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#13076 - 10/09/05 10:53 PM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Please provide references to any version of any bible or serious science book that says:

1. The earth was a circle
2. Scientists considered the earth to be flat
3. That the Big Bang included light (it did not) thus falsifying your preposterous statement about "let there be light."
4. That there are dinosaurs mentioned in the bible

You are among the brain-washed many that are incapable of critical thinking. If you truly believe what you wrote back it up with citations.

As I know you can not I will ask you to explain to us the following from your authorless book just because, like your god, I like stupid people so much:

"Genesis 19

5. And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to
thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7. And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly,

8. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof."


Your god thinks a good man will give his virgin daughters to a mob to be raped and brutalized. Do you?

Simple question. I think we deserve a simple yes or no answer.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#13077 - 10/10/05 04:20 AM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
A new challenge:
DA Morgan:

As I know you can not I will ask you to explain to us the following from your authorless book just because, like your god, I like stupid people so much:

"Genesis 19
5. And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, where are the men who came in to
thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7. And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly,
8. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof."

Your god thinks a good man will give his virgin daughters to a mob to be raped and brutalized. Do you?

Simple question. I think we deserve a simple yes or no answer.
--------------------
DA Morgan

Rep:
I lost track was it Ric or someone else that felt the need to bring religion into the fray again. My thought is that neither the perpetrators nor the perpetuators know the Bible. I can say with authority that I do not know the Bible but I know that being in general parlance a woman being screwed was considered less fearsome than for a man to be sodomized. You add the rape and the brutalized, possibly true, but the point may be that sex with a woman, albeit a virgin, was deemed then to be more acceptable (than it is now?).

We should compare some timeline concepts. In China, during famine, it was common practice to put female children out in the snow, deadly cold, so they would not draw upon the meager food supply. Much earlier and later (later we prove) it was not uncommon to sell you excess female children into slavery (they might get screwed as well). The Bible reflects such concepts and while we may not agree with them we must acknowledge that such (now) strange conduct was universal in this world society.

Now, how about the Big Bang and let their be light. I don?t think there was a Big Bang and I don?t think you will give a damn what I think but Fact has it that the inner areas of the Solar System have terrestrial planets because our Bang caused all the extra gas and stuff to be blown out to the larger objects. So, why would there be no light as a part of the Big Bang of your Universe. Was it all dark matter, Uncle al. per recent post, would not be inclined to that- says it?s a gone idea. Was there no ignition as part of the BB. I like to think of it as a Big BM. Possibly due to an overdose of laxaderma.

This kind of reply is not my style and I will say up front it is a lot of fun so you will understand why I did it and why I know you all do it. jw

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#13078 - 10/10/05 05:49 AM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
Socalsum41fan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 2
The bible teaches us to love God and everything he creates with our hearts and our minds. He wants us to use our reasoning. So why would God create a universe which could not be explained through reasoning? God made us to be creatures of reason and if he didnt make our world scientific and reasonable man would eventually go crazy for the answer(some might say we are anyways)

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#13079 - 10/10/05 05:56 AM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
Socalsum41fan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 2
http://www1.cac.washington.edu/alumni/columns/march96/universe1.html

"One would think that if someone has trouble reconciling religion with physics, they would like the big bang. It has beautiful elements of ultimate mystery." Margon (sorry dont know the first name)

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#13080 - 10/10/05 01:50 PM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
Johan Offline
Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 35
Loc: Norway
Albert Einstein said "Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind."

Smart guy, but maybe not THAT smart.

He also said "If my theory of relativity is proven successful, Germany will claim me as a German and France will declare that I am a citizen of the world. Should my theory prove untrue, France will say that I am a German and Germany will declare that I am a Jew."

Check out http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Einstein.html for more on the genious and http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Quotations/Einstein.html for more quotes!
_________________________
Johan VS

-Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a raindance.

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#13081 - 10/10/05 02:51 PM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
Blacknad,
You and I have very different views; for example, I do not think you would describe atrocities, love, trust and basically everything a living thing can perform or experience as a mere product of ?neurons firing because of stimuli?.
(Please correct me if I?m wrong.)

You said; ?science deals with the practical issues of living in and exploring this universe and everything within it, including ourselves. Religion asks whether there is anything existing outside the boundaries of our natural experience and whether that something could or does interact in any way with us.?

I disagree. The definition for science is the study of natural and physical phenomena. Therefore, if there were anything existing outside the boundaries of our natural experience it would still, despite it?s complexity and greatness, be a natural phenomena and would undoubtedly be explained by science. Science is basically the study of how everything works. With that in mind, there is nothing that exists outside the realm of science.

As for what you said about religion intersecting with science, that is only 1 branch of science.

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#13082 - 10/10/05 08:18 PM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
Philege Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/30/04
Posts: 184
Loc: United Kingdom
To DA Morgan

So you think my God and I are stupid, and you I suppose are highly intelligent. Very well I will quote the scriptures to support my statement. By the way, it was NOT GOD WHO OFFERED THE VIRGIN DAUGHTERS BUT LOT for the sake of the two visitors who were ofcourse angels. God would not have permitted him to give his daughters just like he prevented Abraham from sacrificing his son. Beware of mocking God, there is a limit to the extent a human can go when playing around with God. I can certainly vouch for that. It would not take much effort from God to reduce one to a blabbering idiot like what happened to Nebuchadnezzar Daniel 4:31-37

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#13083 - 10/10/05 10:01 PM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Rob,

It is good to hear your sensible measured tones after dealing with the bluster of Daniel Morgan.

You said:

I do not think you would describe atrocities, love, trust and basically everything a living thing can perform or experience as a mere product of ?neurons firing because of stimuli?.

REP: I am not sure if I got the gist of your question, but if I got it right I would answer by saying that I subscribe to the following belief:

1. Without a creator to inject something else into the process, I think that is exactly what they are ? everything a human does is a mere product of ?neurons firing because of stimuli? ? I do not believe there is free-will, but everything is pre-determined, and has stayed on the same inexorable course since that first moment when the universe came into being. What is more ? without a belief in a creator that makes sense of it all ? I have a nihilistic belief that it is complete lunacy to say that life or existence has any meaning. It is meaningless, purposeless, there is no goal, it is utterly absurd, there is no right or wrong and there is even no truth, because the whole concept is meaningless.

Someone said on this site, either Uncle Al or DA Morgan (I think) -

My only purpose is to convert oxygen into carbon dioxide, and the longer I can do that the better.

Well the question must be ? why the longer the better ? why at all?

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#13084 - 10/10/05 10:01 PM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
jjw04 wrote:
"My thought is that neither the perpetrators nor the perpetuators know the Bible."

I don't think the issue is "knowing the Bible" as for everyone that claims to "know" it I can find a limitless number of people that will debate it with them.

The issue is knowing the English language, knowing Boolean logic, and being able to apply both without prejudice.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#13085 - 10/10/05 10:03 PM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Socalsum41fan wrote:
"One would think that if someone has trouble reconciling religion with physics, they would like the big bang. It has beautiful elements of ultimate mystery." Margon (sorry dont know the first name)

Bruce Margon. He teaches here at the Univeristy of Washington.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#13086 - 10/10/05 10:09 PM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Philege wrote:
"So you think my God and I are stupid, and you I suppose are highly intelligent. Very well I will quote the scriptures to support my statement. By the way, it was NOT GOD WHO OFFERED THE VIRGIN DAUGHTERS BUT LOT for the sake of the two visitors who were ofcourse angels."

Actually I didn't think anything of you before you posted the above idiocy.

1. The visitors were not angels. The visitors were demanding that he bring them a man they were chasing so they could beat him or kill him.

2. You are correct that god didn't offer up the virgins to be raped. No not to dirty his hands directly. Keep reading the text. He praised Lot as "a good man."

Idiot? Know I don't actually believe you are an idiot. No doubt your IQ is higher than that. I do, however, think you are brainwashed and incapable of thinking for yourself.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#13087 - 10/10/05 10:20 PM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Philege,

I have debated with DA Morgan and have resisted responding to his very evident sarcasm, insult and lack of manners. At the most, I have accused him of bluster.

I would urge you to do the same.

It achieves nothing to deal with people in this way except give you a little short term pleasure for putting someone in their place.

And I would also suggest that warning someone of the dangers of mocking God is pointless if they have zero belief in God.

It's like me telling you that Santa Clause is going to bust you up if you say you don't believe in him.

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#13088 - 10/10/05 11:06 PM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
Gabriel Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 2
DA, you seem to bring up Genesis 19 a lot, and it's not really been answered by anyone.

To be as simple as possible; you've twisted the story into something it is not.

When a child does something well intentioned but ignorant, a good parent recognises and rewards the good intentions, then later chides the poor execution of them.

Lot shows obvious good intentions in welcoming the visitors into his home, and in trying to protect them, but then shows some rather bad morals in offering his daughter.

So it is quite reasonable to say that God, as a good parent, rewards Lot for his hospitality at least enough to spare him from destruction.


This aside from the obvious fact that we only see a brief snapshot of Lot's life here; and certainly not enough to decide whether he would class as a good man or not.

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#13089 - 10/11/05 01:18 PM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
Blacknad,
Have you ever heard of the conscience universe theory, which states that the universe and planets inhabited by living organisms are also living organisms?
(To me, this theory makes a lot of sense and that is another one of the reason why I don't believe in a creator.)

(The following may be highly scientifically inaccurate.)
If we were cells on a planet (which communicates with other planets via radio signals) many of us who produced those signals would have died, and they would be received by a later generation.
Life could then be said to exist in different levels invisible to us because they are either too large and going too slowly (universes) or too fast and small (particles of matter)
I will stop here because this is a philosophical theory and I don't want to annoy any scientists. That is a possible answer to your question on why life exists at all. Though, my personal theory is, there is no reason for it, it is just a natural occurrence like any other which, by coincidence produces life. In a nutshell, a human falling in love is about as impressive as an oxygen atom fusing with another oxygen atom.

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#13090 - 10/11/05 04:57 PM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
Anonymous
Unregistered


Rob,
Do you mean a "conscious" universe?

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#13091 - 10/11/05 07:38 PM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Hi Rob,

Yes, I have heard of it - Gaia and all.

I think they are anthropomorphic beliefs, something us theists are accused of also.

I suppose a very good definition of what constitutes life would be needed before we could say that a planet, with it's complex ecosystem, could be said to be a living organism.

However - either way - it is not a view I accept.


Sorry if I am a bit dense but I found the second part of your post a little obscure.

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#13092 - 10/12/05 02:47 AM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Gabriel:
Your nonsensical rationalization is not supported by any organized religion. Offering up one's virgin daughters for rape is not considered immoral in any civilized society. It is considered a felony.

Rose:
Given the intelligence invested in this discussion maybe it should be the "cous cous" universe. I am personally appalled that these people, with hardly any apparent formal education, are allowed access to keyboards.

Blacknad:
You are in no position to define life when you can't even define death.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#13093 - 10/12/05 09:06 AM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
Amaranth,
yes, I did mean conscious universe.
I guess my sub-conscious likes science as much as I do.

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#13094 - 10/12/05 09:18 AM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
Gabriel Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 2
DA, who said anything about organised religion?

I, as a Christian, am justifying my beliefs, I don't see that I need to find a link from the church of England to justify that.

And surely the laws which govern 'civilised society' are merely enforced morality.

Neither of the things you said really even disputed my argument.

But still, this could easily spin off into rather a long debate, and since I only have temporary access to this computer before the intelligence police come for me, I'll leave it here. (Excluding significant developments.)

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#13095 - 10/12/05 05:15 PM Re: GOD AND THE BIG BANG
Anonymous
Unregistered


Greetings and Peace to all. I was initially interested in the holographic universe topic which is why I chose to register here. Now I am quite amused with all the banter about the Big Bang being morphed into a religious justification extravaganza. Please forgive me for any mispellings as I tend to think content is more important than form. But I would like to add that what is happening to Earth as an organism is also happening to the organisms living on the earth, and perhaps on a universal scale, to outerspace. Change takes place until homeostasis is met. But that doesn't explain Boredom, does it?

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