Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Not-Quite-Science Forum what the heck, why don't we all just die?

Ha ha Ha, **** off bellator, if you really exist, which I doubt. Anyhoo yes we die, get used to it, have you any idea of the phenominal unlikeliness of your existence in the first place? I doubt it! It's damn, DAMN!!! unlikely!!!
We sentient beings are the fortunate few. make the most & don't take the piss. ta ta.

Dude, nobody can answer that one for you. Everybody has to find their own reason to live. I'm living so I can write a book - I love to read. My sister lives because she wants to save people - she's an EMT. If you're feeling like there's no reason in your life, maybe it's time to go find one. Some people live for God (singular, plural, any gender you choose), some for the pleasure they take in food, some for the pleasure they take in making other people happy. Some live to make life better for others through science. Cats live for napping on pillows and crunchy mice; mice live for warm burrows and sweet grass. Grass lives for sunshine and rain. Stars live to burn howling winds of particles into empty space. We're only a little more complicated than grass and mice, and in the end we all live for something, or we get depressed.

Here's a trick; there's no bad reason to live except hurting others. Anything you pick, no matter how profound or how silly, is a perfectly good reason to live.

Don't overthink it, ya know? Sometimes it's the little obvious stuff that we miss because we're so busy being smart and thinking deep thoughts.

Live to be a good person, useful to others and society, good to yourself and your family. Or live to have adventures, travel the world and see new stuff. Whatever. Be a nice guy, be an interesting jerk, be yourself.

"there's no bad reason to live except hurting others"
- Who decided that was bad?

Blacknad.

Blacknad asks:
"Who decided that was bad?"

Good question. And there are a number of possible choices.

1. A supreme being ... the one you are angling for.
2. A dictator or emporer who "is" the law
3. A hereditary heir who "is" the law
4. A legislative body chosen by the people
5. The people themselves by consensus
6. Each of us as individuals.

Each has its pluses and each its negatives.

#1 fails because of the simple fact that the supreme being seems to demand either #2 or #3 to tell us what it meant as it is too incompetent to communicate directly.

Which takes us to #2 or #3 all of which, over time, have proven beyond reasonable dispute Lord Acton's saying: "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

#4 Is what is currently present in most Western nations and seems to work reasonably well.

#5 Worked in ancient Greece but unless technology intercedes seems unworkable with large modern populations.

#6 Has the blessing that in any given situation at least one person will always be happy ... and the curse that that one person may be the only one.

So having reviewed the possibilities we are left with #4 or #5 as the best we've seen before but we must also acknowledge that they only work well when those elected/selected and those electing them are well educated and have been taught a moral and ethical compass by which to evaluate their actions.

Of course the religious nuts all want to claim ownership of that compass and the right to spin it but that really just takes us back to #2 or #3 so to answer your question Blacknad ... I suggest, in fact I urge you and others, to read the writings of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. Washington especially with respect to Cincinnatus and just about anything Thomas Jefferson ever wrote.

Here are a few quotes to help you on your way.

"Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force. And, like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
~ George Washington

"As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are
equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality."
~ George Washington

Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.
~ George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792

I hope I shall possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of all titles, the character of an honest man.
~ George Washington

The foolish and wicked practice of profane cursing and swearing is a vice so mean and low that every person of sense and character detests and despises it.
~ George Washington

Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it.
~ Thomas Jefferson

Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
~ Thomas Jefferson

Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.
~ Thomas Jefferson

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
~ Thomas Jefferson

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.
~ Thomas Jefferson
... one of my personal favorites

I am mortified to be told that, in the United States of America, the sale of a book can become a subject of inquiry, and of criminal inquiry too.
~ Thomas Jefferson
.. which of course won't stop George Bush

I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.
~ Thomas Jefferson
(just for you Blacknad)

I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.
~ Thomas Jefferson
.. there's one for Christian Conservatives to choke on

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.
~ Thomas Jefferson

In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
~ Thomas Jefferson

In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.
~ Thomas Jefferson

It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God.
~ Thomas Jefferson

Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.
~ Thomas Jefferson

And there are hundreds if not thousands more where these came from.

#1 fails because of the simple fact that the supreme being seems to demand either #2 or #3 to tell us what it meant as it is too incompetent to communicate directly.

REP: God's morality is clear enough for those who wish to live by it. Those who have never read it, we are told, will be judged by the degree to which they have listened to their conscience, even if their conscience differs in the details.

For me the Ten Commandments etc. are clear enough (despite what you say about their inconsistencies). I don't think it is God's responsibility to prevent us from dreaming up the other 1000 conflicting moral systems. Either people reject him and follow one of their choice, or they accept him and follow his.


4. A legislative body chosen by the people

- Option 4 is basically morality by opinion pole. It follows behaviour and doesn't try to inform it any longer. Boston MA currently feel the need to reduce the penalty for beastiality. How long before we can expect to see 'It's a viable alternative option to straight or gay sex' in our childrens sex education classes? As morality continues to slide into the garbage bin we move ever closer to Crowley's "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law".

At least Christianity's morality is relatively stable, as opposed to our current relativistic muddle.

You are way too fond of quoting other's opinions as if it gives yours more credence. They simply agree with you, nothing more - it has no bearing upon whether you are right or wrong. Do you think Christians are short of significant people to back up what we think? But that would be equally valueless, a la Einstein.

Blacknad.

Blacknad wrote:
"God's morality is clear enough for those who wish to live by it."

Please refer back to your previous post where you acknowledged that this morality may well include creating smallpox and polio. Morality that includes drowning innocent newborn children. Morality that incudes genocide. You want to live by that morality?
I hope the state takes your daughter away from you for her protection.

Blacknad wrote:
"For me the Ten Commandments etc. are clear enough"

Now you've stepped in it. You don't even know the Ten Commandment's God gave to Moses. And yet you are going to follow them. Talk about the blind being led to the slaughter. I'm serious here Blacknad. You don't even know the Ten Commandments. Your religion has lied to you and if you've the nerve to post what you believe here I will prove it to you.

Blacknad wrote:
"At least Christianity's morality is relatively stable, as opposed to our current relativistic muddle."

But most of us are not Christians. Why are you so willing to force your personal morality and your personal religion on the rest of us? How would you feel if I forced you to live by my beliefs? Seems rather obvious you are taking your directions from the Osama bin Laden playbook?

Blacknad ... Einstein was a physicist. He was also a philanderer par excellance. You put up a man as a source of religious inspiration who couldn't keep his zipper up any more than Paris Hilton can keep her skirts down.

FYI: In past posts you came off as someone capable of sentient thought and as a caring person striving to find truth. Today you come off as a monster who would have felt right-at-home turning in his own family to the inquisition. What changed? Is someone looking over your shoulder or writing this for you?

Dan wrote - "Please refer back to your previous post where you acknowledged that this morality may well include creating smallpox and polio. Morality that includes drowning innocent newborn children. Morality that includes genocide. You want to live by that morality?
I hope the state takes your daughter away from you for her protection."

REP: Thanks for your concern for my daughter. However the way God acts and the way he has asked us to act are two very different things. Just as it is not the best of things to allow my daughter to drink coffee as I do, because her body is unable to metabolize it as effectively. Horses for courses - surely you can see the difference.

Dan wrote - "Now you've stepped in it. You don't even know the Ten Commandment's God gave to Moses. And yet you are going to follow them. Talk about the blind being led to the slaughter. I'm serious here Blacknad. You don't even know the Ten Commandments. Your religion has lied to you and if you've the nerve to post what you believe here I will prove it to you."

REP: Okay - I'm going to go back to your post on the 10 commandments and do the exercise you set out. I did have a cursory glance to compare the two sets, but just saw a difference in order - maybe I have missed it.

Dan wrote - "But most of us are not Christians. Why are you so willing to force your personal morality and your personal religion on the rest of us? How would you feel if I forced you to live by my beliefs? Seems rather obvious you are taking your directions from the Osama bin Laden playbook?"

REP: Come on Dan. Where did you get the idea that I wish to force anything on anyone? I am as much against this as you are. I am simply stating that there is value in Christian morality. Whether people choose to live by it is their decision. I just think that Christian morality set out by Christ and Paul makes sense.

Dan wrote - "Blacknad ... Einstein was a physicist. He was also a philanderer par excellance. You put up a man as a source of religious inspiration who couldn't keep his zipper up any more than Paris Hilton can keep her skirts down."

- The point you are making would preclude me from commenting upon religion. I am certainly not the best of people and other Christians would probably judge harshly some of the things I do and have done. I am just a better person when relating to God that when I'm not. In fact the church is full of stupid and faulty people like me - the ones who recognise a need for God. Jesus said it himself, 'it's the sick I have come for - not the well'. It doesn't surprise me that the church has such a high rate of sex offenders - these are exactly the type of people that you would expect to find admitting a profound need for God.

Dan wrote - "FYI: In past posts you came off as someone capable of sentient thought and as a caring person striving to find truth. Today you come off as a monster who would have felt right-at-home turning in his own family to the inquisition. What changed? Is someone looking over your shoulder or writing this for you?"

REP: If I felt you really knew me or really understood my thinking in entirety, then I would maybe worry about what you say here. It is possible to believe what I believe and yet still follow Christ's teaching about loving and serving one another. And that is from the personal to the communal to the global. We have no excuse to do other than treat all people with compassion on any level.

I manage a large team of people and tread the fine line between effectively managing their performance and showing compassion for them and serving their needs. I'll blow my own horn here - my team's performance and 360 feedbacks and retention rate exceeds any of my four peers. Well it's the horn of Christian principles I'm blowing really because those are the systematic principles I apply and Christ constantly softens my heart towards people. And I feel deeply if any of them suffers with anything. Not a monster.

And these are my own thoughts - nothing you have said yet has proven the non-existence of God. You have shown that there is doubt about the evidence for Jesus, but have not proven his non-existence or that there is no veracity in his recorded actions. You have, however, clearly demonstrated that you only reach God by faith and cannot figure Him out intellectually and the Christian faith is not reasonable by human standards. You have yet to conclusively prove that it should be.

I told you I should quit while you still had a good thing to think of me - I was probably right.

Blacknad.

Blacknad wrote:
"Horses for courses - surely you can see the difference."

I can not and neither can history. History has repeatedly demonstrated that people willing to take orders from god, meaning of course those that claim to speak for him, are capable of crimes against humanity.

Blacknad wrote:
"I'm going to go back to your post on the 10 commandments ... maybe I have missed it.

By a country mile. But do not parrot back the copy of the 10 big ones from what I posted. Post the ones from your personal belief and let me expose the truth of what they actually are: A fabrication.

Blacknad:
"I am simply stating that there is value in Christian morality."

I agree. There is value in Hindu morality. There is value in Shinto morality. There is value in Jewish and Islamic morality. There is value in Eastern Orthodox AND Roman Catholic morality. And yet for all of the value precisely how long have the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches been separated? How many deaths have resulted?

Do you remember the saying about practicing what you preach? Well the day the Lutherans and the Roman Catholics use that Christian morality for something other than waving around like a flag and apologize for the wanton death and destruction they caused in hundreds of years of bloody war I will start to pay attention. Talk is cheap. Where are the results?

What you are saying is no different from the heads of the Soviet Union or the PRC pointing to their constitutions and saying ... we are a free people. According to their constitutions they were. Some of us, however, looked beneath the covers and saw a horror show. That is precisely what Christian morality is. Looks great on paper. The practice however is utter nonsense and you know it.

Blacknad wrote:
"I manage a large team of people and tread the fine line between effectively managing their performance and showing compassion for them and serving their needs."

Blow your own horn if you wish. But attempting to change the subject is not allowed. Move past the rhetoric. Move to reality. The greatest integrity and peace on this planet is practiced in Colleges and Univeristies. We have never fought a war. We freely exchange ideas and meet without regard to language, religion, sexual orientation, nationality, or other prejudices. The world would be a far far happier place if we scrapped every relgious organization, sold off their trillions of dollars in holdings and used the money to educate the poor, and then let science and the scientific method be the philosophy of the future.

Do I believe scientists uncorruptable? No.
Do I believe it too would fail over time? Yes.
But it could do no worse than you and your church.

Time to take of the blinders Blacknad. Time to move past the empty words and broken promises. Your religion has not improved the quality of life on this planet. One success here ... a thousand failures everywhere else.

Bellator, I'm sorry it took me so long to read the chapter you posted a while back.
Thanks for typing it out...it really is an interesting synopsis of reality without spirituality.