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#14518 - 07/06/06 03:26 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
There was not magic.
There is no magic.
There will never be any magic.

Unless you define magic as trickery, or fraud, or technology that the magician controls and the audience doesn't understand.
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#14519 - 07/06/06 05:48 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
believe that if you will, but there is more to this universe than can be explained by our science. until somethings can be, they will be called magic. Its a good enough name for it as anything else that exist today.
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the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#14520 - 07/06/06 06:20 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by dehammer:
believe that if you will, but there is more to this universe than can be explained by our science. until somethings can be, they will be called magic. Its a good enough name for it as anything else that exist today.
I couldn't agree with you more.

"Amaranth"

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#14521 - 07/06/06 08:38 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"but there is more to this universe than can be explained by our science"

I don't. Either of you. Name a single thing of which you are aware that is beyond the reach of science to explain: Be specific.
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#14522 - 07/06/06 09:19 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
soilguy Offline
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Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
There's no magic. There's only stuff we don't know about.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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#14523 - 07/06/06 10:32 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
But there is stupidity ... big gobs of it ... magic? Never seen it ... never will.

But it will be interesting to see if either dehummer or rose can point to a single specific example.

And yes I have a very sharp scalpel in my drawer ready for the dissection.
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#14524 - 07/07/06 12:28 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here's an example from my life, rather my mother's life. I could choose many other incidents, but this one is the least painful for me.

Two weeks before she delivered her fourth child, my mother had a dream about the delivery. In her dream she saw a doctor she did not know, and in her dream she was telling my father she was sorry about the loss of the baby. Her brother had the same dream as well.

Two weeks later the events unfolded just as she had dreamed them; her regular doctor was not on hand and the child was born dead. She knew the doctor from her dream, and the nurse as well. All people in the dream were in her room just as she had foreseen it.

Now explain that with Science and Physics if you can. I can vouch for the veracity of the person who related the story to me. It happened. What can you say in explanation?

These kind of dreams are relatively common events in our family, foretelling future events that actually happen just as we dreamed them. Sometimes the dreams occur months before the events, sometimes only a few days. Can Science explain them? No, not at present. Does that mean they aren't real? How do we know what reality is? I know I'm not crazy. But I still get premonitions like the one I related earlier. It's part of who I am, what I am. I've learned to live with it.

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#14525 - 07/07/06 12:37 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
Blacknad Offline
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Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Wow. That's some scalpel you're going to need Dan ;-)

Blacknad.

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#14526 - 07/07/06 04:19 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
when i was in-service, i had a parachuting accident. for the most part there was little permeate damage, only thing noticed at the time was a fracture in one of the x rays that could not be verified. years later it was discovered that that fracture had caused the bone (a small one) to heal at a slight angle. unfortunately there was also a major nerve running along it. the bone rubbed on the nerve until it damaged the sheath. i was told i would either have to have surgery to remove it one day, which would mean i would have limited mobility of that foot (it was small but important somehow) or i would lose the feeling in that part of the foot. since it was not an immediate threat, i held off until i had to make that decision, handling the pain and the occasional inability (short term) to walk with out a crouch. I reached a point where i was taking enough hydrocodiene that i should have been unconscious most of the time, yet it barely phased the pain. At that time i was referred to an alternative healing clinic run by a preacher. After she learned i was a Wiccan, she taught me the healing touch. shortly afterwords, the bone was "inexplicably" spontaneously reshaped. it no longer presses on that nerve and i will not have to have the surgery, ever. i have not used hydrocodiene since. scientifically, it would have required surgery of some type to change that bone, since it had healed and was not (according to the body) damaged. the doctors have yet to come up with an explanation, other than, "there are mechanics in the body we don't know of or understand." that to me is magic. maybe one day there will be an explanation. but for now, the only name is magic.

also, i too have occasional premonitions.


dissect it all you want. something exist that we cant explain.

Quote:
soilguy 07-06-2006 04:19
There's no magic. There's only stuff we don't know about.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
"you say 'toe ma (long a) toe', i say 'toe ma (short a) toe'
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#14527 - 07/07/06 05:18 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Thanks for the example Rose but no need to worry about whether the scalpel is sharp enough: It is.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3077505
http://science.howstuffworks.com/dream10.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premonitions

Plenty more where these came from.

A coincidence is not magic. And this is likely no coincidence. It is, in fact, rather reasonable that a pregnant woman's body knows at some level what is happening inside. Where's the magic?
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DA Morgan

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#14528 - 07/07/06 05:49 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
Anonymous
Unregistered


There was nothing wrong with the baby. During labor the umbilical cord became compressed and deprived the oxygen supply to the brain, thus causing brain death. This happened in the space of a few hours. No way could there have been any foreknowledge of the problem, other than that the umbilical cord was long and coiled around the neck and over the head of the fetus as labor began. Some coincidence.

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#14529 - 07/07/06 08:19 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
people that dont believe in magic will never see it, not because it is not there, but because their mind will not allow them to see things that they cant explain or deal with. the human mind is fabulous in its ability to rationalize things it is not able to deal with.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#14530 - 07/07/06 10:25 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
QUOTE]Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Thanks for the example Rose but no need to worry about whether the scalpel is sharp enough: It is.[/QUOTE]

Dan, you obviously see yourself as a surgeon wielding a keen scalpel and skilfully cutting away the tumours of delusion from the human experience.

Your response to this, however, has all the finesse of a gorilla brandishing a butter knife.

??it is possible that the human mind is capable of an extraordinary feat of reasoning to produce an accurate view of the future.?

Is that it? ?It is possible??

Of course it?s possible. But does it account for the type of premonition that Amaranth recounted? Hardly. Does it account for the fact that the Doctor and Nurse were seen in the dream and then recognised physically during the delivery? Again, no. But you never attempted to deal with that aspect.

The second website you linked to did nothing to support your position and, au contraire, seemed to support the idea of premonition. You should probably read the stuff you find with Google a little more thoroughly to avoid further own goals. And of course you are going to find material to support your cause if you really want it ? the diffence between the following Google searches:

1. Premonition is rubbish.
2. Premonitions defies explanation.

Okay, you didn?t search like that but the principle is that you come to it all with a prior subjective perception that premonition is a process explainable by the brains ability to knit together scenes that are an outworking of inner stress & tension. So you ignore anything that conflicts with this ? including aspects of Amaranth?s story that you ignored or glossed over that seemed to involve a very accurate predictive quality that would asolutely defy probability.

For myself, I told you once before that my Step Father had been involved in a couple of exorcisms and has recounted seeing heavy furniture floating around a room. His reliability is not under question and he was previously a qualified engineer and not prone to flights of fancy where physics is concerned.

Dan, your reaction to these experiences comes out of the paradigm you subscribe to. Namely that there is naught but particles interacting. So you view every experience through that filter.

What?s more, some of these things that may have a reasonable explanation are discounted because, as yet, our understanding of the universe is not complete enough to encompass them. So you are simply not willing to consider them and will reject them as lies, delusions or attempt to give them more mundane explanations, even if that doesn?t effectively explain them (i.e. Amaranth?s experiences). It is blinkered thinking.

No offense meant Dan. Just enjoying the rough and tumble of healthy debate.

Blacknad.

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#14531 - 07/07/06 10:31 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Quote:
Originally posted by dehammer:
People that dont believe in magic will never see it, not because it is not there, but because their mind will not allow them to see things that they cant explain or deal with. The human mind is fabulous in its ability to rationalize things it is not able to deal with.
Well said.

A Christian and a Wiccan agreeing? Unheard of laugh

Blacknad.

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#14532 - 07/07/06 04:18 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by Blacknad:
Quote:
Originally posted by dehammer:
People that dont believe in magic will never see it, not because it is not there, but because their mind will not allow them to see things that they cant explain or deal with. The human mind is fabulous in its ability to rationalize things it is not able to deal with.
Well said.

A Christian and a Wiccan agreeing? Unheard of laugh

Blacknad.
now that has to be magic laugh
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#14533 - 07/07/06 07:01 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad and dehammer wrote:
"A Christian and a Wiccan agreeing? Unheard of

now that has to be magic"


No miracle.
No magic.
No doubt you can find someone that believes in the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy that will agree with you too.
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DA Morgan

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#14534 - 07/07/06 07:05 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
To be honest, I have a few "magical" anecdotes to offer up, too. However, I still say they fall into the "stuff we don't know about," category. Some can also just be coincidences.

I've gotta run now, but if you want to hear them sometime, I'll post.
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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#14535 - 07/07/06 08:55 PM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Not to worry. I have a list myself. Virtual particles, neutrino oscillations, dark matter, dark energy, not knowing the last digit of Pi.

But they are not magic.
They are just as-yet unexplained to my satisfaction.
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DA Morgan

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#14536 - 07/08/06 03:35 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Blacknad and dehammer wrote:
"A Christian and a Wiccan agreeing? Unheard of

now that has to be magic"


No miracle.
No magic.
No doubt you can find someone that believes in the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy that will agree with you too.
one think i will not have any trouble finding someone to agree with is that you cant tell a joke from a real statement. he and i were shareing a joke on religions there in case you dont know.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#14537 - 07/08/06 03:41 AM Re: Lioness in zoo kills man who invoked God
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by soilguy:
To be honest, I have a few "magical" anecdotes to offer up, too. However, I still say they fall into the "stuff we don't know about," category. Some can also just be coincidences.

I've gotta run now, but if you want to hear them sometime, I'll post.
call it what you want, but when a wiccan send energy into the universe in the form of a spell and something that should not happens does so in the way the spell was sent, you will have trouble convincing the wiccan he or she did not have anything to do with it.

the same can be said if a christian sends for a prayer and something that should not happen does. most coincidences are just things that are connected in someway we don't know of. an atheist would say that that was just happenstance, but one who does not believe in coincidences will see other things.

we all see the truths that we are able to see.

an atheist will say its just coincidences, that magic does not exist.

a wiccan will say that its magic, that coincidences don't exist.

who really can say which of these two are right.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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