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#12522 - 12/27/05 04:50 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Justine,

Once again, I find myself defending Christianity - please note I only post in response to others - I am not actually here with an agenda to promote religion.

Christianity is not about power or politics. It is about laying down power to take up love and serving others needs instead. It is about a revolution in individual people's thought lives.

Sure you can focus on the points in history when the "church" has gained power and disgraced itself, by ignoring Christ's imploring to lay down power. This ignores the quiet revolution of millions of broken people down through history, renewed by an encounter with Christ - what we would call the remnant.

I have said before that I could judge science by the Atom Bomb, Vivisection and any other negative headline issue, but this would be to damn the endevour by it's sometime frail application. The same for Christianity. The foolish Christian Right who hate and think they have the right to judge others for being gay etc. when Christ urged them to deal with the log in their own eye before reaching for the speck in others. This is the application of Christianity you see and hear every day.

But this is not the many believers who quietly go about the business of trying to do good in their own community - being ready to have answers when asked about their hope, but not ramming their faith down people's throats. Why would you ever hear about these?

So yes, it is a disgrace when a large part ot the church becomes nothing more than a crowd who are caught up in polarised positions on gays, abortion etc. but the simple measuring stick is this: Are they in accord with Christ? and on these issues I know they are not and it is therefore questionable whether they are genuine (as you say) - when they so easily practice the politics of hate. Only God can know.

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#12523 - 12/27/05 07:07 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
The "foolish" Christian Right is not as foolish as you think. It's very powerful. This BEAST is an anomaly. And it's stolen your Christ.

What are genuine christians doing to take Christ back? How can you fight the fundamental christian right when they label themselves Christian just like you do?

Where are the organized liberal Christians?

How can liberals, progressives and genuinely compassionate conservatives regardless of our religious/non-religious beliefs take back America? We are endlessly diverse.
And the fundamentalists are able to use the umbrella of Christ to drag along so many Americans who don't actually share any values with them whatsoever. It's just a smokescreen.

What's the gameplan for America? Do we all turn green? Or can the greens and the democrats combine into one party? The demogreenocrats?
Can the genuine republicans seperate themselves from the fundamentalists? I think the BEAST uses the umbrella of "republican" as another smokescreen.

They are just GREEDY PEOPLE with two broad lables slapped on top to cover their true identity and enlist followers.
_________________________
~Justine~

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#12524 - 12/27/05 07:59 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
P.P.S. Please stop saying I misunderstand religion, don't forget, I WAS religious for over 10 years.

Rob, racking up years as a Christian means little - although I think it usually takes about 15 years for someone to really understand the first lesson - (It is about a relationship, not rules). But you can be a Christian for 60 years and still not understand what is at the core of it.

So when I say you don't understand it I mean: you show a lack of understanding about that which is fundamental to the gospels.

It is letting Christ go into your basement with his sledge hammer to fundamentally restructure your life. If you never allowed him in, then of course it would have become a fruitless, meaningless experience. He said 'I stand at the door and knock', there are many people who call themselves Christians but in fact Christ is still standing at their door knocking. I can call myself anything I like, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

You make incorrect statement after incorrect statement about religion and this tells me that your experience of Christianity wasn't authentic.


Regards,

Blacknad.

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#12525 - 12/31/05 04:06 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
I can see you are brain washed beyond repair. Please do not speak to me about how 'great' it is to believe in 'god'. Have you seen Cast Away? I think that's the name of the movie -the one with Tom Hanks on the island. All the Gods of the world are Wilson.

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#12526 - 01/01/06 01:36 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Rob - "Have you seen Cast Away? I think that's the name of the movie -the one with Tom Hanks on the island. All the Gods of the world are Wilson. "

REP: More crooked thinking.

IF: In a film, Tom Hanks was alone on an island and created a persona to talk with to try to help retain some sanity and to stave off loneliness.

THEN: God is also invented.

You might want to explain the rules of your neo-logic.

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#12527 - 01/01/06 05:26 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
IF: in reality, people feared death and the unknown and had a lot of problems and sometimes felt 'all alone' in the world, and hated loneliness, and were intelligent enough to think about how things started and early ignorant versions of them saw that THEY created THINGS and therefore assumed that everything was created, and saw that the belief in a creator made life easier, and had the ability to decieve themselves, and intelligent current versions of them saw that this belief also made people easier to manipulate and control, and knew how to brain-wash people...

THEN: Gods are invented and maintained

ELSE: We have a civilisation based on truth, better or worse, who cares? I hate lies.

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#12528 - 01/03/06 04:52 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
The world would be a better place, right now, if in the past, people HAD created God as a companion such as Wilson.
Especially, if people understood God as a companion to all other people as well.

Tom Hanks never worshiped Wilson. But he surely loved him and needed him, too. If he didn't externalize his companion, and he didn't externally talk with God, then Tom Hanks' character would have had to split his personality for companionship resulting in possible irreparble damage to his psyche.
_________________________
~Justine~

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#12529 - 01/06/06 07:04 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
You took my example too literally. I was just implying that people invented god to feel better about themselves and the big, mysterious, 'cruel' world.

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#12530 - 01/06/06 07:30 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
Yeah, I know. I got your point smile I was just building on it.
_________________________
~Justine~

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#12531 - 01/06/06 08:42 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
Ok -smiley. smile

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#12532 - 01/27/06 12:19 AM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
I just answered my own question. An every-man-for-himself world may not be that good. Thanks evolution.

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#12533 - 01/27/06 01:53 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
An "every-man-for-himself world" could be good or bad depending on whether the decisions were made with a knowledge of history ... and thus the consequences of the actions.

My vested self-interest is not to have my neighbor kill me in the night. Nor, if I kill him first, is it in my best interest to have many sleepness nights waiting for his family and friends to revenge my actions.

History teaches clearly that these are the consequences for bad acts whether those acts are selfish or generous in their origin.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12534 - 03/15/06 11:17 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
rlb60123 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 25
Dear TheFallibleFiend

Fiend said...
Evolution is not "anti-god." It doesn't say anything at all about god.

My answer...
Finally. Someone who actually read "Voyage of the Beagle" by Charles Darwin. Evolution doesn't erase God in my opinion, it Proves God.
Read "Time to God" a post from me.

I think to much I think.
rlb60123

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#12535 - 03/15/06 11:56 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
rlb60123 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 25
WOW, let us say that Atheists need to look for God more, and Theists need to burn their temples and start all over again.

If you Hate the Idea of having a Supreme intellect take account of the way you lived your life after your life is over, please raise your hand. Enough said. I think I will stick to trying to live my own life, and leave attaining the Knowledge of God to those who want IT. Shake the Dust from your shoes and move on, Believer, They Ain't Listening.

I think to much I think.
rlb60123

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#12536 - 03/28/06 09:37 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
Count Iblis II Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/21/05
Posts: 375
Quote:
Originally posted by Rob:
Many people who love science hate religion and the belief in a ?creator? and an afterlife. My question is: since nature always takes the path of least resistance, and therefore creates the best method to solving any problem, why did humans evolve to believe in God? What is the point in this belief? Is it responsible for the upkeep of natural balance? Or is it just a temporary flaw in human evolution that is being fixed.
It is my personal belief (and hope) that the whole world will one day be atheist and not believe in silly things like souls.

Do you agree that the world will evolve into an atheist one, or is this the way things are meant to be?
It is more probable to find yourself in a world where most people believe in God than in an atheistic world, see here why.

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#12537 - 03/29/06 12:31 AM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Count Iblis II asked:
"It is more probable to find yourself in a world where most people believe in God than in an atheistic world"

Seems like the ultimate case of painting the target after shooting the arrow.

We live here on planet earth.
The place is as it is.
Our heritage as Homo homo sapiens is what it is.
"Likely" has absolutely nothing to do with it.
You are dealing with a sample size of 1.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12538 - 03/29/06 01:32 AM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
Count Iblis II Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/21/05
Posts: 375
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Count Iblis II asked:
"It is more probable to find yourself in a world where most people believe in God than in an atheistic world"

Seems like the ultimate case of painting the target after shooting the arrow.

We live here on planet earth.
The place is as it is.
Our heritage as Homo homo sapiens is what it is.
"Likely" has absolutely nothing to do with it.
You are dealing with a sample size of 1.
We don't know what the sample size is. The most favored cosmological models are based on inflation theory which typically predict an infinite universe, listen here why.

So, the sample could very well be infinite. Of course, you only do one observation, but then ultimately everything is just one observation (at any given time all you know about the world is the knowledge stored in your brain at that very moment). What matters is the information contained in the observation.

In this case I'm assuming that I'm sampled from an infinite set of near exact copies. The conclusion that the typical observer should find himself living in a backward civilization then follows naturally.

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#12539 - 03/29/06 06:35 AM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Earth to Count Iblis ... Earth to Count Iblis.

You tried to change the subject: Oh and you failed!

Here's what I was responding to:
"It is more probable to find yourself in a world where most people believe in God than in an atheistic world"

Please look above and you will see it quoted in my posting.

What in the plum pudding with hard sauce has that got to do with "The most favored cosmological models are based on inflation theory?"

Want to try again?
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12540 - 03/29/06 12:43 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
Count Iblis II Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/21/05
Posts: 375
"It is more probable to find yourself in a world where most people believe in God than in an atheistic world" follows using some mild assumptions from Anthropic reasoning, which is controversial. But if the universe is indeed infinite and all physically possible states are realized physically then Anthropic reasoning is certainly correct.

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#12541 - 03/29/06 01:28 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Count Iblis II tries again with:
"But if the universe is indeed infinite and all physically possible states are realized physically then Anthropic reasoning is certainly correct."

"...More probable..." implicitly means there is a sampling of worlds.

Your sample size is precisely 1.

You have absolutely no information about any other world anywhere in this or any galaxy.

At best you are engaging in hyperbole.

Your argument is lying on the floor ... over in the corner. Sorry about stepping on it. It is far too late to call 911.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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