would be pretty lame. Faith is the belief in something in the absence of proof. If you want to attempt to prove the existence of God, I would suggest you don't have the faith to believe in God. That nicely leaves you out of heaven.


Regards


Richard