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#12617 - 01/17/06 05:22 PM Re: Creationist advertisements??
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
We may be outnumbered, but it was encouraging to read Judge Jones' ruling on the Dover ID case. (If you haven't seen it, a PDF version is available here: http://www2.ncseweb.org/kvd/main_docs/kitzmiller_342.pdf)

Clearly, an intelligent layman can listen to both sides of this story and come to an intelligent decision.
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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#12618 - 01/17/06 11:43 PM Re: Creationist advertisements??
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Clearly. The most amazing thing about the story though was the fact that the self-righteous right-wing Christian fundamentalist wackos immediate tried to crucify the judge. And the judge was appointed by George W. Bush. Oops!

Justice has been redefined from something that is just ... to something that agrees with the philosphical idiocy of the most extremist fringe of the right-wing.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12619 - 01/18/06 03:07 PM Re: Creationist advertisements??
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Justice has been redefined from something that is just ... to something that agrees with the philosphical idiocy of the most extremist fringe of the right-wing.
Hey, I like that. I might save it for future use.

I currently live in one of the redder states. We have a boneheaded state senator who's introducing another [I]review of science education[I/] bill this year. Thankfully, his previous bills have all died in assorted committees, but he's tenacious. It's my hope that the Jones decision turns out to be potent ammunition.

Luckily, nothing ever happens in soil science that provokes The Guardians Of Morality to call for a laymen's review of theories and principles. I just hope no one commences a study on the feasibility of whether "the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground."
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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#12620 - 01/18/06 06:57 PM Re: Creationist advertisements??
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
I am continually amazed that it is my generation now running the planet, a group of spoiled boomers who spent their adolescence watching the civil rights movement, the Vietnam war, and doing more drugs and having more sex than all previous generations combined ... pretending they are something other than what they actually are. Just a bunch of hypocrites.

Who do they think they're kidding.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12621 - 01/19/06 03:26 PM Re: Creationist advertisements??
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
I agree Rob. The problem is that we are outnumbered. Always have been ... likely always will be.
I read an article, last night, comparing the catacombs the early few Christians met in with internet forums where modern Atheists now meet.
_________________________
~Justine~

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#12622 - 01/19/06 07:25 PM Re: Creationist advertisements??
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Modern Atheists? Huh?

Intelligent people have been meeting for millenia.


The world holds two classes of men - intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence.
~Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri (973-1057)

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eyes of Reason.
~ Benjamin Franklin in Poor Richard 1758


Faith is believing something you know ain't true.
~ Samuel Clemens writing as Mark Twain

Faith is an absolutely marvelous tool.
With faith there is no question too big for even the smallest mind.
~ Rev. Donald Morgan

Scriptures: the sacred books of our holy religion,
as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based.
~ Ambrose Bierce

Justine you may ask why it is that some of us find it so easy to reject the infalliable scripture upon which your religion is founded. Here's just one of many many examples:

At what time in the morning did the women visit the tomb? At the rising of the sun (Mark 16:2)
vs. when it was yet dark (John 20:1). So much for perfection.

Was the tomb opened or closed when they arrived? Open (Luke 24:2) vs. closed (Matt 8:1-2)

Whom did they see at the tomb? The angel (Matt. 28:2) vs. a young man (Mark 16:5) vs. two men (Luke 24:4) vs. two angels (John 20:11-12)

Were these men or angels inside or outside the tomb? Outside (Matt. 28.2) vs. inside (Mark 16:5, Luke 24:3-4, John 20:11-12)

Were they standing or sitting? Standing (Luke 24:4) vs. sitting (Matt. 28:2, Mark 16:5, John 20:12)

Did Mary Magdalene know Jesus when he first appeared to her? Yes, she did (Matt. 28:9) vs. no she did not (John 20:14).

If the stories were consistent, one could write one long, continuous narrative, incorporating all
four versions without fear of divergencies. Yet, this has never been done without adding, altering
or omitting key verses. Apologists often submit the witness-at-an-auto-accident argument, which
is quite irrelevant, since two diametrically opposed and mutually exclusive versions of the same event cannot be simultaneously accurate. One or the other is false. Moreover, witnesses at an
accident, unlike gospel writers, are not claiming inerrancy."
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12623 - 01/19/06 07:27 PM Re: Creationist advertisements??
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
Hey Morgan, where do you get all these great quotes from?

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#12624 - 01/20/06 07:25 PM Re: Creationist advertisements??
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
Is Christianity my religion DA? I seem to recall posting that I felt the Bible was as irrational as our superegos.

I thought I said I was Pantheist or Panentheist, but hadn't yet decided. (That really covers quite a bit of territory.)

I admire those of you who can so easily pin yourselves down. What a comfort for you. To put yourself in a box and put it away. Congratulations. Life must be a piece of cake after that.
_________________________
~Justine~

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#12625 - 01/20/06 07:29 PM Re: Creationist advertisements??
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
I keep a file of them for special occassions.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12626 - 01/21/06 03:01 PM Re: Creationist advertisements??
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
"I admire those of you who can so easily pin yourselves down. What a comfort for you. To put yourself in a box and put it away. Congratulations. Life must be a piece of cake after that."

Is this sarcasm?

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#12627 - 01/21/06 05:40 PM Re: Creationist advertisements??
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
It appears to be sarcasm but Justine appears to have taken at least two different sides here so I remain confused as to whether there is, or is not, an actual opinion. I was as sure she was a Unitarian Universalist from what she wrote as I am now convinced, or perhaps unconvinced that she is a "Pantheist or Panentheist" whatever that actual is intended to convey.

One thing for sure no matter the label. Humans can either believe in reality or fantasy just as they can either deal with reality or try to push it away with alcohol, marijuana, or heroin. From the number of people addicted to religion and alcohol it would appear that most people live lives of pain, insecurity, and fear.

I'd no more take away their churches than I would become a prohibitionist. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't point out hypocrisy when it rears its ugly head. Do what you wish but don't try to label it social drinking.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12628 - 01/23/06 05:51 PM Re: Creationist advertisements??
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
I'm not Unitarian, but I like them. I'm not Christian, but I love a lot of them. I'm really searching for the truth. I'm not Anti-Theist. Pointless existance doesn't feel like the truth to me. I may be Atheist but I'd rather be Panentheist.

There's the prime movement. I believe in that. The push of the Big Bang.

Some of the discussions from previous strings have lead me to the ideas that there could be one very ancient mind existing as innumerable perspectives in space. Existing as awareness and as particles.

Perhaps this group mind is evolving by relationships. That this mind is learning to be kind to itself (this includes taking care of the environment) so the mind or humanity as a whole can can live in peace and health and balance.

I'm hopeful for a world where science continues to find cures and methods of living in balance with nature to reduce human suffering. I'm hopeful that people will recognize their own worth and interdependence and really care about everyone on the planet. And really be very kind to the people closest to them as well.

And then the ancient mind would be mostly content, except for the occasional natural disaster (hopefully science will be able to predict and prevent overwhelming human tragedy) And suffering would be lessened to a smaller scale. Just enough to compare with the overwhelming contentment.

I'd very much like this Ancient Mind to not only be incarnated as all of reality, but also be a mysterious guide that works in incomprehensible ways to provide synchronicity, luck, omens and so forth to help those pieces of itself...individuals.... toward understanding the nature of it all.

These are my highest hopes, not quite beliefs. I would also like each individual perspective of this mind to remain an entity throughout lifetimes (reincarnation) I like the whole idea of reincarnation...but again I don't really know. I don't really know anything at all. I can only think about possibilities. And practice kindness.
_________________________
~Justine~

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#12629 - 01/24/06 12:45 AM Re: Creationist advertisements??
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Justine ... the lack of a sentient deity does not have an equals sign connecting it to pointless existance. That argument holds no water. And you are clearly intelligent enough to see past it. I can't think of an atheist I know leading a pointless life or scared of the lack of a hereafter. In fact from my experience atheists are more likely to make someting of their lives as they can't just say ... "well I didn't commit any horrible sins so I've a guaranteed place on cloud 9."

Neither does a prime movement equate with a sentient entity pushing a button or flipping a switch.

You need to consider that "if there is a mind" then malaria is a product of that mind. So is AIDS. So is leukemia. So is your every thought and feeling so you really don't count except as a taxpayer.

I'd suggest you reconsider that new-age nonsense as it is just another form of packaging the same tired concept that "you are not responsible", "someone else is pulling the levers", and "give us your devotion and money."

If you can't practice kindness without some higher being telling you to do so you should check into a clinic and ask for help dealing with your angst and hostility. Sorry if that is harsh but reality need not be warm, fuzzy, and cuddly.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12630 - 01/24/06 03:15 PM Re: Creationist advertisements??
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
You're right, I don't need a higher being to practice kindness. Kindness is the point...higher being or not. I think it is the point of the "thinking" self-aware mind...to be kind and stay within the delicate balance of nature by choice, not just instinct.

Enlightnment along side of kindness...reaching a point of knowing when being strict, blunt or even uninvolved is the kindest thing to do in order for someone else to learn to be kind and responsible themselves.

Kindness isn't just warm and fuzzy and cuddly. Not that I don't love the warm, cuddly parts.

I even find that you are mostly kind, DA. For all your bluntness, because your prime mission is to educate...and that is kind; not warm and cuddly.
_________________________
~Justine~

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#12631 - 01/24/06 08:23 PM Re: Creationist advertisements??
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Justine wrote:
"I think it is the point of the "thinking" self-aware mind...to be kind and stay within the delicate balance of nature by choice, not just instinct."

Only if you define "to be kind" as to create smallpox, create AIDS, create malaria ... and visit them upon the helpless. This is new-age nonsense parroted without use of the gray-stuff you have between your ears. Try saying something that comes from your own ability to think. It is mindless blather.

If you think there is a higher being then point to physical evidence of its existance. Explain where it come from. Explain how you know what you know about it. Apply some cognition.

If you can define Enlightenment by all means do so. Your enlightened scholar is my flagrant act of taking advantage of the hard of thinking. If you think there is a definition of the word that isn't fluff I'd like to hear it.

And yes I am being blunt and trying to educate. Because what I reading is all lacking in substance.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12632 - 01/26/06 04:33 PM Re: Creationist advertisements??
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
Alright let me section off perspectives because I can't take one definite side, right now, I'm just throwing ideas out here. I don't know the answers.

The first perspective is the idea that there is no God of any kind. There is only what we can observe. Alright, in this case I believe the enlightened mind is someone who is kind and realizes they are interrelated with everyone and everything on earth and chooses to fascilitate harmony. And humanity has to evolve to this point. We as a whole are very unkind, now. Is it crazy, to hope that we will evolve into something better than what we are, now?

==============================================

Ok, now a totaly seperate perspective a seperate discussion. Is there a seperate God. Where is the proof? You asked.
It is uncomprehensible to us. If it exists, it prefers to be anonymous. Why would it prefer to be anonymous? So we can learn through our experience of seperation from it in this reality.
===============================================
A third perspective WE are an evolving God. Maybe God doesn't come all put together...It has to make itself. So we've got billions of pieces to resonate together. Awareness is seperated and instinctually workes in harmony...but when the self-aware "thinking" mind was added, all these "individuals" have to evolve into realizing that we, all together, are GOD...not a perfect GOD at this point. We have to evolve or die. If we die. GOD is suspended until another planet somewhere developes thinking creatures that get a shot at becoming something wonderful.


=================================================

Hey, another perspective....Don't read this one DA...this one is for lurkers that may be interested.

We are an evolving God. But there is a portion of God that is fully perfected and just waits for all the individual pieces to come to the understanding that they, too are God. We are equal to everything that has awareness. Most people are walking around deluded that they are something other than the stuff of pure awareness because they spend too much time "thinking" about themselves.
The perfected parts of God work in reality through synchronicity, chance, intention, etc.
Humans continue to suffer because it is part of what we have to go through to give up the delusion of personal power and also to give up attachment. Attachment to other people, attachment to our own properties like health, skills, personality. When we give it all up and only recognize the power in interconnection and only identify ourselves with pure awareness or the identy we are when we aren't "thinking" then we are on our way to understanding who we are as a whole. And in reality is where we get to physically exist so we have to figure out how to live with each other and the environment or else we will always suffer. Parts of GOD are always suffering as long as anything suffers.
_________________________
~Justine~

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#12633 - 01/26/06 04:49 PM Re: Creationist advertisements??
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Section 1:
I'll go along with your definition of the enlightened mind. I would hope everyone would. But there is no universal or even majority defintion of that word or the definition you constructed. But to your definition I would add an understanding of Boolean logic, alegebra, and to discern spin from reality.

Section 2:
"Ok, now a totaly seperate perspective a seperate discussion. Is there a seperate God. Where is the proof? You asked.

It is uncomprehensible to us. If it exists, it prefers to be anonymous. Why would it prefer to be anonymous? So we can learn through our experience of seperation from it in this reality."

This is nonsense and you know it. To say "it prefers to be anonymous" is equivalent to saying "I haven't a single shred of evidence to support my belief system." Because you know darn well any half-way intelligent person is going to ask you how you know it prefers to be anonymous.

And thank you but we can learn through our experience without it existing so it is equivalent to the theoretical vacuum. If it exists it has no effect so it doesn't exist since no effect can be determined. That, Justine, is the definition of non-existence.

Section 3:
"We are an evolving god."

This is pure unadulterated fluff. We could just as easily be an evolving invisible purple rhinoceros. We aren't invisible yet but we are getting there. We aren't purple yet but a lot of us are already pink so we're getting there. Come on ... you can do better than this. This is just new-age nonsense.

We are what we are what we are. Period. Godlike? Come on now ... to say that we, collectively, are god, is just to spin-doctor the word. That is not what the word means and it is disingenuous to redefine the word to mean something completely different than it has meant throughout all of human history.

PS: Last time I checked the collective we did not invent smallpox.

Section 4:
Do you read what you write?

Here's what you wrote in 3: "A third perspective WE are an evolving God" and in 4: "Hey, another perspective ... We are an evolving God." Do you see a little problem here?

It is not just another repackaging of new-age spin doctoring and packaging ... it is the exact same words.

I once again challenge you to use your own brain rather than parroting what you've read.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12634 - 01/26/06 06:41 PM Re: Creationist advertisements??
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
The 4th perspective was like the 3rd except there was an amount of God already perfected with the rest of us on our way to perfection. It's along the lines of budhism. It's not meant for you.

What's wrong with parroting what I've read? That's what you do. You are like a textbook with an attitude.
_________________________
~Justine~

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#12635 - 01/26/06 11:41 PM Re: Creationist advertisements??
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
An amount of god? God ... the word as defined in the dictionary ... have you read it? If you want to use the word use it properly. You can not just grab a word with a specific meaning and redefine it as it suits you to mean something else. The word "God" is a noun and is defined pretty much as: "any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force." The Borg collective is not a supernatural being. Find another word.

What is wrong with parroting. I don't know ... what is wrong with being strung out on heroin? If you have a brain and choose to not use it how you get there pretty much doesn't matter does it.

The point is I am trying to have a conversation with a sentient being not a tape recorder. If I wanted the author's opinion I'd ask the author. If you, Justine, wish to converse with us then do us the courtesy of being Justine and not a mouthpiece.

Is there a collective? Is there a sentient god? Is there an invisible purple rhinoceros? The point is that if you are going to put forth the proposition that one of them exists then have some rational basis, some evidence, something verifiable, you can point to. I read it in a book is equivalent to I heard Paris Hilton say it.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12636 - 01/27/06 12:00 AM Re: Creationist advertisements??
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
This is for all the fools that can't allow themselves to not believe in a god or life after death:

Tell this god of yours that there are too many religions available for you to pick one because it may be the wrong one. Tell it, that you refuse to speak to it or pray to it because as a god who put you on earth to learn and strive to survive and improve society, asking for divine help kinda defeats the purpose of that intention. Tell it that it 'blessed' you with a mind that can evaluate evidence and tell it that you can't be blamed if in your life you never came upon any evidence. Ask it why you should improve society if you're gonna live in paradise anyway. Ask it why it always seems to reflect the society that worship it. Why is there no global society with a global god? What about aliens -what about the beliefs of aliens? Maybe they have found the right religion. Ask it how the heck wer'e supposed to know about this true religion? Ask it why people born into a life where killing and stealing is the only way to survive are condemned by no fault of their own to an eternity in hell. Ask it why children that go to private school and die at the age of 13 before commiting any 'sin' can go to heaven when other kids get shot whilst dealing drugs and go to hell for being killers. Ask it to explain chaos theory to you. And ask it how you have managed to become so stupid.

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