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#14498 - 06/07/06 03:34 AM Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
Anonymous
Unregistered


"KIEV (Reuters) - A man shouting that God would keep him safe was mauled to death by a lioness in Kiev zoo after he crept into the animal's enclosure, a zoo official said on Monday."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060605/od_nm/ukraine_lion_dc

Proof of no god, or something else?

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.
#14499 - 06/07/06 04:19 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
MBroderick Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/06/06
Posts: 4
Proof that God knows whats best...?

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#14500 - 06/07/06 04:49 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Proof that lions are not as stupid as god fearing men.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14501 - 06/07/06 05:11 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
if i remember the story correctly, god had a plan for the one that entered the lions den. appearantly god did not have any more use for this guy.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#14502 - 06/07/06 06:07 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
jjw Offline
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Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Amaranth:

That is a bloody good story.

I suppose the ready answer is that the lioness was an atheist and did not fear the mad mans god. Or possibly the lioness did not understand the fools language and did not know god was invoked.

This may be the explanation of something they taught me in grammar school. ?Do not take gods name in vain?. The jumper did not understand that phrase either.

jjw

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#14503 - 06/07/06 08:59 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"appearantly god did not have any more use for this guy."

Neither did the lion. And the lion obviously didn't care about the man's religious psychosis.

Seems to me I posted something about a similar occurance at another zoo last year. I think perhaps we have a way to solve the problem of an endangered species and helping our Christian brothers test their faith.

I propose that ALL self-proclaimed fundamentalist Christians test their faith ... preferably soon.
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DA Morgan

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#14504 - 06/08/06 09:25 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
get real. the lion had a lot more use for the man .. it was hungry, he was fool... i mean food.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#14505 - 06/09/06 12:48 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
jjw Offline
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Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
dehammer you are right on.

He was "fool food".

Sushi for tigers>

jjw

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#14506 - 06/16/06 05:59 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
It's proof that if God exists, its nature is not as this man hypothesized.
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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#14507 - 06/16/06 06:07 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
How right you are soilguy. If results are used as a test of intent ... he's always loved blood and gore.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14508 - 06/17/06 03:11 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
I am curious Soilguy, do you think that the commenst of DA bore any relationship to what you commented?

Are we all speking the same language?
jjw

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#14509 - 06/17/06 03:42 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
I am curious jjw004. What does this have to do with the topic.

And my statement relates specifically to soilguy's statement: "its nature is not as this man hypothesized." And I am in agreement. Some hypothesize a god of love and foregiveness while the true nature is one of blood and vengence.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14510 - 06/17/06 11:14 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Here is off topic:

Happy father's day DA.
jjw

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#14511 - 06/29/06 08:37 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:
Originally posted by jjw004:
I am curious Soilguy, do you think that the commenst of DA bore any relationship to what you commented?

Are we all speking the same language?
jjw
Yes, but I wouldn't draw the same conclusion, necessarily.

If you want to consider the idea that there's a supreme creator of us all, evidence would make me reject the notion that it's got some parent-like relationship with us.

Suppose there was a relationship like that of a shepherd to his sheep, or a herdsman to his cattle. From the sheep perspective, the shepherd is a gore-loving tyrant. I don't think the shepherd would consider himself that way, though.
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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#14512 - 07/01/06 04:05 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
anyman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 134
this is proof of nothing more than that the guy was an idiot that doesn't (didn't now) understand either the book or the god of the book that he thought to call on

the age of the miraculous is a relic of the past

in their day, miracles were powerful, attention catching, and very real (including virgin birth, walking on water, and resurrection)

but that time has now gone by

god still works among us and cares for us individually but he now does so via his providence

snake handlers, tongue speakers, and bozos that invade lion territories calling on his name...beware

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#14513 - 07/01/06 06:25 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
anyman wrote:
"but that time has now gone by"

Yeah. It ended with the invention of writing, printing, photography, and other methods by which truth can be reliably transferred between generations.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14514 - 07/01/06 01:51 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
anyman Offline
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Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 134
Yeah. It ended with the invention of writing, printing, photography, and other methods by which truth can be reliably transferred between generations. --dano

not exactly...writing preceded the close of the miraculous era by more than a couple of millennia (actually several but the earlier evidence was probably lost in the flood...although some of adam's writings may have survived and been passed down to moses, but we probably won't be able to be sure about that until...that day)

printing ~1350yrs after the close of the that era

photography ~1700+yrs afterward

so no...you missed on all counts

none of those things was even mildly associated with the passing of that era...it was determined by the completion of the book at the end of the first century

the good news is...we all gonna know the truth one day coming

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#14515 - 07/03/06 12:28 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
anyman wrote:
"not exactly...writing preceded the close of the miraculous era by more than a couple of millennia"

Yes and no. Writing among the power-elite existed. Writing was the sole providence of the princes and the priests. Women were not taught to read nor were the common folks. You might want to look at the demise of religious miracles juxtaposed with literacy rates.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14516 - 07/05/06 08:11 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:
Originally posted by anyman:
the age of the miraculous is a relic of the past

in their day, miracles were powerful, attention catching, and very real (including virgin birth, walking on water, and resurrection)

but that time has now gone by

god still works among us and cares for us individually but he now does so via his providence

snake handlers, tongue speakers, and bozos that invade lion territories calling on his name...beware
So you think magic was rampant a couple thousand years ago, but it's over now?
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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#14517 - 07/06/06 01:16 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
the same magic that existed then exist now. the difference is that christians began claiming it was the devils work. then they began to kill people who did it.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#14518 - 07/06/06 03:26 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
There was not magic.
There is no magic.
There will never be any magic.

Unless you define magic as trickery, or fraud, or technology that the magician controls and the audience doesn't understand.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14519 - 07/06/06 05:48 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
believe that if you will, but there is more to this universe than can be explained by our science. until somethings can be, they will be called magic. Its a good enough name for it as anything else that exist today.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#14520 - 07/06/06 06:20 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by dehammer:
believe that if you will, but there is more to this universe than can be explained by our science. until somethings can be, they will be called magic. Its a good enough name for it as anything else that exist today.
I couldn't agree with you more.

"Amaranth"

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#14521 - 07/06/06 08:38 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"but there is more to this universe than can be explained by our science"

I don't. Either of you. Name a single thing of which you are aware that is beyond the reach of science to explain: Be specific.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14522 - 07/06/06 09:19 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
There's no magic. There's only stuff we don't know about.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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#14523 - 07/06/06 10:32 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
But there is stupidity ... big gobs of it ... magic? Never seen it ... never will.

But it will be interesting to see if either dehummer or rose can point to a single specific example.

And yes I have a very sharp scalpel in my drawer ready for the dissection.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14524 - 07/07/06 12:28 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here's an example from my life, rather my mother's life. I could choose many other incidents, but this one is the least painful for me.

Two weeks before she delivered her fourth child, my mother had a dream about the delivery. In her dream she saw a doctor she did not know, and in her dream she was telling my father she was sorry about the loss of the baby. Her brother had the same dream as well.

Two weeks later the events unfolded just as she had dreamed them; her regular doctor was not on hand and the child was born dead. She knew the doctor from her dream, and the nurse as well. All people in the dream were in her room just as she had foreseen it.

Now explain that with Science and Physics if you can. I can vouch for the veracity of the person who related the story to me. It happened. What can you say in explanation?

These kind of dreams are relatively common events in our family, foretelling future events that actually happen just as we dreamed them. Sometimes the dreams occur months before the events, sometimes only a few days. Can Science explain them? No, not at present. Does that mean they aren't real? How do we know what reality is? I know I'm not crazy. But I still get premonitions like the one I related earlier. It's part of who I am, what I am. I've learned to live with it.

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#14525 - 07/07/06 12:37 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
Blacknad Offline
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Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Wow. That's some scalpel you're going to need Dan ;-)

Blacknad.

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#14526 - 07/07/06 04:19 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
when i was in-service, i had a parachuting accident. for the most part there was little permeate damage, only thing noticed at the time was a fracture in one of the x rays that could not be verified. years later it was discovered that that fracture had caused the bone (a small one) to heal at a slight angle. unfortunately there was also a major nerve running along it. the bone rubbed on the nerve until it damaged the sheath. i was told i would either have to have surgery to remove it one day, which would mean i would have limited mobility of that foot (it was small but important somehow) or i would lose the feeling in that part of the foot. since it was not an immediate threat, i held off until i had to make that decision, handling the pain and the occasional inability (short term) to walk with out a crouch. I reached a point where i was taking enough hydrocodiene that i should have been unconscious most of the time, yet it barely phased the pain. At that time i was referred to an alternative healing clinic run by a preacher. After she learned i was a Wiccan, she taught me the healing touch. shortly afterwords, the bone was "inexplicably" spontaneously reshaped. it no longer presses on that nerve and i will not have to have the surgery, ever. i have not used hydrocodiene since. scientifically, it would have required surgery of some type to change that bone, since it had healed and was not (according to the body) damaged. the doctors have yet to come up with an explanation, other than, "there are mechanics in the body we don't know of or understand." that to me is magic. maybe one day there will be an explanation. but for now, the only name is magic.

also, i too have occasional premonitions.


dissect it all you want. something exist that we cant explain.

Quote:
soilguy 07-06-2006 04:19
There's no magic. There's only stuff we don't know about.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
"you say 'toe ma (long a) toe', i say 'toe ma (short a) toe'
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#14527 - 07/07/06 05:18 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Thanks for the example Rose but no need to worry about whether the scalpel is sharp enough: It is.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3077505
http://science.howstuffworks.com/dream10.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premonitions

Plenty more where these came from.

A coincidence is not magic. And this is likely no coincidence. It is, in fact, rather reasonable that a pregnant woman's body knows at some level what is happening inside. Where's the magic?
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14528 - 07/07/06 05:49 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
Anonymous
Unregistered


There was nothing wrong with the baby. During labor the umbilical cord became compressed and deprived the oxygen supply to the brain, thus causing brain death. This happened in the space of a few hours. No way could there have been any foreknowledge of the problem, other than that the umbilical cord was long and coiled around the neck and over the head of the fetus as labor began. Some coincidence.

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#14529 - 07/07/06 08:19 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
people that dont believe in magic will never see it, not because it is not there, but because their mind will not allow them to see things that they cant explain or deal with. the human mind is fabulous in its ability to rationalize things it is not able to deal with.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#14530 - 07/07/06 10:25 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
Blacknad Offline
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Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
QUOTE]Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Thanks for the example Rose but no need to worry about whether the scalpel is sharp enough: It is.[/QUOTE]

Dan, you obviously see yourself as a surgeon wielding a keen scalpel and skilfully cutting away the tumours of delusion from the human experience.

Your response to this, however, has all the finesse of a gorilla brandishing a butter knife.

??it is possible that the human mind is capable of an extraordinary feat of reasoning to produce an accurate view of the future.?

Is that it? ?It is possible??

Of course it?s possible. But does it account for the type of premonition that Amaranth recounted? Hardly. Does it account for the fact that the Doctor and Nurse were seen in the dream and then recognised physically during the delivery? Again, no. But you never attempted to deal with that aspect.

The second website you linked to did nothing to support your position and, au contraire, seemed to support the idea of premonition. You should probably read the stuff you find with Google a little more thoroughly to avoid further own goals. And of course you are going to find material to support your cause if you really want it ? the diffence between the following Google searches:

1. Premonition is rubbish.
2. Premonitions defies explanation.

Okay, you didn?t search like that but the principle is that you come to it all with a prior subjective perception that premonition is a process explainable by the brains ability to knit together scenes that are an outworking of inner stress & tension. So you ignore anything that conflicts with this ? including aspects of Amaranth?s story that you ignored or glossed over that seemed to involve a very accurate predictive quality that would asolutely defy probability.

For myself, I told you once before that my Step Father had been involved in a couple of exorcisms and has recounted seeing heavy furniture floating around a room. His reliability is not under question and he was previously a qualified engineer and not prone to flights of fancy where physics is concerned.

Dan, your reaction to these experiences comes out of the paradigm you subscribe to. Namely that there is naught but particles interacting. So you view every experience through that filter.

What?s more, some of these things that may have a reasonable explanation are discounted because, as yet, our understanding of the universe is not complete enough to encompass them. So you are simply not willing to consider them and will reject them as lies, delusions or attempt to give them more mundane explanations, even if that doesn?t effectively explain them (i.e. Amaranth?s experiences). It is blinkered thinking.

No offense meant Dan. Just enjoying the rough and tumble of healthy debate.

Blacknad.

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#14531 - 07/07/06 10:31 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Quote:
Originally posted by dehammer:
People that dont believe in magic will never see it, not because it is not there, but because their mind will not allow them to see things that they cant explain or deal with. The human mind is fabulous in its ability to rationalize things it is not able to deal with.
Well said.

A Christian and a Wiccan agreeing? Unheard of laugh

Blacknad.

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#14532 - 07/07/06 04:18 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by Blacknad:
Quote:
Originally posted by dehammer:
People that dont believe in magic will never see it, not because it is not there, but because their mind will not allow them to see things that they cant explain or deal with. The human mind is fabulous in its ability to rationalize things it is not able to deal with.
Well said.

A Christian and a Wiccan agreeing? Unheard of laugh

Blacknad.
now that has to be magic laugh
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#14533 - 07/07/06 07:01 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad and dehammer wrote:
"A Christian and a Wiccan agreeing? Unheard of

now that has to be magic"


No miracle.
No magic.
No doubt you can find someone that believes in the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy that will agree with you too.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14534 - 07/07/06 07:05 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
To be honest, I have a few "magical" anecdotes to offer up, too. However, I still say they fall into the "stuff we don't know about," category. Some can also just be coincidences.

I've gotta run now, but if you want to hear them sometime, I'll post.
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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#14535 - 07/07/06 08:55 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Not to worry. I have a list myself. Virtual particles, neutrino oscillations, dark matter, dark energy, not knowing the last digit of Pi.

But they are not magic.
They are just as-yet unexplained to my satisfaction.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14536 - 07/08/06 03:35 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Blacknad and dehammer wrote:
"A Christian and a Wiccan agreeing? Unheard of

now that has to be magic"


No miracle.
No magic.
No doubt you can find someone that believes in the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy that will agree with you too.
one think i will not have any trouble finding someone to agree with is that you cant tell a joke from a real statement. he and i were shareing a joke on religions there in case you dont know.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#14537 - 07/08/06 03:41 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by soilguy:
To be honest, I have a few "magical" anecdotes to offer up, too. However, I still say they fall into the "stuff we don't know about," category. Some can also just be coincidences.

I've gotta run now, but if you want to hear them sometime, I'll post.
call it what you want, but when a wiccan send energy into the universe in the form of a spell and something that should not happens does so in the way the spell was sent, you will have trouble convincing the wiccan he or she did not have anything to do with it.

the same can be said if a christian sends for a prayer and something that should not happen does. most coincidences are just things that are connected in someway we don't know of. an atheist would say that that was just happenstance, but one who does not believe in coincidences will see other things.

we all see the truths that we are able to see.

an atheist will say its just coincidences, that magic does not exist.

a wiccan will say that its magic, that coincidences don't exist.

who really can say which of these two are right.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#14538 - 07/08/06 03:43 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Not to worry. I have a list myself. Virtual particles, neutrino oscillations, dark matter, dark energy, not knowing the last digit of Pi.

But they are not magic.
They are just as-yet unexplained to my satisfaction.
your right none of these are magic. they are science. wiether or not they are explained to your satisfaction or not, they are still explained, or at least known of.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#14539 - 07/10/06 06:31 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
In the course of events DA challenges us:


posted July 06, 2006 01:38

dehammer wrote:
"but there is more to this universe than can be explained by our science"

"Name a single thing of which you are aware that is beyond the reach of science to explain: Be specific."
DA Morgan

One suggested science stumbler:

"Science can not explain why men have nipples"
amoung other things.
jjw

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#14540 - 07/10/06 09:10 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Quote:
Originally posted by jjw004:
"Science can not explain why men have nipples"
amoung other things.
jjw
Sorry Jim, it probably can.

"Extreme stress combined with demanding physical activity and a shortage of food has also been known to cause male lactation. The phenomenon was first studied in survivors of the liberated Nazi concentration camps after World War II. Some American POWs returning from the Korean and Vietnam Wars also experienced male lactation.
The phenomenon of male lactation occurs in some non-human species, and the lactating males may assist in the nursing of their infants. One species of fruit bat, the Dayak fruit bat (Dyacopterus spadiceus), is notable for this reason. According to several sources, male lactation and even nursing have occasionally been observed in humans."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_lactation

Blacknad.

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#14541 - 07/10/06 09:49 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Hi Blacknad:

You are correct. I used that same argument in response to DA in another post where he was blaming somebodies god for the unnecessary equipment. Your data is much more specific. All I relied on was "believe it or not?".

The point is that DA has always argued as if it could only be god's error to give man nipples- hence science can not explain it. You are giving him an out of his quandry, but well done.

That still leaves open the issue of WHY? The fact that they may work at times is not proof that working nipples had an intended use for men.
jjw

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#14542 - 07/10/06 10:25 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Evolution has no problem explaining why male mammals have nipples.

Biblical creation has no way to explain it.

And if every they do come up with some nonsense explanation ... we can always discuss a number of human organs that perform no function ... and numerous other examples.
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#14543 - 07/10/06 11:22 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
Blacknad Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Biblical creation has no way to explain it.
Only if you believe in literal 6 day creation. Most Christians I know are firmly in the theistic evolution camp.

Blacknad.

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#14544 - 07/11/06 01:05 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
jjw Offline
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On a scientific forum the most important factor for credibility is consistency.

DA you shock me:

"Evolution has no problem explaining why male mammals have nipples.

Biblical creation has no way to explain it."

You have been blaming gods errors for mans nipples and now you say that "religion" can not explain but science can. That is so disjointed that it is unworthy of any of us; even when we are less than sober!
Do you want a replay of your posted arguements?
Very entertaining.
jjw

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#14545 - 07/11/06 02:11 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Evolution can easily explain why a plant or animal might contain vestiges of earlier development.

"phylogeny capitulates ontogeny"

On the other hand if one believes in a Judeo-Christian-Islamic god one is left trying to explain away mistakes and errors in judgement.

Only a moron would have created human females with a biology leading to an extraordinarily high incidence of death during childbirth.
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#14546 - 07/11/06 05:05 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by jjw004:
That still leaves open the issue of WHY? The fact that they may work at times is not proof that working nipples had an intended use for men.
jjw
actually it does. in early evolution, any tiny thing that would give one species an advantage aided that species in becoming dominate. in early species that did not have it possible for both male and female to nurse the young were at a disadvantage when food was short, which was frequent. likely most species that did not have that advantage died out early, so all the ancestors of todays animals, including the human body, have that advantage.
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#14547 - 07/11/06 05:08 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Evolution has no problem explaining why male mammals have nipples.

Biblical creation has no way to explain it.

And if every they do come up with some nonsense explanation ... we can always discuss a number of human organs that perform no function ... and numerous other examples.
biblical creation cant explain dinasour bones being so old, but does that have anything to do with reality? most people that believe in the bible dont believe that the timing of the book is an exact time, only the hardcore fundimentalist do. fortuantely most other religions dont have a problem with the timing.

Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Only a moron would have created human females with a biology leading to an extraordinarily high incidence of death during childbirth.
IF you believe the bible, you would beleive that the high incidences of death during childbirth, and the various diseases are not the result of gods designs, but of eve's biting the apple of knowledge, then sharing it with adam. THEY (the christians) already have that question answered for them.
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#14548 - 07/11/06 05:14 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Loc: Seattle, WA
Either the bible is the word of god and fact based or it is a fabrication created by falliable humans. You can't have it both ways just because it is convenient and allows you to dodge the implications.

The timing problem exists in all Judeo-Christian-Islamic theology. You either demand the creation of the universe in six days or you say it is untrue. Leaving open the possibility that every other word, too, is untrue.
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#14549 - 07/11/06 05:33 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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roflol. ever heard of parables. the bible is full of them. parables are the word too, just no one expects them to be varifyable facts. many people believe the story of creation was a parable.
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#14550 - 07/11/06 09:30 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
Blacknad Offline
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Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
The timing problem exists in all Judeo-Christian-Islamic theology. You either demand the creation of the universe in six days or you say it is untrue. Leaving open the possibility that every other word, too, is untrue.
I am not going to get drawn into lengthy religious arguments but this is simply untrue.

In the 'Out of Africa...' post you said:

Quote:
DA Morgan wrote - "Fascinating really. Astronomers, biologists, physicists, and mathematicians don't teach scripture. But for 25 pence every clergyman on the planet feels qualified to discuss evolution and physics."
And now for 25 pence we have a scientist who feels qualified to discuss what is or isn't allegory in scripture - despite having no real knowledge of ancient literary conventions.

Blacknad.

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#14551 - 07/11/06 04:25 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Yes dehammer I've heard of parables. Ever hear of lies?

Blacknad I am not discussing scripture. I dismiss it as the contrived invention of humans. My point is simply this:

Science:
It either is, as advertised, a useful tool of explaining and predicting the behaviour of natural systems (galaxies to protons) or it is a crock.

Religion:
It is either, as advertised, the divinely inspired word of god or it is a crock.

The standard is the same. I am putting your feet to the fire and saying hypocrisy is hypocrisy. You are holding science to one standard while excusing two thousand years of historical reality.
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#14552 - 07/12/06 07:06 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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Posts: 1089
science is about improving the body and the world.

religion is about improving the soul.

science has to work only on facts that are known and proven, and theories based on those facts.

religion is not about facts, it about beliefs. beliefs cant be proven. they have to be accepted. that also include parable, which are stories to teach a lesson. the lesson of the creation is that something created the universe, which the bible calls god. by teaching that, it can later teach that god is omnimpotent. how can god be omnipotent if he did not create the universe.

the thing is, as you point out, its the inspired word. meaning that it was actually written by a man based on what he understood of gods word. try to explain the big bang to someone 500 year bc. if they got it visually, it would be written precisely like the bible was. According to one theory, genesis was written over 7 days. which is how the description of it taking 7 days to make the earth came about. If god had given the present scientific understanding of the creation to someone as scientifically backwords as a sheperd of moses's time and then was directed to explain it in his own words, do you really think he would use scientifically precise words?
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#14553 - 07/12/06 05:01 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"science is about improving the body and the world."

That is a crock. Technology perhaps: But no serious scientist would sign onto such nonsense. One does not study the spectra of supernovae to improve either.

The rest of what you posted is of equal value.
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#14554 - 07/12/06 07:20 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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either you must not know a lot of scientists or there are not many scientist that you would consider serious scientist. studying the skys, as well as almost every other science (i cant think of any that dont), leads to better understanding of earth. few sciences dont aid our understanding of our planet, or ourselfs. If nothing else, it helps us to understand why we have a drive to go there. why else would they study photos hours on end, knowing that few would ever know what they are doing, and even fewer would understand if they did.

as far as the rest, thank you for noticing how valueable it is.

of course since you did not write it, you dont believe it has any value at all. no one but you can write any truths, :rolleyes: can they?
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#14555 - 07/28/06 01:40 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
<SARCASM>
You are correct, of course, dehammer. There are no scientists at the University of Washington. Or at Stanford. Or at Cal Berkeley. Or at Argonne National Laboratory. Or at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. Or at Batelle.
</SARCASM>

Here's your gold star.
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#14556 - 07/28/06 01:49 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
<sarcasm>
of course your right. none of those scientist have even the slight desire to aid humanity. </sarcasm>

i happen to have met a few of the ones that were at LLNL many years ago. The program i was in at tsti went there to find out somethings about their work with lasers. IF you really believe that those people had no interest in aiding humanity, they you really are as.... im not going down that line. Lets just say you have no idea of what your talking about when you claim they are not trying to improve the world. If you really believe that then i guess there really arent any real scientist in the university of washington for you to have met. Otherwise you would know better. im glad i live in the real world instead of your dark and lifeless one.
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#14557 - 07/28/06 10:11 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
I have personal knowledge of what some of those scientists are thinking as I've been to all of them in the last year.

What I have no knowledge or evidence of is whether you are.

Read a book.
Post a reference.
Support a statement.
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DA Morgan

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#14558 - 07/28/06 10:38 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
yea, right, were suppose to beleive someone who changes his story with every post?

believe if you want (unlikely) that no scientist cares for making the world better. i know better than to believe that.
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the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#14559 - 07/28/06 11:18 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
This is a science forum.

Science uses references to support statements.

I provide references.
I post with my real name.
Everyone here knows where I am employed.

You pontificate while hiding somewhere in Texas, claiming to be an adult, and claiming to have more than a K-12 education. That adds to your credibility?

Post a reference that supports anything you have ever actually written here?
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DA Morgan

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#14560 - 07/28/06 11:56 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
if you believe that scientist have no interest in improving the earth and mankind, prove it. show us a statement by any scientist that does not have the interest of increasing the knowledge of the human race, improveing the planet or improveing the human condition.

you cant because anyone that did that would not want to let anyone know what he was studing.
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the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#14561 - 07/29/06 05:41 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
I asked for references you ignored the request. YOYO yet again.
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DA Morgan

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#14562 - 07/29/06 06:09 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
and i see you have none claiming that all scientist dont do research to aid humanity. all it takes is reading ANY thing about them and youll know, that is the major reason for it all. now, unless you come up with some reason why all the scientist in the world are suddenly so antisocial as to be trying to destroy the world, im going to ignore any more post like the last.
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