Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Not-Quite-Science Forum Just the right spot...

The game is over until you are willing to meet me half way so you've got it backward. I'm tired of doing your research for you just to have it misrepresented. You substantiate that there is any support for what you wrote which we both know you can not do.

roflol

Just for the record, post 1 has not been answered.

My thoughts are that the evos don't really know.

Just how do those random mutations have the ability to occur again and again in just the right place over and over many, many times so that a new body part, organ or appendage is formed?

Why do you evos shy away fromt his question?

An intellectually lazy person asked:

"What are the odds of a RANDOM mutation occurring in just the right spot in the DNA many, many times, over and over again untill something like the dolphins echo-location system is formed?"

If he had done one iota of anything even remotely resembly homework, he would realize this is an idiotic question. It's actually a GOOD question from, say, a small child, or a teenager like Tim who really doesn't know anything about it.

But the asker's sciolism intends to convey that he has some special insight into the question ... that the "evos" know the answer, but they're afraid of the facts.

Of course, most of the people on this forum have actually done something akin to real homework on the subject, but fortunately he asker's abject ignorance prevent him from being embarrassed.

As I realize he will *never* do an honest day's homework on the subject, I will attempt to answer his question as I would for a teenager whose incompetent mentors never taught him how to look things up.

Let's repeat the question.
"What are the odds of a RANDOM mutation occurring in just the right spot in the DNA many, many times, over and over again untill something like the dolphins echo-location system is formed?"

The answer is "The question is nonsense." Your question has the tacit assumption that the echo-location system was the result of a planned process. If that is not an underlying assumption, then your question is idiotic.

First, many different mutations and selections might have been successful that might have yielded other organs equally as complex that might have produced advanage. Certainly this actually happened for all descendent species of the same common ancestor.

Second, there are multiple paths to similar structures.

Do your homework and you won't sound like a pompous ignoramous.

Troglodyte, it appears that you are having trouble coming to grips with the concept of evolution. Perhaps if you substitute the term "variation" for "mutation" it would be easier to fathom. Also, may I recommend a book entitled "The Song of the Dodo" by David Quammen?

to try to get it as simple as possible. there are thousands of variations in that one spot. many dont survive. others cause the animal to not be able to compete as effectively and thus are elimiated. the ones that dont do anything or improve the animals chances are the ones that get pass along to the next generation.

its not like the ones in that one area are the only ones that are haveing variations either.

heres an example.

lets take the one that created insulin. when it was created there was likely several others that came along first that cause the part to creat a poison, which killed the host. others did improve the host, but left it stirile. others did nothing and got pass along, but then the one that created insulin came along and was such an improvement that the others died out.

It appears that the evos on this board simply assume mutations happen and add up.

Oncer again no explaination is given.

Sure they always go to the first level claiming a mutation occurs then gets incorporated into the population...but then fall short of a second, third, fourth, fith and so on random mutation occurring and addiding to the last.

wimpman posted:
Troglodyte, it appears that you are having trouble coming to grips with the concept of evolution. Perhaps if you substitute the term "variation" for "mutation" it would be easier to fathom.

[b]Variation has limits.
Muutations are required to exceed the limit of varialtion.

they are given, you are just not willing to see them.

each time a variation occurs it changes that limit just a little. later after several variations have occured, it has surpassed the point where the limit was in the beginning.

dehammer posted:
each time a variation occurs it changes that limit just a little. later after several variations have occured, it has surpassed the point where the limit was in the beginning.

Wrong.
If you have red and green paint and mix them in different proportions you will only get the shades avialable from the mixing of red and green. There is a limited variation. It's kinda like micro-evolution.

Now if you want macro-evolution..so to speak... you need to add a third color that allows you to exceed the variation lmits set by the red and green.

The evo use mutations to add to the variations.
The problem is they have no working model besides MAGIC MUTATIONS that allows them to add up over time.

"The problem is they have no working model besides MAGIC MUTATIONS that allows them to add up over time."

Firstly, we do not need a working model. There is no working model for gravity when Richard Feynman wrote his Lectures on Physics. That didn't make gravitation any lesser as a theory and a fact. So your point is irrelevant.

Secondly, actually there *IS* a model for how mutations occur and accumulate. Just because you are too lazy and dishonest to look into the subject doesn't make it magical. So your point is false.

Do some honest homework on the subject.

what does two colors of paint have to do with the extreamly large possiblities of geneitics.

basically with this post your informing everyone that you are not only out in left field, but your wearing hockey pants, football helmet, a basket ball jersey, and track shoes, and carrying a javelin.

"Secondly, actually there *IS* a model for how mutations occur and accumulate. Just because you are too lazy and dishonest to look into the subject doesn't make it magical. So your point is false."

I'll tell you what TheFallibleFiend...either put up, or shut up.

Got it?

dehammer...please stop being an idiot.

"what does two colors of paint have to do with the extreamly large possiblities of geneitics. "

The post was an "analogy'.

It clearly showed how additional material is needed to move beyond the limits of variation in an already established gene pool...but you semed to be to stupid to catch on.

Once again I ask thet you evos stop doing the Mr. Bojangles and answer the questions.

"I'll tell you what TheFallibleFiend...either put up, or shut up."
The irony meter just went off the scale. I'll spoon-feed you once. For the last time, your question is stupid and betrays a complete misunderstanding of what evolution is and how it works. Suppose I blindfold you and put you on a train. At every station someone takes you off and puts you on another random train. You somehow end up in the town your grand dad was born in and think, "WOW! what are the odds!" The thing is no matter where you ended up you would be saying what are the odds? And those are the wrong odds. You don't figure the probability as 1 out of N. It's M out of N where we don't know the M, but we *know* it isn't 1.

Once again I ask that you actually do some homework and use your head for something besides rectal plug.

Do a search on: gene inversion duplication insertion deletion
http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/biobk/BioBookgeninteract.html#Chromosome%20abnormalities
These are causes of mutations.

The mechanism for the accretion of these mutations is - get this: natural selection. It's mind-boggling that a person so well-informed as yourself would not have heard of the term.

Natural Selection pressure creates a ratcheting effect which can model with computer programs. (In fact I have done so.)

However, you need to read the following page very carefully:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/misconceptions_faq.php#a3

The biggest impediment to accepting evolution is in understanding it. Usually a person who rejects evolution rejects it for one of the mythological reasons based on a false idea of what evolution is and how it works.


"Got it?"

What I've got is that you are intellectually lazy and cowardly.

no, i caught it, but what you dont seem to be willing to grasp is there are the equivalent of thousands of shades of colors from ultraviolet to infrared in the paint shop of evolution. Why not open you mind a tiny fraction to let a little bit of air get in, its quite stale in there.

Dehammer,
Cut it with the insults or I'll start editing your posts.

Consider yourself warned.

Amaranth
Moderator

Dehammer posted:
no, i caught it, but what you dont seem to be willing to grasp is there are the equivalent of thousands of shades of colors from ultraviolet to infrared in the paint shop of evolution.

...sooooooooooo, are you claiming that there is enough genetic information...variation... in a worm to form a man?

Or, are you saying that the worm has a limited number of variations?

TheFallibleFiend, I visited your links and found NOTHING explaining how mutation can add up.

Perhaps I missed the sentance that tells us how it is acheived. Personally I don't think I did...but if I did would you be so kind as to cut and paste that portion?

Thanks in advance.