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In your view, how would the second mutation explanation be any different than the first one?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think that the second, third, fourth... mutations must occur right next to the first one. Is that what you're saying must happen? If so, why?

You also seem to think that all mutations are point mutations. Is that correct?

You also seem to think that there is an equal probability of a mutation occurring at any point on the genome. Is that correct?

soilguy posted:
In your view, how would the second mutation explanation be any different than the first one?

The odds of a second mutation occurring in such a way that it adds to a previous mutation so that it enhances the benefit of an organism is unlikely. ....but then again you already knew that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think that the second, third, fourth... mutations must occur right next to the first one. Is that what you're saying must happen? If so, why?

Sort of. The second mutation must effect a previous.
For example the mutation MUST occur in a a region of DNA that will effect a previous change. For instance a mutation to the tail will not effect the nose.

You also seem to think that all mutations are point mutations. Is that correct?

Mutation come in a varietry of flavors.....but the bottom line is that no matter how they occur, they must effect a previous change, WHICH is your problem as you have no explaination of how that will or could occur by a process of random chance.

You also seem to think that there is an equal probability of a mutation occurring at any point on the genome. Is that correct?

For the most point..especially if it is a beneficial mutation.

TheFallibleFiend....show me where it has been explained clearly to me and I will stop posting here.

If you can't, then you MUST retract your statement.

Balls in your court.

Troll-obyte says: " show me where it has been explained clearly to me and I will stop posting here."


Despite the fact I know he will not read this carefully, I'll repeat the following:

"However, now that this new set of genes is dominant, the birth of every set of offspring brings yet another opportunity for genes to be altered. The alterations can happen in a number of ways. (In some micro-organisms there is also gene exchange between them. This helps to explain why viruses and bacteria can adapt so quickly.)

This population with the new dominant gene then acquires another mutation eventually that confers even more advantage - probably that mutation has nothing to do with the first one. There may be several beneficial mutations (and many bad ones) before another mutation occurs that would add some benefit to the first beneficial mutation - but over time, there is no reason to think that this would not permit the development of new organs any more than there is cause to doubt that drops added to a cup would eventually fill it."

Once a beneficial gene enters the gene-pool, there is no regular mechanism for it to disappear other than mass-extinction. The question you ought to be asking yourself, if you had one iota of understanding and another iota of integrity is this: how could the mutations NOT accumulate?

"If you can't, then you MUST retract your statement."
I'll quit spouting intelligence when you quit spouting osteo-cranial nonsense.

I'm beginning to see where Trilobite is coming from. He assumes the whole history of the earth has been set up just so that he can appear and live in it for a while. Wow! I thought children were supposed to start moving away from the idea they are the centre of the universe by age three.

You see the reason why he demands a whole series of mathematically unlikely mutations? He has put the cart before the horse.

TheFallibleFiend presented the same old BS..."This population with the new dominant gene then acquires another mutation eventually that confers even more advantage"

Now TheFallibleFiend, just how does the popuation acquires another mutation?

Just because you say it does, doesn't mean it will...or can.

Mutations are happening all the time. Luckily if they alter a gene they are usuallyrecessive. Every day many humans are born with a harmful double recessive but medical science can often help these individuals.

I was thinking this through and I have a question. Why do we not start to fall apart when we get to the age where we are likely to have finished with procreation? What's to stop harmful mutations that affect us in later life from building up to the sorts of levels where we are basically crippled?

If beneficial mutations are frequent enough to produce something as astoundingly complex as a human, and harmful mutations are much more likely, then why do people survive so long?

I thought it could be that early hunter gatherers would be more vulnerable with crippled elders and would not survive as groups. But then these groups would possibly be better off with less mouths to feed, and people become old and slow anyway - so what disadvantage would a buildup of traits harmful to people, say, over 30 years old?

Blacknad.

That us indeed true...but rarely, oh so rarely are the beneficial.

In fact so rare that evolutionISM doesn't work.

So exactly how rare are they Triloblight? You seem to know, so let us in. Then demonstrate that it is impossible for beneficial mutations to create complex systems over time. Show us why it will not work. Remember how many creatures have existed since life began and therefore how many opportunities there have been for mutations and selection.

Then after that be honest - and tell us that you simply have an emotional problem with evolution. It just doesn't 'feel' right for you and you have no real scientific objection.

No rational objection!!!!

Your starting point is nothing to do with the evidence. Your starting point is probably that God did it in days. Your starting point is simply dishonest and your thinking is regressive and is likely more driven by insecurity and fear than by honest curiosity.

You don't realise how astoundingly ignorant you are on this subject, and the irony is that you actually think you are right and everyone who opposes the might of your evolutionary knowledge is mislead and ignorant and deceived.

Whenever the faithful come to this site they act like utter morons and when they can't prove their stupid points they resort to insults and threatening people with Hell etc.

I find it embarrassing to see Christians act this way.

And the funny thing is that if you just engaged in a real dialogue with real questions then people here would be all too eager to engage and explore the subject with you. They may even take your real objections seriously and explore them with you, if you were honest enough.

But as it is, you are yet another who comes here fixed and intransigent in your 'beliefs' and just want to make everyone accept your point of view. Even though it has been poorly thought out and has no actual integrity.

You are lucky people here engage with you at all, even if it is just to expose your nonsense.

Blacknad.

Blacknad, send me your home address so that I can mail you a quarter so that you can buy a clue.

You seemed to have forgotten that it is YOU EVOS who claim mutations add up over time...but when asked how it can possibly occur....I hear crickets.

chirp,
chirp.
chirp...

Why is that?

Triloblight,

I thought you might spend a few seconds reflecting upon what I had written. Obviously not.

There are three places the ignorant can go when they are challenged:

1. Carry on the failed argument regardless.

2. Resort to insults.

3. Stop to examine their thinking.

You stopped short of number 3.

And to top that, you don't even carry out number one effectively. I asked you questions and you come back with 'You Evos'.

Why do you assume the burden of proof is on the evolutionist? Oh yes I know, it's so you don't have to demonstrate any actual knowledge. You can just flail about and bait the 'nasty evos'.

And I know, better than you think, what drives your thinking on the subject. If you accept the evidence then God probably won't vanish in a puff of smoke, but your insecurity probably will.

Blacknad.

Blacknad asked: "Why do we not start to fall apart when we get to the age where we are likely to have finished with procreation? What's to stop harmful mutations that affect us in later life from building up to the sorts of levels where we are basically crippled?"

I think the short answer is that we do. I know I am! There is the theory that older people are wiser (perhaps not always) and they have helped groups with them survive difficult times. Therefore genes for longevity have been passed on even though they don't directly influence the number of offspring born. However they do influence the numbers of offspring that survive to breeding age. How's that?

Trilobyte. I happen to know Blacknad accepts there is a God. To call him an EVO is hardly an accurate description. On the subject you seem unable to get your head around I have pointed out many times that harmful mutations are eliminated, often before conception. Although beneficial mutations are few and far between they survive.

I have answered you, so you decided to stop responding to my posts and pretend they never happened.

What is the point of making untrue statements when anyone can take a look at the record of these conversations, and discover that you are being deceitful? Do you think everyone, aside from you, is an idiot?

Ahhh, because it's your theory.

Why do you evos keep refusing to post the answer?

Where have you answered me?
Remember claiming that you have doesn't make it so.

Once again I will make this offer to you....If you can present the post(s) where you answered the question I will cease from posting on this board.

My hunch is you can't.

"Why do you evos keep refusing to post the answer?"
Answers have been posted and have been made very clear to you repeatedly, however you respond like the typical creationst by ignoring answers that are inconvenient. Typically creationists will spout blather about lack of evidence when they haven't done their homework, or will call something illogical just because they don't understand it. In this way, you're pretty much true to form.

TheFallibleFiend posted:
Answers have been posted and have been made very clear to you repeatedly

Where?


Once again I will make this offer to you....If you can present the post(s) where you answered the question I will cease from posting on this board.

trilobyte, your question HAS been answered, repeatedly and politely. If you are so stubborn as to refuse to see the truth when it's staring you in the face perhaps you'd better find another place to post your nonsense.

Amaranth

Trilobite. TheFallableFiend has summed up how evolution works on the site dealing with Galapagos finches. Research on these finches goes a long way towards explainung what you seem unwilling to understand about how mutations lead to evolution. It would make sense if we continued the argument on that site rather than cluttering up every site dealing with the subject.