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#13997 - 03/23/06 03:08 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
Wet Wombat Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Charleston, South Carolina
1. [Insert Name] claims to be a Christian.
2. [Inster Name] commits a terrible act in the name of Jesus Christ.
3. Therefore, Christianity is the root cause of [Insert Name]'s action.

What kind of twisted logic is that?

1. [Insert Name] claims to be a humanist.
2. [Insert Name] commits a terrible act in the name of humanism.
3. Therefore, humanism is the root cause of [Insert Name]'s action.

I don't get it. When Christians do good deeds in the name of God, skeptics question their motives. However, when Christians do bad deeds in the name of God, skeptics automatically attribute it to their faith. A double standard?

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#13998 - 03/23/06 03:47 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
When I lived in Beirut I met many Christians and it was clear that their Christianity was a badge of identity, like a passport that shows what country you are a citizen of. It gave them an identity and was about what family you were born into and not what choice you made. It was as far away from authentic Christianity as you can get.

They paid lip service and just did as they pleased. I could discern no impact upon their lives. It was empty and without regard for Christ's teaching.

And yet any atrocity they committed during the war was chalked up as 'another Christian act of barbarism'. In fact the war was less to do with real Christianity as was about ethnicity, tribal feuds or any other kind of division. If they didn't have religion to justify what they were doing they would have found something else.

But of course the world sees it as the evil and bloodthirsty teachings of Christ manifested.

And a revision, Wombat:

What kind of twisted logic is that?

1. [Insert Name] has a humanistic ideology.
2. [Insert Name] commits a terrible act in the name of the humanistic ideology.
3. Humanism is the root cause of [Insert Name]'s action.


Blacknad.

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#13999 - 03/23/06 03:52 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
The thing about Christianity is that it can be judged against the teachings of Jesus, and commandments such as 'Do not Murder', so we know when it is either Christianity by name only or when it is real Christianity that has become corrupted.

With Ideologies, what standard is there to judge it against? Give Uncle Al complete power for a decade and see what he is capable of with his unrestrained rationalism that leads to his utter disdain for mercy, compassion or indeed any kind of charity towards anyone with an IQ under 80.

In Al's world how long before the less intelligent become a despised underclass being used for experimentation by the drugs companies? How long before anyone who cannot contribute to society finds themselves out in the cold because they are using up valuable resources that should be better used for the 'more productive'?

The real problem is that with no god, he is right - the human race is squandering valuable resources on those who give nothing back. Abortion - we haven't even started with it yet - and euthanasia, well there's another societal tool that we're not making best use of. And anyone who pretends otherwise simply doesn't have the strength of their own convictions. And they certainly don't understand what evolution is about.

Even our very own Rob would force abortion on any fetus that he thought might possibly commit a crime.

Christianiy more dangerous than the alternative?

Just watch what happens when we completely reject any idea of the sanctity of life. When we are relegated to the status of mere animals some people will be treated like mere animals.

I fear the atheist that has the courage to tread where their beliefs lead them.

Blacknad.

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#14000 - 03/23/06 03:55 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
If humanism was anywhere near as powerful a motivator as Christianity, Judaism or Islam I would have issues with it as much as I do the main three religions.

Christ's teachings are not evil or bloodthirsty, I do not think Dan or I ever claimed that. Let me repeat that CHRIST's TEACHINGS, not the Old Testament or any other of the eye for an eye, sacrifice someone because I told you so. Christ taught a PHILOSOPHY of tolerance, understanding, respect and peace. When his or Mohammed's or the Jewish philosophies were turned into a religion they were corrupted by many 1000s of people over the years. Hence my stance that zealots and high ranking members of most organized religions are twisted and corrupt.

How many times will the Catholic church have to hide a pedophile for people to understand that the Church has corrupted itself and it's teachings?

If I can separate the two, why can't you?

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#14001 - 03/23/06 04:06 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Dan.

You are so intent in knocking religion down. What are you going to replace it with?

Blacknad.

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#14002 - 03/23/06 04:41 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
Ideas, not beliefs. I would replace all religions with ideas of how the world works. People tend not to get as worked up about ideas as they do beliefs.

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#14003 - 03/23/06 04:41 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
It seems to me that Dan is not the only peace loving atheist that is intent on knocking Christianity down.

Christian martyrs: 70M
20th Century: 45.4M

At the hands of...

Atheists: 31,689,000
Muslims 9,121,000
Ethnoreligionists: 7,469,000
Christians: 5,538,000
Quasi-religionists 2,712,000
Mahayana Buddhists: 1,651,000
Hindus: 676,000
Zoroastrians: 384,000

- World Christian Encyclopedia (2001): This book is the standard reference work for religious statistics of all kinds, and both Britannica and the World Almanac cite from it.

Blacknad.

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#14004 - 03/23/06 04:54 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
Hehe, you did notice the statistic of Christians killing Christians correct?

Ok, I guess I need not mention the slaughter of American Indians because they were savages who needed "saving", of women who were condemned as witches...etc. etc.

This is all very tiring as there is no end to the statistics I could find.

I just want one Christian to admit that organized religion in the wrong hands is evil and that the world would be better off if people did not feel the need to force their beliefs on others.

You want to have 11 kids, refuse that the world is round and that your God created the world fine. Just do not legislate that I have to lose control over my body, that my kids have to be taught your religious beliefs in school. This is all I am asking.

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#14005 - 03/23/06 05:08 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad ... I know you are not old enough to remember WWII. But I presume when you were in school they taught you something about it.

Funny thing about your statistics ... you missed.
1. The source so we could check out their accuracy
2. The fact that 6,000,000 people were intentionally murdered by self-professed Christians.

But for a good laugh I really enjoyed "Christian martyrs: 70M." Do you know the definition of the word martyr? Apparently not so here it is:

http://www.answers.com/topic/martyr
ne who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.

70M Christians voluntarily chose death over denouncing their faith? In a pigs eye!
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14006 - 03/23/06 05:16 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad ... piggybacking a bit on what Lillith wrote here is one of the most famous of quotations:

"There are three kinds of liars in the world:
Liars, damned liars, and statisticians."
~ Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain)

You should be more careful. Lying is a sin. ;-)

The truth of the matter, the basic truth, is that it is completely irrelevant how many people are fool enough to die for an idea that isn't true. Here's a quote for that too:

"To die for an idea; it is unquestionably noble. But how much nobler it would be if men died for ideas that were true."
~ H.L. Mencken - Prejudices (1919)

When all is said and done here's what you have:
1. A claim to a deity with no supporting evidence.
2. An authorless grossly mistranslated book.
3. A host of fatal diseases that afflict innocent children.
4. A world not improved on smidgen over the way it was before Jesus Christ died whenever, whereever and however he died.

In the end H.L. Mencken was correct when he wrote:
"It is even harder for the average ape to believe that he has descended from man." Get over it.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14007 - 03/23/06 05:21 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
DA,

He did list the encyclopedia as the source but I am going to assume you mean the source for their statistics.

As I said, all I want really os for religions to keep to themselves and let us choose to live as we wish.

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#14008 - 03/23/06 05:32 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Dan. You did start the body-count game.

The worst blood lettings of the 20th century.

Rank Death Toll Event Dates

1 55,000,000 Second World War (Some overlap w/Stalin. Includes Sino-Japanese War and Holocaust. Doesn't incl. post-war German expulsions) 1937/39-1945

2 40,000,000 China: Mao Zedong's regime. (incl. famine) 1949-76

3 20,000,000 USSR: Stalin's regime (incl. WW2-era atrocities) 1924-53

4 15,000,000 First World War (incl. Armenian massacres) 1914-18

5 8,800,000 Russian Civil War 1918-21

6 4,000,000 China: Warlord & Nationalist Era 1917-37

7 3,000,000 Congo Free State [n.1] (1900)-08

All SECULAR

For a Grand Total of 145,000,000 dead bodies chalked up to the non-religious.

And I could go on.


This alone, in just under 80 years dwarfs anything religion has achieved, and I could continue to add to it.

Blacknad.

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#14009 - 03/23/06 05:38 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Dan wrote - "You should be more careful. Lying is a sin. ;-)"

Dan, if I've misrepresented anything I'm sorry. It is not my intention and I will retract anything that I come to realise is false.

I know that you are honest and have integrity and I don't want to be any different.

I feel the need to say that although the debate has been robust, I still have a high regard for you and don't want you to think otherwise.

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#14010 - 03/23/06 05:44 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Dan wrote - "The fact that 6,000,000 people were intentionally murdered by self-professed Christians."

- If it's true I won't deny it. Probably just my ignorance of history. Do you have a reference for me to check it out?

Blacknad.

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#14011 - 03/23/06 06:07 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Chaoslillith wrote - "I just want one Christian to admit that organized religion in the wrong hands is evil and that the world would be better off if people did not feel the need to force their beliefs on others."

- I couldn't agree more on both counts. Organized religion in any hands is dangerous and becomes about power and caters to the basest instincts of humanity. I would never defend it and would be entirely happy to see its demise.

As for anyone forcing their beliefs on anyone else - also an utter disgrace. You probably have the idea from my posts that I am a religious nutter who talks about nothing but my religion. If so, you couldn't be further from the truth. As scripture tells me 'when asked always be prepared to give an answer for the hope you have'. But I don't keep bringing the subject up and would certainly not try to badger someone into believing what I believe.

Organized religion is problematic because it is counter to the whole idea behind Christ's teachings - 'Lay down power, and take up love'. We are called to serve. Real Christianity is about an internal struggle for every believer to overcome their own natural selfishness and direct their time and energy and finances outwards towards others. This is about individuals being transformed and then trying to serve others as a way of life. It is nothing to do with giant organizations - (Christianity by committee - the worst kind of horror story).

There are millions of Christians not affiliated to Big Church who just quietly get on with life and are completely un-news worthy.

Of course you only ever get to hear about the corrupt church and the vocal nutters, like the right wing loonies, the white supremacists, the gay haters and the Creationists wanting to get rid of evolution in schools.

I am simply trying to defend my right to have my beliefs after seeing religion getting a good beating on this forum. I can see that eventually Christianity will come under a form of post-modern persecution and the good religion will be beat up along with the bad.

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#14012 - 03/23/06 06:15 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Chaoslillith wrote - "Hehe, you did notice the statistic of Christians killing Christians correct?"

- Yes I did. And as Dan is challenging my honesty (although in jest I think), you did notice that I wasn't sneaky enough to delete it.

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#14013 - 03/23/06 06:16 PM Re: Existance of "Christ"
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad wrote:
"Dan. You did start the body-count game.

The worst blood lettings of the 20th century."

You are correct and for that I make no apology. My point which you have not and can not dispute is that the world has been an awful place. It follows from that directly that the death of Jesus Christ accomplished precisely what?

Had he not died? Had Christianity never existed Mao would have murdered 41,000,000 rather than just 40,000,000? Hitler would have found more Jews to round up and gas?

By putting these numbers here for everyone to see do you think anyone is looking at them and saying a silent prayer something like: "Thank you Jesus for making the world a better place"?

The Second World War, with the exception of Japan, was a war fought entirely between so-called Christian countries (Australia, Austria, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Poland, UK, Ukraine, US). Do you think it would have turned out differently if the combatants where atheists? agnostics? deists? dentists?

And precisely what happened in the time of Noah that was cause to drown everyone that was so much worse than what happened in 1939 or 1941 or 1943?
Did the criteria change for starting over? Did god say well that ancient evil was really bad but burning 6,000,000 people to death in ovens is accptable?

Blacknad wrote:
"if I've misrepresented anything I'm sorry"

No need to apologize. The smily face, ;-), was there to tell you I was saying it in jest.

Blacknad wrote with respect to the holocaust:
"Do you have a reference for me to check it out?"

You live in the UK and you don't know the history of WW2? What has Tony Blair done to you blokes?
Start here: http://www.ushmm.org
http://www.yadvashem.org
http://holocaustcenter.org

Blacknad wrote:
"I am simply trying to defend my right to have my beliefs after seeing religion getting a good beating on this forum."

If you were one of those people who you describe as: "just quietly get on with life and are completely un-news worthy." you'd not feel the need to defend anything. What takes a beating in this forum is not Christianity but rather all belief systems based on denial of the scientific method. Let me give you an example.

If someone posted the following nonsense:
"My children are beautiful and intelligent" I would consider it to be total garbage. All parents think that of their children. If they didn't we'd have died out long ago. But the fact that a parent believes this does not make it objective reality.
The fact that people believe in a virgin birth that never happened and for which there is zero evidence. And the fact people believe in a resurrection that never happened and for which there is zero evidence is roughly the equivalent of a mother thinking her child is beautiful. The difference is that the mother doesn't start a war because her child is more beautiful than another mother's child. There are no maternal terrorism incidents. Relgious nonsense is a proven danger to society. Don't believe me? Ask the people that were riding the buses in London last year.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#14014 - 03/24/06 12:27 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Dan wrote - "You live in the UK and you don't know the history of WW2? What has Tony Blair done to you blokes?"

- Dan, I said I was ignorant of the fact that 6,000,000 Jews were killed by self-professed Christians, not of the 2ndWW in general.

You wrote ? ?But Carter was wrong. 6,000,000 Jews did not die of sectarian violence. They were exterminated by Christians due to their religion.?

That was what I was responding to.

The pitiful record the church has with Jews cannot be denied, and it is truly sickening?

?The same was true of Protestant churches. The pamphlet ?On the Jews and their Lies,? written by German religious reformer Martin Luther in 1542, used extremely violent language. It called on Christians to set synagogues on fire, to destroy Jewish houses, and to put Jews in stables, and it advised rulers to banish Jews from their countries. Luther?s writings had a significant influence on German Protestant theologians and also contributed to a climate of opinion that condoned or approved persecution of Jews.?

- http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761559508/Holocaust.html


However, the reason the Jews were killed by the Germans had less to do with religion than you might think.

?Many Germans blamed the Jews for Germany?s defeat in World War I, some even claiming that German Jews had betrayed the nation during the war. In addition, at the end of the war a Communist group attempted to carry out a Bolshevik-type revolution in the German state of Bavaria. Most of the leaders of that failed attempt were Jews. As a result, some Germans associated Jews with Bolsheviks and regarded both groups as dangerous enemies of Germany. After the war, a republic known as the Weimar Republic was set up in Germany. Jewish politicians and intellectuals played an important role in German life during the Weimar Republic, and many non-Jews resented their influence.?

- http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761559508/Holocaust.html

The Jews were victims of their own success as entrepreneurs during and after the Industrial Revolution. Their success and power was resented.


Although Christians were not responsible for the holocaust, as you think, the writings of Luther clearly echo down the centuries and have influence.

Regarding Christianity?s treatment of the Jews, the established Church and organized religion once again demonstrates that it is a naturally corrupting phenomenon and is capable of perverting its very own congregation.

When it is held up against the teachings of the very individual they profess to follow, it is found wanting and clearly paying only lip-service to the faith:

?Love even your enemies?.

It cannot possibly get any clearer than that and takes a wilful act of ignorance or sheer defiance to ignore it.


However, once again, real Christianity is left to the individuals (The Remnant) who really know and follow Christ:

?The book lists the names of 3000 of the more than 50000 Christian Poles killed by the Germans for assisting Jews during the Holocaust. ...?

- www.holocaustforgotten.com/Lucaire.htm

So 50 thousand Christians were executed in Poland for helping Jews, despite clearly knowing that the penalty for helping them was death.


Jesus is quoted as saying of his followers, ?By their fruits they shall be known?.

Dan, you believe that anyone who professes to be a Christian is actually a Christian ? Christ knew better and so do I ? they are defined by the actions they produce.

I want the death of organized religion - the separation of church and state in all instances, and the end of the church inflicting its views upon the rest of society.

I want people to retain the freedom to choose whether they wish to know and follow Christ or not, and if so, to freely do so without the corrupting influence of organized religion.

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#14015 - 03/24/06 03:58 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
Jumpin' Jehosophat!!! A Christian who gets it!!

YEE HAW! (that is actually serious sentiment by the way).

Thanks for being on the same side as me, now if we could remove the tax free standing for churches we would see what would really happen to religion if people had to pay to keep those buildings open.

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#14016 - 03/24/06 04:31 AM Re: Existance of "Christ"
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Blacknad and all others:

You are providing DA with a platform to belittle your beliefs. It is wasteful because he is concrete in his attitude, dogmatic. When an idea has a focus of why male humans have niples you should get a sign that rational discussion is not available. We do not change history by talking about it. We should not invite immature thoughts to get serious consideration. In 77 years I learned it is possible to be clever and still ignorant and insecure. But Not me.
jjw

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