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#14413 - 04/06/06 04:20 PM Betrayal By Request
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Ok I know I'm pushing the limit here but this is just too juicy to ignore.

How does it relate to SAGG? Well it is archeology. Ok!

Here's the story:

National Geographic unveiled an ancient manuscript Thursday that may shed new light on the relationship between Jesus and Judas, the disciple who betrayed him.

The papyrus manuscript was written probably around 300 A.D. in Coptic script, a copy of an earlier Greek manuscript.

It was discovered in the desert in Egypt in the 1970s and has now been authenticated by carbon dating and studied and translated by biblical scholars, National Geographic announced.

Unlike the four gospels in the Bible, this text indicates that Judas betrayed Jesus at Jesus' request.

The text begins "the secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot."

The key passage comes when Jesus tells Judas "you will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothed me."

This indicates that Judas would help liberate the spiritual self by helping Jesus get rid of his physical flesh, the scholars said.

The manuscript was first mentioned in a treatise around 180 A.D. by a bishop, Irenaeus of Lyon, in what is now France. The bishop denounced the manuscript as differing from mainstream Christianity and said it produced a fictitious story.

And it gets better and better. Source:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/04/06/gospel.judas.ap/index.html

Think anyone will go back and add this into Revelations? Not on your life!
There is no room for truth in the holy gospel.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14414 - 04/06/06 06:23 PM Re: Betrayal By Request
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
Ok DA, to preempt all the others..(clears throat)

1. How dare you state this is more accurate or real then the Bible as it is?

2. You only pick and choose what agrees with your personal theories about the Bible so there!!

3. Carbon dating is an evil of science!!

Like to add some more DA?

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#14415 - 04/06/06 06:34 PM Re: Betrayal By Request
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Lillith attempting to pre-empt the sound-byte kids wrote:

1. How dare you state this is more accurate or real then the Bible as it is?

Two reasons why it is more likely to be accurate.
A. It is dated 180AD. More than 100 years before any biblical text was written.

B. Given the story of Jesus it is impossible that he did now know of the betrayal before it happened. And could have interceded to stop it had he chose. So whether the betrayal was requested or just accepted ... the act was accepted without protest or intervention by either account.

2. You only pick and choose what agrees with your personal theories about the Bible so there!!

Yeah science is like that. It tends to weigh in on matters that are provable. Like the missing link between fish and reptiles just reported.

3. Carbon dating is an evil of science!

Carbon has been proven to be toxic. That is why the government advises people not to BBQ meat. Everyone should do everything they can to purge their bodies of all of toxic carbon.

Lillith asks:
"Like to add some more DA?"

You have no idea. But I'll bite my tongue and bide my time. No doubt the cranks will crank it up for this one.

Here's another link for them:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12186080/

It contains a more detailed account of the finding.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14416 - 04/06/06 09:27 PM Re: Betrayal By Request
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
(sigh), No cranks coming out to play yet. I am sorely disappointed. Now how am I going to spend the rest of my day at work. Oh yeah, reading a book on Environmental Economics and another one on the Mideast Crisis.

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#14417 - 04/07/06 12:15 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
DA makes a major find for his religion!!!

Unlike the four gospels in the Bible, this text indicates that Judas betrayed Jesus at Jesus' request.

The text begins "the secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot."

The key passage comes when Jesus tells Judas "you will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothed me."

This indicates that Judas would help liberate the spiritual self by helping Jesus get rid of his physical flesh, the scholars said."

Hi DA, do you think there is any doubr here that you are the major posting source for anti, not really menainful, religious thought? Do you do it because dumping on the beliefs of others is much easier than promoting sciencetific thought?
Too bad.
jjw

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#14418 - 04/07/06 12:51 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
Hmmm, if an archaelogist had found proof of where Noah's Arc is you would post it as well JJW.

Archeaology is science, just because the scientist states what is in the parchment runs counter to what the current religions believe does not make it anti-religion.

Religious folk could look at it this way, that Judas loved Jesus and humanity so much that he was willing to deceive all the other apostles to accomplish God's will.

Other folks could look at it and say that Jesus pulled off an elaborate deception to accomplish his goals and therefore that sheds doubts on the rest of the Bible writings.

It's all in your perception really.

However, it seems unfair if this is accurate to continue to view Judas as an evil betrayor isn't it?

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#14419 - 04/07/06 01:07 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
Easy Life Offline
Member

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Glasgow - Scotland
I have to admire your footwork Morgan. You duck and dodge in any direction that helps your case. Like the very worst of zealots you just can't be trusted to be honest.
You claim that the gospels are unreliable because of the gap between events and writing. (Paul's 1st letter to Thessalonians written 48AD...about 15 years after Christ's death). But now you cite this gospel and have no problem with its veracity, despite the fact it was written 270 years after Christ's death. It couldn't possibly be interpolated from the Greek copy could it, just as you arrogantly pronounce the rest of the gospels were. Hypocrisy of the worst kind. Intellectually dishonest...YOU BETCHA!!

This gospel is connected with a number of others that were discounted because they were written by a sect that claimed Jesus gave secret information to Judas (and GUESS WHAT...they obviously were privy to this 'secret' info giving them power and authority). Oh yes, let?s just recap...

Intellectually dishonest...YOU BETCHA!!

And Chaoslillith, do you realise how ignorant and biased you appear to be? Do you? Probably not. Also...one who cast spells ought to think twice before they label others as cranks.

Easy.

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#14420 - 04/07/06 01:14 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
You see Lillith there are cranks out there. You just need to be more patient.

jjw004: It is science. It is an authenticated historical document as proven by the scientific method. The problem here is not religion. The problem here is heresy. You only like the truth if it is a "your" truth. And I like to dispatch hypocrisy where-ever I find it.

Do you want to know my belief? Ok I'll tell you what I believe. I believe that the truth is a breath of fresh air. And that those who truly care about the future have an obligation to air it without personal prejudice.

Of course there'd be no complaint from jjw004 if it supported his belief system. That's the difference between "real" science and "pseudoscience." Right jjw?

Having now had a chance to read some of the original text translated. And having had a chance to talk to my neighbor, the psychiatrist, I have a sense of what this text reveals.

Essentially that we have a Branch Davidian type cult led by a charismatic leader with some disciples who are quarreling among themselves (not very Christian of them but who's looking that closely). In 1993 David Koresh decided to go out in a blaze of glory. In roughly the year 33 Jesus Christ made the same decision. Give Koresh's followers 300+ years and they may well be completing the analogy. Who can say.

Is there anyone out there who doesn't consider it possible that some day bin Laden will ask one of his followers to betray him to the Americans so that he too can become a martyr? And do you doubt that some in the middle east would then create a movement based upon his disciples?

History will just keep repeating itself until we get off the merry-go-round. The first step off is a bit scary. It requires acknowledging the truth.
This text is part of that truth.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14421 - 04/07/06 01:19 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
Easy Life Offline
Member

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Glasgow - Scotland
Expert doubts 'Gospel of Judas' revelation.

"James M. Robinson, America's leading expert on such ancient religious texts from Egypt, predicts in a new book that the text won't offer any insights into the disciple who betrayed Jesus. His reason: While it's old, it's not old enough."

?Does it go back to Judas? No,'' Robinson told The Associated Press on Thursday.

"Robinson is an emeritus professor at Claremont (Calif.) Graduate University, chief editor of religious documents found in 1945 at Nag Hammadi, Egypt, and an international leader among scholars of Coptic manuscripts."

"Robinson has not seen the text that National Geographic is working on, but assumes it is the same work assailed by Bishop Irenaeus of Lyons around A.D. 180.

Irenaeus said the writings came from a "Cainite" Gnostic sect that jousted against orthodox Christianity. He also accused the Cainites of lauding the biblical murderer Cain, the Sodomites and Judas, whom they regarded as the keeper of secret mysteries."

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2006-03-02-gospel-of-judas_x.htm

So who do you trust there Mr Morgan? Let's see...'America's leading expert on such ancient religious texts from Egypt' or the team that have sensationalised it for a sale to the highest bidder, $3 - $10 million dollars, and now the National Geographic who want sales off it?

Oh of course...no brainer...trust the ones who confirm your skepticism.

Easy.

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#14422 - 04/07/06 01:40 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
Easy Life Offline
Member

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Glasgow - Scotland
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
I have a sense of what this text reveals.

Essentially that we have a Branch Davidian type cult led by a charismatic leader with some disciples who are quarreling among themselves (not very Christian of them but who's looking that closely). In 1993 David Koresh decided to go out in a blaze of glory. In roughly the year 33 Jesus Christ made the same decision. Give Koresh's followers 300+ years and they may well be completing the analogy. Who can say.
-------------------------------------------------

LOL LOL LOL LOL!!!!! Well I have a sense of what your text reveals...time for your medication. You make it up as you go along. How can you expect anyone to have any respect for your moronic rants?

Easy.

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#14423 - 04/07/06 01:44 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
Easy Life Offline
Member

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Glasgow - Scotland
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
It requires acknowledging the truth.
This text is part of that truth.
-------------------------------------------------

Says who, Give it up before you descend any further into farce!!!

Easy.

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#14424 - 04/07/06 01:52 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
Eek I did not realize National Geographic was so horrible.

Yes I cast spells on occassion, seeing as how others would still like to burn me at the stake I feel no guilt about calling others cranks.

My answer, is I believe none of them. Seeing as how only a century or so after the death of Christ there were sects warring about what he said and did, I choose to believe that that they are all egotists who argue over the "word of God". Truth is NO ONE REALLY KNOWS THE TRUTH!!!

Scholars will argue over everything in the Bible, your leading expert will disagree with Morgan's expert and when it comes down to it it is PERSONAL INTEPRETATION. There is no "WORD OF GOD" because if all religious writings are to be the words of god then everything that has been written about him must be true.

Sorry folks, either the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Quran and all the other holy texts that claim to be the word of god are or they are all false, as I have yet to see a real test that shows us what is the real word of god.

How does this logic work? Simple, every one of these text claim divine inspiration, so therefore they must all be right or someone is a great con artist.



How does any scholar really know the truth about Jesus? We were not there. Hell, we are constantly rewriting our own histories as nations and people. If you look at textbook written in Britain about the revolutionary war and one written here I am sure there will be several inconsistencies.

If all the Popes are God's voice and representative on earth, then they should have a direct line and never be in error correct? Yet the Pope's decisions have more often been prompted by politics and less by religion. Yet many Catholics believe the Popes are divinely inspired. So if they can be divinely inspired, who's to say this archaelogist was not divinely insprired to find this document and release it to the world for some reason that is yet to be apparent to us.

Are you willing to double guess God's divine plan? It is simple Easy, how do you or anyone on this Earth really know if any of these experts have a clue? Are you willing to bet your eternal soul on being wrong?

Think about it.....

I am sure you will ask me somewhere about my soul. My answer, hell is where all the interesting people will be and I'd much rather burn eternally with Socrates then sit next to a Bible thumper.

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#14425 - 04/07/06 02:05 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
Easy Life Offline
Member

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Glasgow - Scotland
Quote:
Originally posted by Chaoslillith:
How does this logic work? Simple, every one of these text claim divine inspiration, so therefore they must all be right or someone is a great con artist.
-------------------------------------------------

Trying to work out if your dishonest or just ignorant. Probably just ignorant...Let's examine your ' logic '.

All texts claim divine inspiration. Therefore...

1. All texts are correct.
2. They are all a con.

Great. Suits you very well. Now let's engage our brains and look at something other than Chaoslilliths 'Logic for Dummies'.

3. One or more texts are divinely inspired.
4. One text is divinely inspired.

When you show an ability to think straight it may be worthwhile giving your opinion.

Easy.

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#14426 - 04/07/06 02:23 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
Ok, let's try this.

Thanks for not answering any of the questions I posted, good job at picking your battles.

My logic is quite simple if you take into account that every religion claims to be divinely inspired. God states in all main three texts (I am not sure about the Quran) that he is the only God and there are no others, so we are left with an interesting problem.

1. There is one God who chooses to reveal himself in different fashions to different followers and the three holy texts are simply progressions of his teachings.

2. There is one God who allows other entities to do a damn good job of sounding a lot like him who he chooses to do nothing about.

3. There is only one God, therefore all the killing and destruction in his name has been for nothing.

So we are left with the 2 options that state that humanity has killed countless thousands over semantics, or that somehow God expects us to decide which of the three nuts are hiding the real truth. Either way, the writings are either all divinely inspired or not, based on the beliefs of those people who believe in these faiths.

I realize it makes no sense to some but I am approaching this from my attempt at being faith based.

To be faith based I would have to believe that only my chosen version of the Bible is correct and that all others are false..hence a con job. Following that:
1. The people who believe other than me, say Muslims would believe that their Bible is real and the Catholics are false, a con job.
2. Therefore either all three who believe are correct in their belief or they are all wrong because:

3 a.If the Jews think the Catholics are wrong and
b.the Catholics think the Muslims are wrong and
c. the Muslims think the Jews are wrong

Who is right?

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#14427 - 04/07/06 02:24 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
By the way thanks for inadvertently pointing out the inherent hypocrisy in the religions....

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#14428 - 04/07/06 02:49 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
Easy Life Offline
Member

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Glasgow - Scotland
Quote:
Originally posted by Chaoslillith:
Thanks for not answering any of the questions I posted, good job at picking your battles.
-----------------------------------------------

I'm not picking battles. I'm just more interested in spending my time examining Mr Morgans assertions. He at least has studied the subject. You on the other hand spout your uneducated, ignorant, baseless, ill thought out personal opinions and I ain't got time to bother with 'em. Showing up your poor and mercenary, selective excuse for logic was enough.

Easy.

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#14429 - 04/07/06 03:09 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
Ahhh, so my being raised Catholic, reading several books on myths and speaking to many a priest about these issues means I am ignorant and baseless. I have studied the subject, trust me. However, if you do not like the simple way I answer you in trying to make my points painfully clear and leaving you really little room to argue is too annoying for you then I am sorry.

You like picking on Morgan because many of his posts leave a lot unsaid so you choose to fill in what you want.

I guess that is how one maintains an "Easylife".

Answer this for me: If you believe in God how do you know your idea of God is any more correct then a Muslims? If you state that the Bible tells you, well their Quran tells them differently so where does that leave both of you?

I am sure you can answer that without name calling can't you?

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#14430 - 04/07/06 03:55 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
Easy Life Offline
Member

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Glasgow - Scotland
I'm not here to explain my beliefs. The reasons are extensive and preclude a nicely packaged summary. The name calling (no ones being killed here) extends out of my anger at seeing zealots of any kind (religious or atheist) arrogantly proclaiming what's what by the process of an intellectually dishonest examination of selective self-supporting facts. Anyone can take a position on subjective emotional grounds and find the supporting evidence they require. I'm capable of it...Mr Morgan is quite evidently capable of it. I will oppose it in the interests of detached rational thought.

I just happen to see you as lightweight and more at home in a school debating team. Your thinking is too muddled. Please don't insult me by telling me your "points are painfully clear and leave me little room to argue"...proclaiming it so does not make it so except in your own head.

Easy.

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#14431 - 04/07/06 03:59 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
Easy Life Offline
Member

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Glasgow - Scotland
Quote:
Originally posted by Chaoslillith:
Ahhh, so my being raised Catholic, reading several books on myths and speaking to many a priest about these issues means I am ignorant and baseless.
--------------------------------------------------

I couldn't care less how many books on myths you've read and how many priests you've chatted with. My opinion of most priests is probably lower than yours. Don't attempt to qualify yourself, as if it lends more credence to the half-thoughts you spew out. Your statements stand or fall on their own merit and not because you read a few books.

Easy.

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#14432 - 04/07/06 04:06 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
Easy Life Offline
Member

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Glasgow - Scotland
Quote:
Originally posted by Chaoslillith:
You like picking on Morgan because many of his posts leave a lot unsaid so you choose to fill in what you want.
I'm sure Mr Morgan will appreciate your support, and your inference that he is incapable of communicating properly, but trots out arguments full of gaps. Get back to Sycophants Superhero Sidekick School.

Easy.

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