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#13843 02/11/06 04:39 AM
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Blacknad wrote:
"Dan, the message may seem ambiguous, but those who choose an honest exploration of God find things that confirm the message."

Are you sure? Those of the Jewish faith didn't get it? Those who are Shiite, Suni, Alawite didn't get it. Those who are Hindu, Buddhist didn't get it. And even within the family of Christianity, beginning most obviously with Martin Luther there has been violent disagreement that turned into many a bloody war with respect to that interpretation.

I find it hard to believe the message is subject to unambiguous interpretation when people stick swords into other people, when people burn other people at the stake, due to different interpretations. Reconsider your statement. And I most certainly consider my personal friend who is a Lutheran minister a very sincere Christian and I think he and philege would not agree on much of anything other than the temperature at which water boils: Certainly nothing theological.

Blacknad wrote:
"I know he is utterly trustworthy but he has admitted that he has seen physical manifestations that are beyond the explainable ? heavy objects moving across the room etc."

Is your friend trustworthy? Absoltely. Is he telling you the truth as he honestly believes it? Absolutely. Do I believe I or a video camera would have recorded the event as he described it? Not a chance in the world.

A bit of history ... my step-daughter used to see things like that too. Then we put her on antidepressants. A year later she shopped having those experiences. To you it is evidence of something beyond the material. To me it is evidence of psychosis.

A very good friend of mine just got out of the hospital and is staying with me for a week or two. Today, while asleep, he had a fully believable dream that when he woke up there were six old men standing around him in a semi-circle, all dressed as Beef Eaters and all singing a Heinz Pickle jingle he hadn't heard since the 1960s. He sang it to me more than once this evening while simultaneously admitting he hadn't heard it in 35+ years. Was his experience any less real than your friends? No. The difference is that he is able to attribute it to a specific synthetic opiate. I am afraid I would refer your friend, as I have others, for treatment. And while you may not wish to hear it ... I've no doubt that once receiving that standard treatment protocol he would never experience those things again.

The problem with the things you offer up as evidence is that they are ALL anecdotal. ALL impossible to confirm. ALL impossible to reproduce. They are more easily dismissed than believed. So I put to you a challenge. Find a single one of these incidents that can pass the test of science? Surely god(s) don't run and hide at the sight of a college researcher with video equipment.


DA Morgan
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#13844 02/17/06 08:53 PM
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So would I though I personally I've no doubt there was a self-annointed trouble-maker by that name.

What I'd love to see come out is the most authoritative reference to the crucifixion, that in the Quran, in which it states that following custom of the time he bought his way out with money. Not a particularly god-like act. Faked the balance and escaped quite possibly to the Western Mediterranean.

--------------------
DA Morgan

The good thing about the Romans, is that they kept records. Jesus sentence of death by Pontius Pilate actually exists. The guards who ran away from the cave where Jesus was buried testimony was recorded in the annals of the Romans and the Jews. All Jew know about Jesus, if you ask them they know about him but refuse to acknowledge Him like some people we know. I will post details of a book one can buy which was written over century ago, which was a comprehensive research into the scriptures and their authorship. This will rock what Morgan writes here. One of the chief aims of the wicked one is to deny that Jesus died for mankind. He and his agents have worked tirelessly to decieve mankind

#13845 02/17/06 09:00 PM
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Are you sure? Those of the Jewish faith didn't get it? Those who are Shiite, Suni, Alawite didn't get it. Those who are Hindu, Buddhist didn't get it. And even within the family of Christianity, beginning most obviously with Martin Luther there has been violent disagreement that turned into many a bloody war with respect to that interpretation.

I find it hard to believe the message is subject to unambiguous interpretation when people stick swords into other people, when people burn other people at the stake, due to different interpretations. Reconsider your statement. And I most certainly consider my personal friend who is a Lutheran minister a very sincere Christian and I think he and philege would not agree on much of anything other than the temperature at which water boils: Certainly nothing theological.

Martin Luther was a rebellious priest, who could not contain his celibacy and sought a way out So he began by throwing the Holy Bread to the floor. It was not long after that that he found release by marrying a rebellious nun. He will get his reward for causing a split and terrible war within the Catholic Church.

#13846 02/17/06 09:11 PM
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www.freerepublic.com/forum/a385fd4494136.htm

Lest I get accused of lying about Pontius Pilate's Historical notes, check out this site.

#13847 02/17/06 09:12 PM
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Hope you find it interesting reading Mista Morgan!

#13848 02/17/06 09:18 PM
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www.ntrmin.org/The Roman Catholic Understanding of Martin Luther

For a little info about Luther try this one!

#13849 02/17/06 09:21 PM
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www.ntrmin.org/The Roman Catholic Understanding of Martin Luther 1.htm

oops sorry try this one

#13850 02/17/06 09:28 PM
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Philege wrote:
"The good thing about the Romans, is that they kept records."

And have you personally seen the Roman records?
Do you know anyone that has personally seen those Roman records?

If so name names and places. Those web sites are the antithesis of authoritative. The they are the moral equivalent to learning about Islam from bin Laden.

If you want to be taken seriously point me to an authoritative source of those records. And consider, too, that IT IS the Roman Catholic church, in that very same Rome to which you belong. The history of fraud, the history of murder, the history of deception is far better documented.

But as to my personal opinion. I do believe that someone was nailed on a cross. Was that person Jesus or some other hapless soul? No one can or will ever be able to say for sure.

But the one thing we can say for sure is that there is little less "Christian" in its behaviour than what happened in the Catholic Church for the first ~1,400 years thereafter.


DA Morgan
#13851 02/17/06 11:13 PM
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www.innsyn.com/english/pilates_report.htm

Okay Morgan try this one then!

#13852 02/18/06 05:23 AM
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people what have you done- locked him in your golden cage- made him bend to your religion- him resurrected from the grave- he is the god of nothing- if that's all that you can see- you are the god of everything- he's inside you and me- jethro tull


confused
#13853 02/18/06 05:47 AM
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Philege wrote:
"Okay Morgan try this one then!"

I did. Who owns that web site? I don't see a name.
Who pays for that web site? I don't see an affiliation?
What makes that web site authoritative?

It is a crock Philege. Just look, for example, at the opening paragraph:

"From the "Archo Volume," containing Manuscripts, in Constantinople, and the Records of the Senatorial Docket, taken from the Vatican at Rome. Translated by Drs. McIntosh and Twyman, of the Antiquarian Lodge, Genoa, Italy)."

Or so it says. Who are Drs. McIntosh and Twyman? No first name, no college from which they graduated. Don't know if their doctorates are in divinity from a religious school, medical degrees as veterinarians, or PhDs in astrophysics.

What is the Archo Volume? Do you know? Do you know who wrote it? Do you know if the translation is authoritative? Do you know who has independently validated the source and translation.

Philege ... you are an embarrasement to sentient humans. You are an embarrasement to your church. And you if you are over 16 years old you should be ashamed to post a link to such nonsense.


DA Morgan
#13854 02/18/06 05:48 AM
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Thank you wrongway. Well done!


DA Morgan
#13855 02/18/06 12:58 PM
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I read it too. It just didn't feel authentic and felt fabricated. Without something to help give credence to its authenticity, I would have to discount it.

Blacknad.

#13856 02/20/06 06:00 AM
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If God exists, would it be possible for him to demonstrate his reality, himself, to us? If we asked God, if there is one, to prove that he is real, could he do so; would he want to? If we asked God if, in fact, he could hear us, if he is really "there", somewhere, and aware that we were trying to communicate with him, should we be open to the possibility that he may answer us? If we define the term "God" as a pretty big and powerful and smart Being, is it reasonable to expect that he would have the capacity to fashion a convincing reply?


confused
#13857 02/20/06 04:25 PM
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wrongway asks:
"If God exists, would it be possible for him to demonstrate his reality, himself, to us?"

If you believe in the theological description, the only one that matters, yes.

A couple of simple examples that I personally would find extremely convincing:

1. Stop all earthquakes ... everywhere ... I don't mean just the big 7.0 and above earthquakes ... I mean all of them.

2. Violate the known laws of physics. Not a mediocre violation from the standpoint of the lay-public but one that would impress a Feynmann or an Einstein. Perhaps change the value of Pi to be precisely 3.0000000000000000000000000000000.


DA Morgan
#13858 02/20/06 11:51 PM
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if God exists, would it be alright if he chose his own unique manner to manifest his presence? does it make sense to give God the freedom to answer us in a way that not only he chooses, whatever that might be, but one which may not even remotely resemble what I would prefer? In other words, does God have to yield to us, and to be and to do what we would like, or hope for, or insist upon, or is God allowed to make his own choices? If we want to know if he exists, if that is the question we want him to answer, then the "proof" he offers, (if, in fact he does exist, and could answer), would be up to him, right? if what we really desire is the answer to that question, then it wouldn't make any difference how he gave us his answer, would it? it would only matter that he prove to our satisfaction, beyond any doubt, that he exists.


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#13859 02/21/06 02:06 AM
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wrongway asks
"if God exists, would it be alright if he chose his own unique manner to manifest his presence?"

Yes and no. The issue is not one of the manner of communication but rather the nature of communication. If a deity is incapable of a simple universal communication the deity is a fraud. What we have so far experienced of theoretical Judeo-Christian-Islamic deity is a gross inability to communicate even with those who claim to be the intended recipients.

wrongway asks:
"In other words, does God have to yield to us"

Depends on what you mean by your question. A deity absolutely MUST yield to our abilities and weaknesses to receive and understand the communication. Give everyone on the planet a simultaneous papercut and you've communicated clearly and ambiguously. Hire some nutcase in some off-beat part of the planet to run around with 12 fools who later declare him to be divine and you've a recipe for wars.

wrongway wrote:
"if what we really desire is the answer to that question, then it wouldn't make any difference how he gave us his answer, would it?"

Seems to me you are beating a dead horse here. How many more times are you going to posture the same nonsense? Would saying the same thing 10 or 20 more times make it more meaningful for you?

Lets postulate that there really is a god or godess that created the universe. Lets further postulate that this creature created us and wishes to communicate with us. Is it for us to demand a specific means or method of communication? No. Is it for us to demand that the communication be competent? Clear? Concise? Unambiguous? Damned right!

Now please stop repeating yourself ad nauesum and come up with an original thought. What you just posted belongs in the archives of redundant redundancies.


DA Morgan
#13860 03/16/06 01:20 AM
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There is a funny thing about presumption.
If you presume someone is a liar, then everything you attribute to them could be false. Which makes it eazier to disregard what they have to say, without having to do any kind of work proving the falsehood.
People often have an adjenda when they look at life in this way. They wish for things to fit a presumption so they are free of conscientious regret.
Saying, "Let us STATE this as false and get on with our lives" is a cop out. Intelligent people would use a less sceptical way of looking at everything. Using antagonistic prose and belittling people of faith as unintelligent, is also a cop out. Very well educated people in physical sciences have faith in God. Calling someone stupid doesn't make them stupid, it makes the caller stupid.
I think of everyone as a seeker, seeking truth. I find truth in the things that I have read about science and philosophy, religion and politics, history and fiction. The measure of mans cruelty can be accertained by reading "Tom Sawyer" or "Job" or "The Diary of Anne Franke" or the Memoirs of Cory Ten-Boom or Charles F. Hopkins. The extent of mans goodness can be seen in Biographies of Jonas Salk, Ghandi, the Dali Lhamma, Billy Graham, and dozens of others.
You can say that the majority of people on this planet believe in some sort of higher being or existence, most of the people I mentioned also did. Lets just call every person of renown who believed in God an Idiot, and then see if we were right.

It isn't my Vocation to prove God to anyone, it is only my Vocation to encourage people to look for God. If you can't find him it's your fault, not God's. Call me a kook if you must to make yourself fell better.

I think to much I think.
rlb60123

#13861 03/16/06 01:36 AM
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Dear DA

You said...
If you believe in the theological description, the only one that matters, yes.

A couple of simple examples that I personally would find extremely convincing:

1. Stop all earthquakes ... everywhere ... I don't mean just the big 7.0 and above earthquakes ... I mean all of them.

2. Violate the known laws of physics. Not a mediocre violation from the standpoint of the lay-public but one that would impress a Feynmann or an Einstein. Perhaps change the value of Pi to be precisely 3.0000000000000000000000000000000.

My answer to 1 is from the Bible, where God said "They shall seek a sign but none shall be given them." If God gave a Sign then God would Lie, because God said he would give no sign.
My answer to 2 is common sense, if God Doesn't lie why ask Him for a sign that makes a LIE True.

And Finally, why is my conversion to Atheism so important to you? Why does my thinking a God exists have to be changed, or argued? I am not forcing my belief off on you, and yet you insist on attacking my belief. Makes me think like you are Running from God because God Scares you, and that is rather Juvenile.
I have a challenge for you then, if you are not afraid, find in the Bible how God spoke to Elijah. If you can't find it, then you aren't worthy to KNOW God.

I think to much I think.
rlb60123

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