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#13341 03/13/06 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
But to get back on topic ... you would fit in really well in an American red-state which from my perspective you should find quite insulting. ;-) Yep you'd make a right regular American with attitudes such as yours. I thought the British education system more capable.
There are degrees of redness. I live in a very red state right now, but will be moving to a less red one, soon. I don't think Blacknad would like the very reddest states. My fellow citizens of South Carolina would prefer to wallow in their own excrement than pay taxes that might benefit a person of the wrong color.


When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis
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#13342 03/14/06 12:06 AM
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Dan, I'll mail my mobile number to your University email address. Give me a bell when you get into the country and we'll arrange to meet up.

And I wouldn't dream of making you drink that stuff we call beer. Name your poison and I'll happily get the round in.

Soilguy, thanks for the small vote of confidence. I consider myself to be very liberal and this is totally consistent with Christ's teaching. We don't live in the same type of world to the one the old testament decrees were made in. It is very clear that Christ ushered in an age of grace where mercy is to be a prime characteristic of the religious. When the church has deviated from this they deviate from him. DA forgets that I dislike organized religion as much as he does, if not more, because I end up getting painted with the same brush.

To say I would ever harm anyone indulging in occult practices completely misrepresents me.

I am commanded to do no less than extend grace to all people regardless of behaviour, sexual orientation, creed or race - I take this seriously.

I would be lynched for blasphemy in one of your red states.

Blacknad.

#13343 03/14/06 03:54 AM
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Blacknad wrote:
"It is very clear that Christ ushered in an age of grace where mercy is to be a prime characteristic of the religious."

I thought you lived in Britain not on another planet. When you look around this place ... Africa for example (Libya? Egypt? Nigeria? Sierra Leone? Ethiopia? Zimbabwe?) ou seen grace and mercy? Oh but that is Africa. How about Asia then? Laos? Myanmar? No that's Asia. Perhaps you mean in Latin America ... Guatemala? Columbia? No that's not where you live. Central Asia then perhaps? all of the stans like Pakistan? Afghanistan? No those won't do. How about further west the grace and mercy that is Iran? Iraq? Syria? Lebanon? No those won't do. What you mean is The US (and I don't see either grace or mercy), Canada ... Ok but then it has always been a decent place ... Western Europe? Well only if you ignore everything that happened before 1945 and everything happening in the Basque country and everything happening in Northern Ireland and everything that happened last fall in France and .... What planet do you live on again Blacknad? Grace and mercy my ....

Blacknad wrote:
"To say I would ever harm anyone indulging in occult practices completely misrepresents me."

Ok then represent yourself. What would you do if god, or one of his self-annointed representatives on earth told you to kill the infidel?

Now that you've indicated that there is a line that you won't cross for your god ... where is that line?


DA Morgan
#13344 03/14/06 03:53 PM
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Does DA stand for Devil's Advocate? wink


~Justine~
#13345 03/14/06 05:10 PM
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Actually first initial of first name, first initial of middle name. But I like it. Thanks.


DA Morgan
#13346 03/14/06 06:50 PM
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Welcome, thought you would.


~Justine~
#13347 03/14/06 08:52 PM
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And it is true ... the devil could use a good advocate. He keeps getting called names by people who claim to be righteous ... and clearly are not.

I've no doubt that the so-called disagreement between a "god" and the "devil" is precisely the same as that between Catholic and Protestant, Cain and Abel, Shiite and Suni, Hutu and Tutsi. The closer they are to being the same ... the more they claim the other guy is the bad one. Look at the right-wing fanatic Christian zealots going after the right-wing fanatic Islamic zealots. I can't tell the apart. And if they switched clothes neither could anyone else.

If one looks at all of the evil perpetrated on this planet by the worshipers of god. And puts it on a scale weighing it against all of the evil perpetrated by worshipers of satan. There can be no doubt, in a rational mind, who is the source of the most wickedness and evil. In fact one might premably give one brownie point to the devil for not being a hyporite and a liar.


DA Morgan
#13348 03/15/06 03:42 AM
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"If you examine the atrocities perpetrated by atheists, you find that they have killed more people in the last century than all of the crimes of 2000 years of "church" history combined. Joseph Stalin killed 20 million Soviet citizens between 1929 and 1939 because they were not politically correct. Mao Tse-tung killed 34 to 62 million Chinese during the Chinese civil war of the 1930s and 1940s. Pol Pot, the leader of the Marxist regime in Cambodia, Kampuchea, in the 1970's killed 1.7 million of his own people. In fact, the Pol Pot regime specifically preached atheism and sought to exterminate all religious expression in Cambodia. This last example of atheist-led atrocities by itself resulted in the deaths of more people than those who were killed by 2000 years of "Christian" atrocities."

"Should atheism be blamed for the atrocities of a few prominent atheists?"

- No, of course not. But despite the fact that there are presently about 2 billion Christians, most of whom quietly go about their business trying to live a good life, you seem to think you can paint us as insane, blood-thirsty savages. Sorry, but it doesn't stack up. Despite the periods you point to where the Church has disgraced itself, Christianity is overwhelmingly peaceful and positive.

Sorry that you have more than your fair share of ignorant religious nutters in America, but don't let that blind you to the real picture.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt and agreeing that the religious are more likely to commit atrocities - do you really think that if there was no religion people wouldn't find other excuses to war with each other? Land, resources, ideology, race - take your pick.

Blacknad.

#13349 03/15/06 04:12 AM
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Blacknad wrote:
"It is very clear that Christ ushered in an age of grace where mercy is to be a prime characteristic of the religious."

Dan replied:
?I thought you lived in Britain not on another planet. When you look around this place ... Africa for example (Libya? Egypt? Nigeria? Sierra Leone? Ethiopia? Zimbabwe?) ou seen grace and mercy? Oh but that is Africa. How about Asia then? Laos? Myanmar? No that's Asia. Perhaps you mean in Latin America ... Guatemala? Columbia? No that's not where you live. Central Asia then perhaps? all of the stans like Pakistan? Afghanistan? No those won't do. How about further west the grace and mercy that is Iran? Iraq? Syria? Lebanon? No those won't do. What you mean is The US (and I don't see either grace or mercy), Canada ... Ok but then it has always been a decent place ... Western Europe? Well only if you ignore everything that happened before 1945 and everything happening in the Basque country and everything happening in Northern Ireland and everything that happened last fall in France and .... What planet do you live on again Blacknad? Grace and mercy my ....?

REP: I was specifically talking about Christianity. Because people enlist Christ on their side, time and time again, whilst they commit damnable acts does not have any impact whatsoever on the veracity or good sense of his teachings.

You would not allow me to damn atheism because of all of the secular wars that have been fought. The same applies to Christ ? if people choose to ignore the basis of his message to ?love one another? ? ?love your enemies? ? ?serve one another as I have served you? ? ?go the extra mile for your neighbour? ? ?forgive others unconditionally? and let?s not forget about the good Samaritan, a man who went out of his way and paid from his own pocket to look after a wounded enemy.

It is not contestable ? the message of Christianity is one of mercy and grace to all, and the vast majority of the two billion people who call themselves Christians today devote themselves to displaying those characteristics in their lives.

Blacknad.

#13350 03/15/06 12:22 PM
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Blacknad wrote:
"Joseph Stalin killed 20 million Soviet citizens between 1929 and 1939 because they were not politically correct"

Well I never thought I'd see the day when I defended Joseph Stalin ... and I'm not doing so today either. But what you've written is nonsense. Lets expose why.

Blacknad wrote:
"Should atheism be blamed for the atrocities of a few prominent atheists?"

Good try but it falls flat on its face. My statement said nothing about atheists. I said and I quote:

"If one looks at all of the evil perpetrated on this planet by the worshipers of god. And puts it on a scale weighing it against all of the evil perpetrated by worshipers of satan."

Do you see the word "atheist" in there? If so please point it out to me.

But attacking atheists is a cheap shot. Atheism is NOT a religion. It makes no claims. It does not claim to be good, or kind, or loving, or acting at the direction of any superior being.

Your statement is, at best, misdirection. The target is over there ... on our right.

Blacknad wrote:
"you seem to think you can paint us as insane, blood-thirsty savages."

I do not. My statement is that more than 1,750 years of insane blood-thirsty acts have been committed by self-identified Christians with the active support of Christian churches and theologians in the last 2000 years. And you really don't want to debate that point with me as you will not prevail.

Blacknad asks:
"do you really think that if there was no religion people wouldn't find other excuses to war with each other?"

No I expect humans would keep right on doing precisely what they've been doing with no difference whatsoever. That they would substitute nationalism or some other "ism" for their religion to justify their attrocities. And then I'd attack those isms. The one difference that would take place though is the end of a gross hypocrisy: That god supports the good guys: us.


DA Morgan
#13351 03/15/06 12:47 PM
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Blacknad wrote:
"Because people enlist Christ on their side, time and time again, whilst they commit damnable acts does not have any impact whatsoever on the veracity or good sense of his teachings."

Wait a minute. If the teachings are ignored they are worthless. If the teachings have not noticeably changed the world for the better they are worthless.

Surely god, the creator of the universe is smart enough to figure out how to effectively communicate with us. Give me a cattle prod and I guarantee you I could communicate clearly and unambiguously with any person on the planet. Are you saying your god is less powerful than a cattle prod? It appears so.

Blacknad wrote:
"You would not allow me to damn atheism because of all of the secular wars that have been fought."

Sure I would: Go for it. But you'll not find any ordained atheists with degrees in atheism justifying the attrocities. Want to weigh the War of the Roses against Korea? Have at it.

Blacknad wrote:
"It is not contestable ? the message of Christianity is one of mercy and grace to all,"

I'll stipulate to that. Great. You've got a good message. Maybe even a great campaign slogan. Now walk outside and observe what those Christians are actually doing. Look at the reality.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/default.stm

The world is exactly the same as it would be if all of the Christians and their message became Jews, or Buddhists, or atheists, or Liberals, or Austrians.

Christianity is not the probem. It is equally not part of the solution. It is just an excuse for good people to do nothing and to absolve themselves of any sense of responsibility.


DA Morgan
#13352 03/16/06 12:17 AM
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Something out of nothing? Even the Bible says that something was before creation. If you look at Genesis 1:1 the earth was "Void and without Form" which is directly translated from hebrew as "ruin and desolation" meaning the earth was before "creation" according to the Bible.

If there is something from nothing then there could be NO GOD. Because even the idea of God is something.

If the God of the Bible is Real, then his commandments should be followed.
Matthew 6:33 (kjv) "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His Rightiousness."
If you refuse to seek, you never know if you got it right or wrong until...whatever.
On a purely scientific level. Looking at the chemistry of some solution, all the atoms you put into the substance are accounted for no matter how they are arranged.

I think to much I think.
rlb60123

#13353 03/16/06 12:35 AM
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Dear DA

You say: "I'll stipulate to that. Great. You've got a good message. Maybe even a great campaign slogan. Now walk outside and observe what those Christians are actually doing. Look at the reality."

What are you angry at this time? Perhaps you should try understanding Christianity instead of boldly stating that "christians" do.

"My statement is that more than 1,750 years of insane blood-thirsty acts have been committed by self-identified Christians with the active support of Christian churches and theologians in the last 2000 years. And you really don't want to debate that point with me as you will not prevail."

John Huss was a Christian killed by "christians". If you, perhaps, took some time to look, you would find quite a few Christians who were killed by "christians".

I think to much I think.
rlb60123

#13354 03/19/06 01:16 AM
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DA attacks Christians while defending atheists as follows:

DA: ?But attacking atheists is a cheap shot. Atheism is NOT a religion. It makes no claims. It does not claim to be good, or kind, or loving, or acting at the direction of any superior being.?

I see the superior being in this comparison as the atheist. If he is not hypocritical and Christians are then he is ?superior?. If Christians claim to be good by comparison to atheists and are not then atheists are following a superior belief. How can these views be argued without the obvious conviction that atheists claim to be, do CLAIM (by some), their own superior being, namely themselves. The discussion that puts down one view automatically desires to inflate the opposite view. Atheists are good!

#13355 03/19/06 04:36 AM
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rlb wrote:
"What are you angry at this time? Perhaps you should try understanding Christianity instead of boldly stating that "christians" do."

What makes you think I don't understand Christianity better than you do? The fact that I think it, as did the founding fathers of my country:

"most bloody religion that ever existed."
~ President Samuel Adams


DA Morgan
#13356 03/19/06 06:33 AM
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DA,

Have you read any of the works of Anton Lavey, mainly the beginnings of the Satanic Bible? He states exactly what you do about the devil honestly representing himself, but I AM WAY off topic.

Blacknad,

In your desire to defend your beliefs you and my mother a German Catholic have the same arguments. My mother states, look at what the nuns have done and all the good works etc. that people have done to couter my arguments about the hypocrisy and evil of organized religions. What both of you fail to do is realize that people like DA and I are not stating that the message of Christ is wrong (if I am assuming too much DA let me know). The problems we have is with the human ability to corrupt that message.

All religions have the power to motivate people to do great good or great evil. What I see is that more often then not when it comes to the grander scheme of effects on nations, history and societies in general; religion has been a hindrance not a help. I could list all the examples that we have given here already and more but the reality of the situation is this. Any belief system which encourages it's followers to believe that their god, morality or way of life is the divinely chosen one has already taken the long step down the road of inevitable corruption and destruction of innocents whose only crime is that they do not believe the same thing. All -isms whether it is nationalism or any other of the long list leads people into the same trap. This is why I am not passionately loyal to my country as I see it simply as a piece of land which I currently reside in or my religious beliefs which I feel should be my own and I should not have to deal with other's telling my I am going to hell because I think differently than they do.

Religion, all religions are just another way for humans to divide themselves into comforming cliques and decide who is not one of the "in" crowd.

#13357 03/19/06 07:08 AM
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Your presumptions are correct Lillith. I have no problem with Jesus Christ and his message. Just with the evil done in his name. With the grossest of hypocrisies committed under the cloak of this or that quotation from scripture twisted on the rack to conform with a preconceived prejudice.

What rlb and others don't understand is that the only reason this discussion is about Christianity is that they are incapable of thinking past their own personal mindset. Were one of them a Jew I would apply my knowledge of their religion to point out why and how it fails the test of reality. Same would go for Hinduism, Islam, Satanism, Voodoo, animism, nationalism, cronyism, communism, etc.

Mine is not a dislike or hatred of their specific religion but of all modes of human thinking that are manipulative nonsense and which are passed on by brain-washing children and those with personal weaknesses.

jjw004 ... I don't defend atheists and I don't attack Christians: Just lies and hypocrisy. When I catch an atheist spouting mumbo-jumbo and woo-woo nonsense I jump on them with both feet too. I am an equal opportunity warrior against wilfull ignorance.

And for those who are too young to know them. Here are some lyrics to brighten your day.

With God On Our Side

My name it means nothing, my age it means less.
And the country I come from is called the Midwest.
Was brought up there and taught there the law to abide,
And that the land that I live in has God on its side.

Oh the history books tell it, they tell it so well.
The cavalries charged, the Indians fell.
The cavalries charged, the Indians died.
Oh the country was young with God on its side.

The Spanish American War had its day.
And the Civil War too was soon laid away.
And the names of the heroes I was taught to memorize.
With their guns in their hands and God on their sides.

World War I, it came and it went.
The reason for fighting, I never did get.
But I learned to accept it and accept it with pride.
For you don't count the dead when God's on your side.

When the second World War, boys, it came to an end,
We forgave the Germans, and called them our friends.
Though they killed six million, in the ovens they fried.
The Germans now too have God on their side.

Oh, I learned to hate Russians all through my whole life.
If another war starts, it's them we must fight.
To hate them and fear them to run and to hide,
And accept it all bravely with God on our side.

And now we got weapons of the chemical dust.
If fire them we're forced to, then fire them we must.
One push of the button, we'd shock the world wide.
And you never ask questions when God's on your side.

For many long years I've thought about this.
That Jesus Christ was betrayed by a kiss.
I can't think for you, you've got to decide,
Whether Judas Iscariot had God on his side.

So now as I'm leaving, I'm weary as hell.
The confusion I'm feeling no tongue can tell.
The words fill my head, and they fall to the floor,
If God is on our side, he'll stop the next war.
~ Bob Dylan

And my thoughts exactly


DA Morgan
#13358 03/23/06 05:04 AM
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"When I catch an atheist spouting mumbo-jumbo and woo-woo nonsense I jump on them with both feet too. I am an equal opportunity warrior against wilfull ignorance."

Well seeing what statements I made in the other posts on this forum, I am expecting a full on pummeling.

smile

#13359 03/23/06 05:44 PM
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I do recall hitting a bit hard on some new-age stuff a few weeks back.


DA Morgan
#13360 04/03/06 02:49 AM
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DA I enjoyed your poem.

It sems to me to be telling us about people, weak people, that want to thing they have a god on their side to justify their errors. You want to interpret "we had god on our side" as some kind of confirmation that a god had a hand in the horrors. There is a word I learned to discribe this style of argument but it escapes me at the moment. Is it sofestry or some such?

Factual thought demonstrate that if it is not posible to prove the existence of a god it is equally impossible to prove he/she has done anythin, good or bad.
Does not that fit your basic premise?
jjw

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