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#13361 - 04/03/06 06:30 AM Re: genisis is NOT possible
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
jjw004 wrote:
"You want to interpret "we had god on our side" as some kind of confirmation that a god had a hand in the horrors."

No. The bible is full of accounts of god taking a hand in the horrors. Would you like me to point them out to you? Well just one for now.

Joshua 6:
2 And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.

3 And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days.

21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

And all done with god on their side.

This is your belief system: Embrace it.
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DA Morgan

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#13362 - 04/03/06 05:18 PM Re: genisis is NOT possible
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
It is not my belief system.
I try to discuss the issue objectively.

You are in a strange position because you deny the entire belief system and any documents that pertain there to but you single out references that you feel support your arguments.

If the Bible and all it contains is a fairy tale to you then what does it matter what it contains? The Hebrew god of the Bible may not have been a god at all, just another man that had some unique advantage to do harm.
jjw

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#13363 - 04/03/06 06:38 PM Re: genisis is NOT possible
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
jjw004 wrote:
"You are in a strange position because you deny the entire belief system and any documents that pertain there to but you single out references that you feel support your arguments."

Not strange at all. If you are going to say as you have: "You want to interpret "we had god on our side" as some kind of confirmation that a god had a hand in the horrors." Then I, being a good researcher, go to the source of your statement to determine whether it passes muster.

What I find is a bloody awful lot of genocide performed, according to the sole source of information, with not just your god's acquiescence but active assistance.

What I especially love about Joshua is:
"both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword."

A celebration of murdering children and the elderly. How inspiring.

jw004 wrote:
"If the Bible and all it contains is a fairy tale to you then what does it matter what it contains?

It matters as if it is not true then all of Judiaism, Christianity, and Islam is false.

jw004 wrote:
The Hebrew god of the Bible may not have been a god at all, just another man that had some unique advantage to do harm."

I agree completely. But if you consider that Jesus Christ was Jewish and Christianity springs from the faith of Abramham in the same way that Islam springs from the faith of Mohammed which begins with Ibrahim (same person) you end up with all three religions being false. Are you prepared to accept this? Surely Jesus can not say "father" and not be referring to the deity of the Old Testament. The very same father that actively supported the slaughter of children referenced above.

And I'm not trying to spin things. If there is evidence that Jesus was not referring to the deity of the Old Testament then I am left wondering who he was referring to and why Christianity begins scripture with the five Mosaic books.

I just don't think you can have it one way when it is most convenient and another way when it is not.
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DA Morgan

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#13364 - 04/04/06 01:12 AM Re: genisis is NOT possible
Pragmatist Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/06
Posts: 84
Loc: N.W. U.S.
So we seem to come down to the question of the
morality, or by extention, the nature, of God.
That leads to the question:
"Does the yeast comprehend the baker?"
While belief is a matter of choice, expecting to
comprehend a being who by definition created the
universe that we still fail to understand, and
therefore must be larger than his creation, has
got to be foolish in the extreme.
Pragmatist
"Some days it's just not worth chewing
through the Restraints."

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#13365 - 04/04/06 02:31 AM Re: genisis is NOT possible
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Pragmatist asks:
"Does the yeast comprehend the baker?"

And of course we all answer "No!"

But the analogy is only valid if there is a yeast-priest (nice rhyme) running around with the "Baker's Book" telling other yeast that he has it direct from the baker how to behave."

I am more than willing to accept a deity beyond human comprehension. What I am not willing to accept is a rabbi, imam, priest, pope, or shaman telling me that the deity is beyond MY comprehension but he knows what I should do to behave according to the diety's wishes.

I've no objection to philosophy ... just hypocrisy.
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#13366 - 04/21/06 10:31 AM Re: genisis is NOT possible
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Robert Miller wrote
I have to know; how many people here believe it is possible to make something out of nothing?

if you think that its impossible to make something out of nothing, youve never had an arguement with some of the posters in this forum. laugh

on the other hand i dont believe the earth was created created out of nothing in 7 days. nor do i believe that they earth was created some 5 thousand years ago.
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the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#13367 - 06/19/06 09:01 AM Re: genisis is NOT possible
evil star genius Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/19/06
Posts: 7
Hey, Rob,
Genisis is also the Big Bang, and it's been proven, so why not?
Besides, how do you know it is really "nothingness"? Has it been proven? Maybe there was something at first, how would you ever know?
But if there wasn't, it sounds so...weird! create something out of nothingness? Yeah right. They say two particles crashed. Uh huh, but that's not exactly "nothingness", right?
Two particles are something. But what particles?

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#13368 - 06/19/06 09:05 AM Re: genisis is NOT possible
evil star genius Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/19/06
Posts: 7
Robert Miller says:Here's a good question; assuming that outside the universe there is nothing (don't THINK so, but anyway...) does nothing inhabit infinity or does infinity inhabit nothingness? hmmm...

It's really hard to imagine the universe being everything. I mean, I just can't picture the universe taking up all the space.
I always see the universe in a small box, in a large white room with nothing in it except the box. Geddit?
Any one share my views?

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#13369 - 06/19/06 09:06 AM Re: genisis is NOT possible
evil star genius Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/19/06
Posts: 7
Hey, anyone thinks that another universe is possible?

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#13370 - 06/19/06 02:33 PM Re: genisis is NOT possible
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by evil star genius:
Hey, Rob,
Genisis is also the Big Bang, and it's been proven, so why not?
Besides, how do you know it is really "nothingness"? Has it been proven? Maybe there was something at first, how would you ever know?
But if there wasn't, it sounds so...weird! create something out of nothingness? Yeah right. They say two particles crashed. Uh huh, but that's not exactly "nothingness", right?
Two particles are something. But what particles?
the most common accepted theory is that all matter and energy were there, in some form we dont know now. all in some form of black hole or other simular tiny space.
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the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#13371 - 06/19/06 02:38 PM Re: genisis is NOT possible
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by evil star genius:
Robert Miller says:Here's a good question; assuming that outside the universe there is nothing (don't THINK so, but anyway...) does nothing inhabit infinity or does infinity inhabit nothingness? hmmm...

It's really hard to imagine the universe being everything. I mean, I just can't picture the universe taking up all the space.
I always see the universe in a small box, in a large white room with nothing in it except the box. Geddit?
Any one share my views?
a scifi writer posutlated that the universe is created as matter and energy push out into the barrenness of nothing.

another theory suggested that the reason that the galazies are accelerating is that the matter tries to fill a vaccum and the matter behind the fartherest galazies are pushing them outwords into the vaccum. it suggested that you imagine a balloon in a vaccum. the skin is strong but eventually burst, spreading the gas into the vaccume. the gas in the center would push the gas on the outer edge away faster.
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the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#13372 - 06/19/06 02:40 PM Re: genisis is NOT possible
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by evil star genius:
Hey, anyone thinks that another universe is possible?
that would be called a multiverse. you should google it. lots of scientist believe in them.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#13373 - 06/24/06 10:58 AM Re: genisis is NOT possible
anyman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 134
i do...

if by "nothing" you mean nothing material/physical, then i will take a stand with your statement

however, god, being self extant, not bound by the law of cause and effect (but rather the creator of it, the first cause, the uncaused cause), eternal, omnipresent, and omnipotent...is "something"

being spirit and omnipotent (all powerful), he was able to create from himself, out of his own existence and power, the material universe and all material things in it

therefore, the material universe was created out of nothing (material)...but not out of nothing at all :-)

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#13374 - 06/24/06 11:13 PM Re: genisis is NOT possible
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Sombody, I think it was a Mr. Rob, started this topic with the statement "Genisis is NOT possible". He was speaking of the Biblical stuff.

We are now concerned with the prospect of whether there are other Universes to be found outside the Universe wherein we reside. "anyman" may think so and if so he may wonder why that was not discussed in Genisis, a point of note?

When science gets a grip on our own Universe it may justify efforts to look for more of them.
jjw

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#13375 - 06/25/06 01:32 AM Re: genisis is NOT possible
anyman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 134
i thought to address the issue of multiverse above (as well as how omniscience fits into the mix), but didn't want to get into a long blah blah blah in my first post in years

i probably should have quoted RM from the beginning of the thread, but i'm a little out of practice and still unfamiliar with the new forum format (i liked the old one much better, this would have gone directly under his post then, but some of the new bells and whistles are probably a plus if i can figure them out :-)

no, i don't buy into the multiverse concept

i'm familiar with it along with, m-branes, string fantasy, etc

just no support for any of it yet

the universe is all there is (material)...and it was all made for us

we are the reason, that the universe was created and continues to exist (by his power, but for us)

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#13376 - 06/25/06 01:46 AM Re: genisis is NOT possible
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
yes, she did bring out a lot of thing for us.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#13377 - 06/25/06 11:44 PM Re: genisis is NOT possible
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Hi anyman:
Never mind me. I should have continued dozing.
jjw

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#13378 - 07/26/06 09:43 AM Re: genisis is NOT possible
Aireal Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/28/06
Posts: 30
Loc: Mayfield, Kentucky
Something out of nothing

It works for the big bang theory. John Barrow, professor of astronomy at the University of Sussex in England. In The Origins of the Universe (1994), Barrow observes that the no-boundary condition of Hawking's quantum cosmology has become increasingly attractive because it "avoids the necessity for . . . a cataclysmic beginning." Barrow thinks that the traditional Big Bang picture, with its initial singularity of infinite density "is, strictly speaking, . . . creation out of absolutely nothing."(31)

Genesis in the bible makes as much sense as the big bang does, perhaps more. A close look at the big bang theory will show that it is almost impossible without a "God" to tweak the chances in favor of a universe with life.

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#13379 - 07/26/06 09:46 PM Re: genisis is NOT possible
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:
Originally posted by Aireal:

Genesis in the bible makes as much sense as the big bang does, perhaps more. A close look at the big bang theory will show that it is almost impossible without a "God" to tweak the chances in favor of a universe with life.
Genesis only makes sense if you believe in magic. Not knowing the origin of the universe is no reason to assume some magic sky-daddy was responsible.

As one scientist put it, all the blather about how the universe/earth, or what have you, being perfectly tuned for life is like a puddle remarking on how the depression in which it sits was perfectly tuned for it.
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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#13380 - 07/26/06 09:51 PM Re: genisis is NOT possible
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Aireal if John Barrow wrote that he is either very ill-informed or a fool.

There is nothing about the big bang with inflation that equates with creating something from nothing. What there is is a change in the space-time metric.

How much space does all of the matter in the universe actually require? None. There is no theory of which I am aware that requires space to have matter.
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DA Morgan

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