Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online
0 registered (), 415 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
The universes expansion accelleration solved.
by Marchimedes
05/14/20 07:25 AM
Top Posters (30 Days)
Marchimedes 4
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#14433 - 04/07/06 04:14 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
Hmm, I cannot qualify myself but you can disqualify me based on what you feel is "muddy thinking".

You are not here to discuss beliefs but dislike people picking out facts that support their ideas. Ok then, I asked you a simple question that had nothing to do with facts and you refuse to answer it.

Sorry Easy, but rational thought and religion really do not go together simply because when you introduce rational thought into a religious conversation things tend to go badly.


You state that you get angry because of zealots trying to prove their points with self selective facts, well then you should just steer clear of any discussions in religions. All belief systems really are based on choosing what belief agrees with you. If you look over my posts you will see that I really do not argue facts about religion at all. I simply asked a few questions and stated my opinion on religion.

I am not a zealot, atheistic or otherwise. I can see both sides of the issue when I want. I just enjoy contradicting religious people because they usually storm off when asked too many questions that confuse their beliefs.

You seem to think you have all the answers, or that Morgan and I have no idea what we are talking about but when it comes to religion no one really "knows" the truth. They just "believe" or "have faith" that their way is the right way. DA and I have both admitted to believing in a universal power, we just both despise hypocrites who claim one thing and act completely different from what they claim. That's really the driving force behind our posts.

By the way I am not a Sychophant, Morgan is hardly incapable of communicating, just a lot busier then I am. Nice to know though that defending a friend is now cause for name calling.

Top
.
#14434 - 04/07/06 04:30 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Lillith wrote:
"Nice to know though that defending a friend is now cause for name calling."

Well it is, after all, the Christian thing to do.

I'll respond tomorrow after a good night's sleep.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#14435 - 04/07/06 11:06 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
Easy Life Offline
Member

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Glasgow - Scotland
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Lillith wrote:
"Nice to know though that defending a friend is now cause for name calling."

Well it is, after all, the Christian thing to do.
Have the moral high ground. I'm not here to love you...I don't even know you. I'm challenging the hypocrisy of you self-appointed crusaders against religious 'ignorance'. Letting your one-sided representation of the 'facts' go unchallenged does not serve the truth.

Easy.

Top
#14436 - 04/07/06 05:37 PM Re: Betrayal By Request
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Easy Life asks:
"'America's leading expert on such ancient religious texts from Egypt'"

Wow you are a real authoritarian aren't you. Must be troubling that the country you live in isn't ruled by a King or Emperor.

Science, Easy, does not work that way. I don't bow down to tyrants and I don't bow down to "leading experts" opinions either. Robinson's opinion is the opinion of one man. I will factor it into the opinions of the other experts in the field including, though I know this may shock you, non Americans too. Every once in awhile I find that non-Americans are not brain dead.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#14437 - 04/07/06 05:42 PM Re: Betrayal By Request
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Lillith asks:
a.If the Jews think the Catholics are wrong and
b.the Catholics think the Muslims are wrong and
c. the Muslims think the Jews are wrong

And the answer very clearly is none of them.

And they have waged war after war and committed atrocities beyond counting just for the sole purpose of proving who is the most righteous.

I have to admire Easy ... he hasn't posted a single reference to anything, substantive or otherwise, he is arguing against a text that is, by any definition, more reliable than the New Testament in that it hasn't gone through political editing in Nicea or by the likes of King Henry VIII. And yet his life is so simple ... don't like a fact ... denounce it ... spin doctor it ... argue against it. Facts can be so inconvenient.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#14438 - 04/07/06 05:48 PM Re: Betrayal By Request
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Lillith wrote to Easy:
"Ahhh, so my being raised Catholic, reading several books on myths and speaking to many a priest about these issues means I am ignorant and baseless."

You see Lillith you just don't understand.

First you are a female and we all know that females are not allowed to have opinions or at least to express them. You know menstrual cycles and all. Go back to your tent.

Second Christians are allowed to behave in the most non-Christian manner (including genocide and rape) whenever they are doing so on behalf of their god, the Prince of Peace. So Easy Life is free to throw around baseless comments about things he knows nothing about such as your knowledge and personal history. Or perhaps as his predecessors did torture you and then burn you at the stake.

And finally you must realize that his doing so is not a sign of the grossest of hypocrisies. He has god on his side. So he will just say his "Hail Marys" and all will be forgiven.

That's how it works. No sin is too big to be forgiven of a believer. Get with the program. ;-)
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#14439 - 04/07/06 08:48 PM Re: Betrayal By Request
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
(smacks self on forehead), Here I was thinking we were out of the dark ages...silly Chaos, Bush is in power we have regressed not progressed (sigh)

Top
#14440 - 04/07/06 10:40 PM Re: Betrayal By Request
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Bushes are planeted in dirt. Wash your hands.

Seriously ... this discussion is, in some manner, framed as being between science and faith or atheism and deism. But in reality this discussion is between misogynists (Christian, Jewish, Islamic) and people who look to an alpha male to tell them what to do, when to do it, and where to do it ... and a small percentage of the general public that doesn't believe that Tide makes your clothes white and brighter just because that's the tag line.

When we look at Nazi Germany we often say ... how could people have allowed this to happen? Take a look around you. When we think of the Inquisition we say "that was then and we're nothing like that today." Take a look around you. Just remember that only a small percentage of those in North America were willing to stand up and fight for their freedom in 1776. Look around you. This rabble is the same rubble that maintained their loyalty to the previous King George right up until the efforts of Washington, Jefferson, and thousands of others were over.

They are the sheep being led into the pasture every morning and back into the barn every evening.

As Thomas Jefferson said:
"In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty."
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#14441 - 04/08/06 02:29 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
In reading the article about this on the AZRepublic I found a comment that more eloquently puts what I have been trying to say, so I will quote it here.
----------------------------------------------
"Based on the responses above, I believe "faith" is again being confused with scholarship. It is an old habit. Faith is what a person chooses to believe is true. The goal of scholarship--be it historical, archeological or paleographical--is to find out what actually happened. The Biblical Gospels, like other gospels, are not meant to be histories, but personal statements of what their writers believed (i.e. had faith in) was true. Their purpose was to persuade others to have a similar faith. Even the four canonical gospels disagree among themselves about key details. Yet they deserve study, as do all documents of that period.

Our New Testament is the product of the Council of Nicea in 325. It was comprised of church leaders tasked by Emperor Constantine to sort through all of the Christian writings in circulation and decide which were canonical and which were not. The criteria they used were by modern standards somewhat arbitrary and flawed. Nevertheless, they reflect beliefs held in the third century about what happened in the first century. The rejected writings however are still valuable. All reflect the mindset of their writers as to what they believed. Each in its own way is another clue that modern scholarship has to help determine what actually happened.

So let us not let personal faith get in the way of using another God-given gift--the human brain and its ability to sort through all the evidence and make an informed, reasoned, critical judgment as to what actually happened. If faith gets in the way of that process then it deserves to be called by another name--prejudice"
--------------------------------------------------
I don't think even DA could have said it better.

Top
#14442 - 04/08/06 05:36 PM Re: Betrayal By Request
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
I agree.

But that won't stop me from trying given appropriate provocation. ;-)
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#14443 - 04/08/06 06:05 PM Re: Betrayal By Request
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
I just thought that was a great summation of what we have been saying.

Top
#14444 - 04/10/06 10:47 PM Re: Betrayal By Request
Archie Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 5
Loc: Withdrawn due to unbridled stu...
The 'Gospel of Judas' was written originally about A. D. 180, if the text studyers are correct. (I just made up a new word; I tend to do that.) The group writing the manuscript were proponents of the 'flesh is evil' philosophy.

The biggest single problem I have with the theory of Jesus and Judas having a secret deal is Judas' suicide. If Jesus briefed Judas on what to do to achieve the needed result; why would Judas then return the money to the Chief Priests and kill himself? Why didn't Judas just wait around for Jesus to resurrect and come to dinner? Jesus would have certainly told everyone what had happened.
-----------------------------------
Most things, out of context, don't mean much.
Archie
_________________________
Withdrawn due to unbridled stupidity of posters

Top
#14445 - 04/11/06 03:34 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Archie wrote:
"The 'Gospel of Judas' was written originally about A. D. 180"

That's not what I've read. What I've read is that the Coptic Language translation of the original Greek text was written in 180 A.D. making the original document somewhat older.

Archie wrote:
"The biggest single problem I have with the theory of Jesus and Judas having a secret deal is Judas' suicide."

No me. I think it perfectly consistent with the behaviour of what we see in the contemporary world when a charismatic leader, say a Michael Koresh or Osama bin Laden (when it happens and we all know it will), is lost. I find the consistency quite supportive.

Keep in mind one very critical factor. IF Jesus was who modern-day Christians claim he was then the entire Jesus story could NEVER have happened without Judas. No Judas. No betrayal. No purpose to his life and no religion.

Could a god or godess have set the wheels in motion? Virgin birth? Wisemen? Disciples? And not have worked out the entire game-plan in advance? Hardly. The actions of a god are not put at mercy by the actions of a primate.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#14446 - 04/13/06 07:09 AM Re: Betrayal By Request
Archie Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 5
Loc: Withdrawn due to unbridled stu...
Quote:
Archie: The 'Gospel of Judas' ? written ? A. D. 180
Quote:
DA Morgan: ? I've read ? the Coptic Language translation ? written in 180 A.D. ? original document ? older.
Okay, other estimates range from A. D. 130 to A. D. 170.
Quote:
Archie: The biggest single problem ? is Judas' suicide.
Quote:
DA Morgan: ? I think it perfectly consistent ? behaviour ? when a charismatic leader, say a Michael Koresh or Osama bin Laden (when it happens and we all know it will), is lost. I find the consistency quite supportive.
That was David Koresh; unless you're speaking of another. The problem with your view is the leader wasn't 'lost'; at least not for more than a long weekend. It would be consistent for Judas to suicide if he thought all was lost; that he was a traitor. But this text says different; Judas was the only one who knew the secret handshake. He knew what was going on when no one else did. If he knew all that, then he had to know Jesus was coming out of the tomb on Sunday morning. No point in committing suicide.
Quote:
DA Morgan: Keep in mind one very critical factor. IF Jesus was who modern-day Christians claim he was then the entire Jesus story could NEVER have happened without Judas. No Judas. No betrayal. No purpose to his life and no religion.
I see two errors of logic in this paragraph. One is that of Judas being indispensable in the happenings. The second is this claim, even if true, has no bearing on whether Judas was in concert with Jesus or not.

Jesus' death was what was required, not Judas' treachery. Jesus preached in the Temple on a daily basis, it's not like the Pharisees couldn't have found Him without Judas. Just for the record, Peter's denial of Jesus at the night-time trial was a betrayal as well, but in different terms.
Quote:
DA Morgan: Could a god or godess have set the wheels in motion? Virgin birth? Wisemen? Disciples? And not have worked out the entire game-plan in advance? Hardly. The actions of a god are not put at mercy by the actions of a primate.
I'll agree with you there. God works out His plans long in advance and they are not stopped or hindered or thwarted by primates or anything else.
_________________________
Withdrawn due to unbridled stupidity of posters

Top
#14447 - 04/13/06 05:44 PM Re: Betrayal By Request
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Archie wrote:
"That was David Koresh; unless you're speaking of another."

You are correct. I started off with one example and then edited it, imperfectly, with another.

Archie wrote:
"The problem with your view is the leader wasn't 'lost'; at least not for more than a long weekend. It would be consistent for Judas to suicide if he thought all was lost;"

You assume the suicide was from despair. Not the actions of a true believer. If you know your best friend and saviour is in heaven waiting for you. And if you know you have fulfilled your mission in life. Suicide is the most logical thing to do. A suicide conducted with class, with self-confidence, and with certainty that all is well with the universe.

One of my main reasons for thinking so-called "true believers" are frauds is that they are almost universally afraid of death: A hypocrisy.

Archie wrote:
"Jesus' death was what was required, not Judas' treachery."

Gods do not die of old age. It has never happened and never will. An act of treachery or skuldugery or evil is absolutely required.

Jesus' death, and the means thereof, had to have been known before his birth if the story holds water.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2



Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor
Facebook

We're on Facebook
Join Our Group

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.