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#12810 - 08/26/05 01:30 AM Re: Proof that God did not create life
Lompta Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/25/05
Posts: 3
Science is a network that bends inward on itself. It does not ground in the real world, for there are infinite assumptions that must be made. There are axioms that we must assume are true to know anything. Science is most certainly not the one true thing. Anything involving the idea of a god is another network entirely, and a similar one, albeit one that grounds in different places, follows different rules. Perhaps the latter is more primitive, but both are structures that don't quite touch the ground. You can't say one will fall at any minute without casting a questioning glance at the other.

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#12811 - 08/26/05 06:06 AM Re: Proof that God did not create life
Anonymous
Unregistered


DKV,
If you use a computer to perform art, which is the artist: the user or the computer? To further complicate, what is "art"? lol
Sincerely
REP:Speaking of Art and Artists.. i have my own reservations.A singer can not be called a good singer if he does not sound melodious without the Instruments.And when he sings well using his accessories then obviously the credit should go to the Machine as well.Singing has become a coordinated effort of Man and Machine...And the person who coordiantes the performance is the Actual Singer.

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#12812 - 08/26/05 01:15 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
finchbeak Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 50
Loc: m=ρd
Quote:
Originally posted by Lompta:
Science is a network that bends inward on itself. It does not ground in the real world, for there are infinite assumptions that must be made. There are axioms that we must assume are true to know anything. Science is most certainly not the one true thing. Anything involving the idea of a god is another network entirely, and a similar one, albeit one that grounds in different places, follows different rules. Perhaps the latter is more primitive, but both are structures that don't quite touch the ground. You can't say one will fall at any minute without casting a questioning glance at the other.
I disagree with this. Strongly.
Science, by design, is rooted firmly to the ground. It depends entirely on the observation of actual, independently reproducible events. Any theory not so grounded is invalid. Scientists work hard to eliminate all necessary assumptions; that practice is known as using Occam's razor.

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#12813 - 08/26/05 09:00 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Falliable wrote:
"1) The definition of god doesn't necessarily include the notion of perfection."

It does in a Judeo-Christian-Islamic world. Don't believe me? Go to any priest, rabbi, minister, whatever you wish and ask them whether their god is perfect. Whether their god has ever made a mistake. Google for more responses. But you'll find this prey typical: www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=228

Your argument that what we perceive as a mistake may have been part of the plan is nonsense on its face. Maybe god put up Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed as false prophets to fool us too. Stick around another 2000 years to find out the laugh was on us. As good an argument as the invisible purple rhinoceros.

j6p:
"One definition of death could be "change"

So by your definition you are dead. Not much point in responding to you, eh? When does a bacteria die? How about a plant?

Lompta:
"Science ... It does not ground in the real world"

You could not be further from the truth. Don't paint something you don't understand with your personal ignorance. Next time you go to a doctor with an infection, and he offers you an antibiotic, be sure to refuse it and tell him science is not grounded in the real world. And stop using electricity and your computer. They too are obviously not grounded in the real world.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12814 - 08/26/05 10:08 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
j6p Offline
Member

Registered: 07/08/05
Posts: 47
DA Morgan, I am very much alive but not all of me. I am changing. Some of my cells are dropping off aaaarrrrgggghhhhh dead dead dead noooooo.
Oh well there goes another one. And I'll betcha that darn dead cell changes too. Some of the molecular components will separate then the atoms will disengage and so on and so on.
Yep every thing changes.
I heard somewhere that as soon as we are born we begin our journey toward death. Hmmm, now where did I hear that. Oh that's right, I said it.
Gotta go my honey just put some dead stuff on the table - pasta. Mmmmm I likes pasta.

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#12815 - 08/27/05 02:22 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
finchbeak Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 50
Loc: m=ρd
j6p -
Death=change doesn't work well, in my opinion. Certainly, death is a subset of change, but it isn't equivalent with change.

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#12816 - 08/27/05 03:55 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
j6p Offline
Member

Registered: 07/08/05
Posts: 47
finchbeak, I understand but we all do what we have to do in order to deal with it. Whether it be fantasy or reality doesn't matter.
As I said I look at death as change.
You have to admit though, we (humans) have invented some stranger ways to deal with death.

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#12817 - 08/27/05 05:09 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
Marc P Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 6
Loc: Gatineau, Qu?bec, Canada
I haven't read all pages of this post, but as some have stated, proving that development of DNA or the Big Bang for that matter was an "all natural" process in no way proves or disproves the existence of a sentient superior being many call "God".

The old science vs religion thing is fine if you're either in the 1500s or are talking about very right wing groups.

Science and religion can mix together very well, unless you're a fanatic... in either one of the two camps!

Marc P.

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#12818 - 08/28/05 06:48 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Marc P wrote:
"Science and religion can mix together very well"

Actually they can't unless you are brain-washed or brain-dead: They are polar opposites.

Science assumes we are on a search for truth. Religion claims to be the sole source of truth.

In science we seek Boolean proof through the scientific method. The temperature at which ice melts is the same for Jews, Christians, Moslems, Buddhists, animists, etc. The absolute proof that religion is a crock was stated most eloquently by Stephen Roberts:
"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

And by our very own Uncle Al:
"Religion and science are orthogonal - they have
nothing in common and do not overlap in any way.
Religion is based upon faith and is destroyed by
empirical proof. Science is based upon empirical proof and is rendered inoperative by faith."

More than 1000 years ago:
"The world holds two classes of men - intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence."
-Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri (973-1057)

And by the most important source of wisdom:
"That's the kind of God you people talk about, a country bumpkin, a clumsy, bungling, brainless, conceited, uncouth hayseed. Good God, how much
reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of Creation? What in the world was running through that warped, evil, scatological mind of His when He robbed old people of the power to control their bowel movements?"
- Catch 22
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12819 - 08/29/05 03:00 AM Re: Proof that God did not create life
Marc P Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 6
Loc: Gatineau, Qu?bec, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Marc P wrote:
"Science and religion can mix together very well"

Actually they can't unless you are brain-washed or brain-dead: They are polar opposites.

Science assumes we are on a search for truth. Religion claims to be the sole source of truth.
- Catch 22
Wow, I though such narrow mindedness was only on the religious side. Guess I was wrong. People who say religion and science don't mix know neither very well. At their core, both are a search for the truth, empirical truth or theological truth. The only catch 22 is in your head.

Tenants of the concept of oposition between science and religion are either very conservative or right wing religious extremists or, on the other side of the spectrum, atheists who's knowledge of religion doesn't go much past what they learnt at Mrs Smith's Sunday school classes.

Marc P.

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#12820 - 08/29/05 04:29 AM Re: Proof that God did not create life
A Lurker Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 21
Loc: Florida
Marc P reveals himself as a manipulative and an ignorant person typical of that of a creationist. I?m referring to the cut and paste job:

?Science assumes we are on a search for truth. Religion claims to be the sole source of truth.
- Catch 22?

This was not an accurate quote from Dan M?s posting.

And later in his post: ?on the other side of the spectrum, atheists who's knowledge of religion doesn't go much past what they learnt at Mrs Smith's Sunday school classes?

Marc P clearly shows that he has now clue of what science, or the scientific method is. And again, typical for creationists, slams atheists? as that would have anything to do with the discussion. Marc P has no notion of what being an atheist is all about.

Marc P ? learn about these things. You come across as silly to put it mildly.

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#12821 - 08/29/05 02:14 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
1. The idea of "God" does not depend on what judeo-christians think about it.

2. "Your argument that what we perceive as a mistake may have been part of the plan is nonsense on its face."

It's an idiotic argument, but it's not nonsense. It's also something that can't be refuted with logic. Such examination is outside the purview of science.

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#12822 - 08/29/05 04:12 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
MarkP wrote:
"At their core, both are a search for the truth"

Find me, in any religious book, the statement that the priests of that religion, those that founded it, and the books upon which they rely, do NOT contain the truth but rather that they are on a search for truth. Find me just a single example from any mainstream religion.

And as Lurker points out ... aren't you capable of accurately copying a quote?

Falliable:

"God" of course does not depend on Judeo-Christian theology. So all Jews and Christians are wrong. Good that solves part of the problem. Does "God" depend on Islamic thinking? Keep on naming 'em.

So you believe in a "God" that makes mistakes. Good. I like that. So which is it? Your "God" isn't perfect? Or your "God" intentionally makes mistakes to fool us into believing he/she/it doesn't really exist?
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12823 - 08/29/05 05:26 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
Marc P Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 6
Loc: Gatineau, Qu?bec, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by A Lurker:
Marc P reveals himself as a manipulative and an ignorant person typical of that of a creationist.

Marc P has no notion of what being an atheist is all about.

Marc P ? learn about these things. You come across as silly to put it mildly.
Glad we're sticking to the issues and the science here!

Marc P.

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#12824 - 08/29/05 06:38 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
Marc P Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 6
Loc: Gatineau, Qu?bec, Canada
O.K. enough personal attacks. Let's stick to the issue at hand.

I find the idea bewildering that this or that discovery in Science proves or disproves the existence of God. I've studied theology for over 6 years (liberal Catholic university) and nowhere in my studies did a single professor draw an opposition between the Bible or the creation stories of Genesis and what science has so far learnt. Those stories were written by writers who wanted to express their faith in how the world came to be. They used the common knowledge available to them at that time. Many creation stories of different religions or civilizations written at the same time as the Genesis stories use much of the same imagery and concepts. If the same creation stories were to be written today, they would simply incorperate the knowledge available to us today about the visible world (emperical truth) and affirm their faith by saying that somehow, all this came to be through the will of a creator or "God". (Of course, I am aware that my theological view is tainted by my catholic/chrisitan faith/studies but from my limited knowledge of other religions, I don't think it's all that incompatible with the basic judeo-christian view.)

To say that religion is crap or unintelligent because the way the Bible relates creation has proven to be false (universe created in a few days, etc.) is to have, in my view anyway, a rather narrow concept of the Bible and christian faith. What is crap (or not true) is actually the "science" if we can call it that or more precisely the common cosmological knowledge, which prevailed at the time the Bible was written (Genesis anyway around 700BC).

As a liberal catholic believer I have no difficulty distinguishing between the empirical data contained in the Bible which is simply not true (because it is based on 3000 year old science), and the theological truth that simply states that somehow, this universe came to be because God wanted it. That is why I stated that I see no opposition between science and religion or, more precisely, faith and spirituality.

For the record, I'm about as far from a "creationist" as you can get. Although my master's degree is in theology, I have studied math and science at the university level and still read up on scientific subjects as much as possible.

Marc P.

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#12825 - 08/29/05 08:29 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Marc P wrote:
"Glad we're sticking to the issues and the science here!"

WE are ... just apologize for misquoting and move on. What you just did was attempt to point the finger away from your own error. And you've been caught.

Marp P wrote:
"I find the idea bewildering that this or that discovery in Science proves or disproves the existence of God. I've studied theology for over 6 years (liberal Catholic university) and nowhere in my studies did a single professor draw an opposition between the Bible or the creation stories of Genesis and what science has so far learnt."

How many Hail Mary's do you have to say, after 6 years in college, using the non-word 'learnt'?

That the priest's don't wish to point out that they are wrong should not surprise you: That is not what they are paid to do. They are not paid to help you find truth. They are not paid to acknowledge failures and failings. Bet they haven't spent a lot of time talking about the Catholic church's support of Nazi Germany either. Or the fact that they officially approved a South American rodent as a fish before they, Oops, decided Catholics no longer needed to eat fish on Friday. Or the fact that nearly 1/3 of all pope's have died by assassination.

I do not mean here is disparage your religion. You are entitled to your belief and I have respect for people that are truly trying to be good people. But you can not take an objective look at the history of your faith and believe its teachings. Even the version of the 10 Commandments you hold dear is different from that the Jews have. And given that (A) the Jews got it first and (B) it was written in their language ... you ought to be asking yourself what motivated your church to reword them. And did they get God's written permission to do so? Inquiring minds want to know.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12826 - 08/30/05 03:42 AM Re: Proof that God did not create life
Anonymous
Unregistered


I know it all is dangerous.
And those who know it dont say that.
Whether it comes from Science or Religion it is bad.
Both are saying the same.
Both must upgrade their thought process.
The struggle is taking place because the religions evolve more slowly than science.
I have already discussed the reasons behind the existence of multiple faiths.
Some religions are able to map their thought process to the obeserved reality in a consistent way and some still believe in you-are-wrong.

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#12827 - 08/30/05 07:13 AM Re: Proof that God did not create life
A Lurker Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 21
Loc: Florida
Something happened when posting this. If it double posted, ignore one of the postings....

Marc P,
I?m glad to hear that you are not a creationist. Maybe I was a tad harsh too soon calling you manipulative and ignorant. Your post, the one I responded to, had some of the typical creationist attributes. I?m referring to 3 issues in that post:

1.
The incorrect quote from Dan M?s message. I have seen so many out of context, or ?convenient? miss-quoting by creationists that it?s not funny anymore.

2.
And this: ?People who say religion and science don't mix know neither very well?. I?m sorry Marc P, but they just DO NOT MIX.
You said: ?At their core, both are a search for the truth, empirical truth or theological truth.?
The reason that they don?t mix ? ever - is that the METHOD itself of the search of the truth is so fundamentally different. Anyone that don?t grasp that difference, I guess can believe that science and religion mix ? but no, they don?t. There may be scientists who are religious. But if they mix religion with their work, they are not adhering to scientific methods. There is no way around this ? they do not mix.

3.
And also; the comment of how little religious knowledge atheists have. Oh, please.
This is just plain dumb. Why would an atheist not take interest in religious matters? Then again, why would an atheist care about religious matters just as, and I?m guessing here, a Muslim may not give a hoot about Catholic knowledge?

In reply to my post you said:
?Glad we're sticking to the issues and the science here!?

You seem to be the one who want to argue the non-scientific issue whether science and religion mix ? from a scientific perspective they do not ? ever. But you are of course free to think so.

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#12828 - 08/30/05 11:06 AM Re: Proof that God did not create life
Marc P Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 6
Loc: Gatineau, Qu?bec, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Marc P wrote:
How many Hail Mary's do you have to say, after 6 years in college, using the non-word 'learnt'?

That the priest's don't wish to point out that they are wrong should not surprise you. They are not paid to help you find truth. They are not paid to acknowledge failures and failings. Bet they haven't spent a lot of time talking about the Catholic church's support of Nazi Germany either....

I do not mean here is disparage your religion. You are entitled to your belief and I have respect for people that are truly trying to be good people. But you can not take an objective look at the history of your faith and believe its teachings. Even the version of the 10 Commandments you hold dear is different from that the Jews have. And given that (A) the Jews got it first and (B) it was written in their language ... you ought to be asking yourself what motivated your church to reword them. And did they get God's written permission to do so? Inquiring minds want to know.
My problem with spelling comes from the fact that English is not my mother tongue, not from Hail Mary's.

And actually, yes, the professors (not that many of them were priests, a lot of lay people, women..., I did say "liberal" catholic university), talked extensively about the failings of the catholic church, all the ones you mentioned and many more you didn't. The church ain't perfect, it doesn't need to be for me to live my faith. I agree with liberal theologians that the church can at times be wrong in some of it's teachings. I believe in the core message of the Gospel and the wisdom of most of the teachings of the church, not all. I did say "liberal" catholic.

One of the great theologians and spirituel minds of the 20th century, M. Zundel even went as far as saying that certain parts of scripture do not reflect the mind / will of God, but rather the human limitations of the ones who wrote it. Contrary to what many believe, you can be think and have faith at the same time.

Some of my professors are the very scholars that have worked on the latest translation of the Bible and they have worked with Jewish scholars and you are wrong to say that the 10 Commandments contained in the Catholic version of the Bible is different from that of the Jewish Bible. They are the same. Certain books in the Catholic version of the Bible are not in the Jewish version but other than that, they are the same.

Marc P.

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#12829 - 08/30/05 11:42 AM Re: Proof that God did not create life
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
I believe in no god at all. I think I said that previously. If there were a god, it wouldn't have anything to do with my personal conception of it.
To quote you: "It's not rocket science."

Most people think that 1) logic is simple and 2) they're particularly good at it. Most of them are wrong on both counts.

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