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#14165 - 03/09/06 06:21 AM information
infoshakti Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/09/06
Posts: 2
Loc: india
can really science deny the existense of god?
we all see that nature really loves symmetry so the matters really have antimatters but i want all your help to know if we can recreate a universe inside a lab.is it possible to solve the mysteries regarding the creation of universe
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shakti prasad pallai

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#14166 - 03/09/06 06:33 AM Re: information
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Infoshakti asks:
"can really science deny the existense of god?"

Absolutely. And with the same level of authority that we declare the non-existence of invisible purple elephants and the thought that you murdered your father before you were conceived.

"but i want all your help to know if we can recreate a universe inside a lab"

Theoretically perhaps. But as far as we know. We do not have either the knowledge or the technology.

"Is it possible to solve the mysteries regarding the creation of universe"

Absolutely. Though likely the answer will make a lot of people extremely uncomfortable.
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DA Morgan

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#14167 - 03/09/06 08:17 AM Re: information
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Off to Origins?

DA wrote - ?Absolutely. And with the same level of authority that we declare the non-existence of invisible purple elephants and the thought that you murdered your father before you were conceived.?

- The fact that you find God's existence to be philosophically unacceptable on every level does not amount to an authoritative denial.

If you can prove it, then do so and rid the world of religion.

Scripture contains the constant theme that when humanity denies God it aspires to take his place. On the basis that you feel we just need enough knowledge and the right technology and we can create a universe, I would say scripture has you pegged good and proper.

Blacknad.

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#14168 - 03/09/06 09:52 PM Re: information
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad wrote:
"The fact that you find God's existence to be philosophically unacceptable on every level does not amount to an authoritative denial."

Precisely. The difference between us is the willingness to recognize this fact. Lets see how you respond to the reverse:

""The fact that you find God's existence to be philosophically acceptable on every level does not amount to an authoritative acceptance."

Well Blacknad? Willing to step up to your own falliability on the matter?

While it is impossible to prove that a specific god does not exist it is possible to prove that all advertised gods do not exist as many of them are mutually exclusive. Which, of course, leaves us with the dilema of why your god exists and everyone else's doesn't.

It is also possible to prove that the universe would not be different, in any manner whatsoever, if your god didn't exist. And that by simply pointing out that nothing in the universe violates the known laws of physics. If everything accords with the laws of physics ... then the deity is without purpose save for the actions it has declared publicly to have performed such as flooding the earth and drowning people, bringing plagues upon the innocent, and using blood rites such as crucifixion to make a hopelessly muddled point.

Blacknad wrote:
"Scripture contains the constant theme that when humanity denies God it aspires to take his place."

That is your scripture. That is not the scripture of the Jews or the Moslems or the Buddhists or the that practice Shinto or Animism. Why do you assume that your minority view has more validity than that of the rest of this planet's inhabitants? Are you smart and they are all dumb? Are you enlightened and they are all dupes? But if you look at your sentence with the intelligence I know you have you will detect that it is fatally flawed. It starts with the premise that the god actually exists and that the denial is for a purpose of attaining power. It does not posit the possibility that the deity is a fraud and that those saying so might be pointing out that the emporer is wearing no clothes.

If there is a deity. A deity that has created me to doubt its existence then everyone should be perfectly happy with the current situation.

On the other hand I still want that deity brought to trail for crimes against humanity for the pain, suffering, and death inflicted in its name that it could have prevented. And I want it condemned to death for the wilfull creation of malaria, polio, leukemia, and all other manner of ills it is solely responsible for. Yes. I demand from my god integrity, honesty, and a willingness to fess up to its sins of commission and omission. After all ... I was made in its image.
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DA Morgan

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#14169 - 03/10/06 11:12 AM Re: information
y Offline
Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 49
Loc: everywhere
-----------------------------------------------
"but i want all your help to know if we can recreate a universe inside a lab"

Theoretically perhaps. But as far as we know. We do not have either the knowledge or the technology.
--------------------------------------------------

The Universe without a God has no capacity for thought, so surely knowledge should be no bar to creating a universe, only the knowledge to create the technology.
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y

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#14170 - 03/10/06 12:47 PM Re: information
bookwench Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/10/06
Posts: 3
Ok, listen up you troglodytes. To say that "science isn't all it's cracked up to be" due to human error is a mistake. It's blaming the tool for being misused. Science itself, the scientific process, is an excellent ool for understanding the universe. It's the people that screw it up, every time...

Is it the only tool? No. Religion and philosophy also provide tools, with different perspectives and different results.

There is a common error that occurs in both science and religion. It's called "making the experiment/Holy Reading/argument come out how you want it to instead of how it was really going to". It's cheating, and people do it all the time. I know why people think they can cheat at science, although it never lasts long (repeatability being the big bugaboo); Don't ask me why people think they can cheat at religion, but so many people try. It bogges the mind.

Now, brass tacks: God may or may not exist. And to science, that fact is completely irrelllevant. Gasp! How can you SAY that?

caution: the following is my opinion and not a scientifically provable theory.

Well, because God doesn't reach down and make the bunsen burner turn itself off. If he (she? it? they? who knows?) did, that would be proof of God's existance, and proof negates faith. If you're a believer then faith is the whole point of the game: belief without proof, the ultimate expression of love. So... God's not gonna take that greatest thing away from you. You will never have proof of God's existance beyond what's already here, ie, sunsets, puppies, and ice cream with sprinkles. The universe started as science said it did, with a bang; it was not created mid-stream complete with a planet holding a confusing fossil record just to trick the unfaithful, because that would be a lie - and God does not lie.

The closest you will ever get to God in this universe is to either a) pray and meditate, or b) study the works of God - the universe. Which is the whole basis of science. Not science with a bunch of preconcieved notions about what ought to be - that's pride. But science with humility and a lack of self-intrest; a sense of awe and wonder - oh, wait, I get those anyways every time I think about quantum physics. Science - true, pure science, not that intelligent design spam, not that "because the Bible said so" gibbletts - is a way to look on the mind of God. This universe is a puzzle we have been given the minds to solve. It's an offense not to use them propperly, rationally, and to the best of our ability.


All of which is also irrelevant - because the thing about science is, it works EXACTLY THE SAME if you believe in God or not. Yep. No kiddin. The Atheist, the Buddist, the Catholic and the Shinto all did the same experiment, and guess what! Since they all used the same method with the same stuff, they got the same results!

So God is, in the end, irrellevant to science. God may motivate the scientist; God may determine the morals of the people who decide how the science results should be used. But to science itself? Don't care. Not a useful variable, sorry.

People need to quit trying to make the facts fit their pet theory and just listen to the universe.

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#14171 - 03/10/06 05:33 PM Re: information
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
y wrote:
"The Universe without a God has no capacity for thought"

And you say this based on what empirical evidence? Have you been in universes where there is no god and found this to be true? Didn't think so.

The invisible purple rhinoceros thanks you for an unsubstantiated and unsubstantiable personal opinion. Not to many of those floating around any more.
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#14172 - 03/10/06 05:35 PM Re: information
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Bookwench wrote:
"caution: the following is my opinion and not a scientifically provable theory."

Finally someone with integrity graces SAGG. What a pleasant surprise.
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DA Morgan

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#14173 - 03/14/06 03:45 PM Re: information
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
Well put, Bookwench smile
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~Justine~

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#14174 - 03/14/06 05:07 PM Re: information
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:
Originally posted by y:
The Universe without a God has no capacity for thought, so surely knowledge should be no bar to creating a universe, only the knowledge to create the technology.
What on Earth do you mean?

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the universe has capacity for thought. How would that aid in its inception? Does a child instinctively know how he/she was made? People have capacity for thought, after all.
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When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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#14175 - 03/14/06 05:14 PM Re: information
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:
Originally posted by bookwench:
...because the thing about science is, it works EXACTLY THE SAME if you believe in God or not. Yep. No kiddin. The Atheist, the Buddist, the Catholic and the Shinto all did the same experiment, and guess what! Since they all used the same method with the same stuff, they got the same results!
Precisely. Science is substrate neutral when it comes to non-scientific notions that a researcher may hold. I may have to give you five stars for this, Bookwench!
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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#14176 - 03/15/06 02:41 PM Re: information
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
Science is the Art of Listening to the Universe.

Science is not the art of interpreting the Universe because it's not finished listening.
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~Justine~

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#14177 - 03/15/06 06:24 PM Re: information
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Justine wrote:
"Science is not the art of interpreting the Universe because it's not finished listening."

What? Care to say that again only this time with understandable content?
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14178 - 03/15/06 09:53 PM Re: information
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
There is truth in what Justine says.

Science does not know enough yet to draw any final conclusions about the 'why' or 'how' of existence.

And science is constantly forced to reorient itself.

Until recently scientists were convinced that most of our DNA was 'junk'. Now we see that most of that non-coding DNA actually serves a purpose.

So Justine is correct - science has not yet finished listening (but it feels sure enough of itself to make some grand pronouncements).

Blacknad.

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#14179 - 03/16/06 02:29 AM Re: information
Pragmatist Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/06
Posts: 84
Loc: N.W. U.S.
Bookwench expresses an idea that raises an interesting speculation:
"If you're a believer then faith is the whole point of the game"
Religion is a member of a class of ideas that are
held because they are attractive to, or somehow
benefit the holder.
Such ideas spread; (Grow?), and
change to meet prevalent conditions; (Evolve?),
and produce fusions; (Breed?),
in their growth medium - intelligent minds.
Might such be studied as a new parasitic
or saphrophitic form of life?
They grow, evolve, and breed.
Some are even pathenogenic.
Hmmmmm.
Pragmatist
"I doubt, therefore I might be."

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#14180 - 03/16/06 06:43 AM Re: information
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad wrote:
"Science does not know enough yet to draw any final conclusions about the 'why' or 'how' of existence."

Well duh! ;-)

Neither does anyone else ... but that sure doesn't stop them from pontificating on any and all subjects as long as they refer to their authorless book as the ultimate source of truth.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14181 - 03/16/06 08:51 PM Re: information
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Dan wrote - "Neither does anyone else ... but that sure doesn't stop them from pontificating on any and all subjects as long as they refer to their authorless book as the ultimate source of truth."

Ah, fair point. shocked

Blacknad.

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#14182 - 03/17/06 04:16 AM Re: information
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Score 1 point for sentience. ;-)
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14183 - 03/17/06 05:43 PM Re: information
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:
Originally posted by Blacknad:
There is truth in what Justine says.

Science does not know enough yet to draw any final conclusions about the 'why' or 'how' of existence.

And science is constantly forced to reorient itself.

Yes, but that is understood. Should we stop attempting to apply models to reality (in the form of hypotheses and theories) because we don't know everything? We'll never know everything.

Other forms of human thought (like, oh... religious thought, for example) boldly jump into the middle of the unknown and refuse to change models when one is shown to be proposterous.

All of science is a work in progress, but that flawed work has achieved some respectable results for humanity. If you want to ignore science until we know everything, then try avoiding the use of any technology that stems from a theory that may not be the final word.
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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#14184 - 03/17/06 05:45 PM Re: information
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
Oh, I didn't notice that there was this second page, and everything I wrote was already covered. Oops.
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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