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#12422 - 10/19/05 04:42 PM would an atheist world be a better one?
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
Many people who love science hate religion and the belief in a ?creator? and an afterlife. My question is: since nature always takes the path of least resistance, and therefore creates the best method to solving any problem, why did humans evolve to believe in God? What is the point in this belief? Is it responsible for the upkeep of natural balance? Or is it just a temporary flaw in human evolution that is being fixed.
It is my personal belief (and hope) that the whole world will one day be atheist and not believe in silly things like souls.

Do you agree that the world will evolve into an atheist one, or is this the way things are meant to be?

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#12423 - 10/19/05 04:59 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
Uncle Al Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 540
Loc: Southern California
Humanity evolved because there was no Welfare Office. Stupidity was lethal. That is a good system - primary education to adulthood.

The world works when authority, responsibility, and liability are tightly coupled. Religion specifically imposes authority while denying responsiblity and utterly renouncing liability. Religion is an abusive disaster.

The US Founding Fathers were deists. They acknowledged an amorphous god on money and benignly stowed the rest of religion in churches hoping it would never get out. Their hopes have failed as has their country in turn.
_________________________
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http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
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http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz3.pdf

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#12424 - 10/19/05 07:31 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
Xennos Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Your Mind
Well I can see where this is going...

an atheist world would we a little less complex and more rational with out the billions of people interpreting the 2000+ year old scripts differently there would be less fighting over who is right and less nut cases in general, in the time before advanced science it was used to hold society together the explain the unexplainable in the modern world that has shifted in the sciences' favour with many of the religious beliefs disproved, people are unsure if to ditch their faith and live under the rules of science and maybe go to "hell" or to believe in faith and try to get into "heaven"
there is always that "what if" seriously from what ive read hell isnt the best place to be for eternity..

for me I, until it is explained how it all started (something a little more solid then the shotty big bang theory) and until we figure out Consciousness

ill believe that in fact it all was **Started** by some supreme being, as corney as that sounds . . but I'm not going to believe that we came from Adam and eve, I mean it has been proven time and time again that it just isn?t true
For me the books have been translated and rewritten to many times to be accurate any more, I would choose logic over a translated 2000 year old book.

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#12425 - 10/19/05 08:52 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
Philege Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/30/04
Posts: 184
Loc: United Kingdom
I find it funny that you consider atheism and the absence of a soul in humans? When you look at yourself, not the world just yourself, what do you see? Do you see something random and unorganized a pulsating lump of matter or do you see something perfectly designed, the billions of activities, reactions, chemical, electrical or otherwise. Do you see a head which contains a most marvelous biological machine that defies logic. What about dreams, imagination, thought, intelligence, they way we eat, piss and ****, so sytematic, so well designed, so mathematical, the calculations involved whenever we walk, talk, and reason. The marvel of the eye, a television created long before we could concieve it, the need for sleep so that our brains can process the information and store it. The digestive system, the renal system and the circulatory system. The entire body and its design can never be an unplanned thing. We were created, along with everything in the universe. It's a pity that our minds are so tiny that we make the mistake of not appreciating the wonder of our creation. No wonder mankind places no value in himself and the other creatures in this world and seeks day and night to destroy himself, because of these atheistic tendencies of thinking we evolved from a ball of ****. Concerning the bible, and such books, these are spiritually discerned. Closed minds can never understand the hidden message within those texts. I feel sorry for those who are atheist, for they are in for a surprise. Ask me why I believe in God and the 'soul' and I might tell you a thing or two which may change your point of view.

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#12426 - 10/19/05 09:20 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
Chris Maxwell Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 26
Loc: UK
I agree with philege It may be difficult for some of us to believe that we can really know God, yet it is true that we can. What does God look like? When we think of God, what kind of image comes to our mind's eye? Do we see God as some sort of superpower that hits us over the head with a big stick when we have been bad? Or does our image of God seem so ethereal that we cannot even imagine that, as humans, we could possibly see Him?

Perhaps we see God in the flowers, the birds, the blue sky, the tall pine trees and the mountains, and that is God to us. Some may even view Him as a kindly old man with a white beard and robe, sitting on a golden throne someplace out there called heaven. Maybe our position is that it is impossible to see God. but atheism is a load of bull S*IT.

Such men like charles darwin corporated you're minds with his anti - god theories. evolved from fish What F**king bull sh*T.

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#12427 - 10/19/05 09:26 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
Chris Maxwell Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 26
Loc: UK
"I apologize for the language smile "

As moderator I suggest you don't repeat it or your posts will be edited. Be considerate of your audience. You do not improve your arguement with profanity.

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#12428 - 10/19/05 11:40 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
"Such men like charles darwin corporated you're minds with his anti - god theories. evolved from fish What F**king bull sh*T."

Evolution is not "anti-god." It doesn't say anything at all about god.

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#12429 - 10/20/05 11:42 AM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
My question was a scientific one concerning the structure of society, all I have as a response is a bunch of deluded, weak-minded people preaching the greatness of 'God'. The moderators keep telling us to stop letting these things turn into philosophical debates. However, when atheists and theists are mixed, a debate is inevitable. We might as well continue (until someone answers the real question scientifically).

I'll start with you, Philege, you said; "Ask me why I believe in God and the 'soul' and I might tell you a thing or two which may change your point of view." Well now I'm asking you.

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#12430 - 10/20/05 10:07 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Rob asked:
"Why did humans evolve to believe in God? What is the point in this belief? Is it responsible for the upkeep of natural balance? Or is it just a temporary flaw in human evolution that is being fixed."

Humans evolved a believe in natural gods as a means of explaining the unexplainable. Go to a very remote part of the planet, find native tribes, and show them a piece of technology they can not possibly comprehend. Ask them to explain it and they will come up with an explantion. A working hypothesis. One they will stick with until it is proven invaluable or incorrect. Thus we started off with worship of sun, moon, forest, bears, etc.

The religions we see today, differ only slightly from those original religions. The difference is that politicians found it easier to control populations with a personification (god is good, devil is evil, heaven is good, hell is hellish).
So at about the time that humans moved from hunter-gather to agriculture the god(s) evolved to become more powerful control tools.

The quest of science is to replace those sun, as a god, with a superior explanation, that it is a hydrogen fusion furnace with a strong gravitational field that embraces our planet.

Never forget that the primary purpose of religion used to be explanation. As science has provided that explanation more and more religion has become nothing but a control mechanism designed to tell you what is right, what is wrong, where to spend your money, who to vote for, who you can and can not sleep with and when. The technique though has never changed: Brain washing of children.
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#12431 - 10/21/05 01:17 AM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Better than what?
Why do people believe I God?
Is God an important part of man kinds make up?

Try starting with fear which is an important part of man kinds make up.
Move to efforts to control that fear of today, tonight and tomorrow.
Think of a solution and create an all powerful image to give you courage,
Now think of ways to get that image to help you control your fears.
Create a program of homage, prayer, sacrifices, offerings and new fears.
You now have a God to fear as a substitute for the inherent fear of life.
The only difference is that the fear of your God is subject to bargaining.
The fears you had originally were of mysterious, misunderstood happenings.

Enter science and things are understood better so you have fewer things to fear.
You may still have many fears so you can hold on to God for bargaining.

A real atheist, if it is total, likes to think there is nothing mysterious to fear about life and rejects the prospect of a God or a superior being. You may interpret this as a form of complete self sufficiency but I do not see it quite that way. No one knows the origins of Matter or the origins of Matter that can create life. It is the initial issue of the starting point that we, as a minor life forms can never know or understand from within our makeup.

So what would life be if every one was an atheist? Pointless and boring.

Jim Wood

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#12432 - 10/21/05 03:18 AM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
"would an atheist world be a better one?'
Probably not.

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#12433 - 10/21/05 07:56 AM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
jjw004,
you say life would be boring yet, I didn't quite understand why. Please elaborate....

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#12434 - 10/21/05 04:48 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
The statement that is beyond dispute, and that should be made in regard to Rob's question "would an atheist world be a better one?" is:

It might not be a better one. But it certainly could not be a worse one.
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DA Morgan

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#12435 - 10/21/05 06:19 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Rob says to jw:
you say life would be boring yet, I didn't quite understand why. Please elaborate....

I said "pointless and boring"
Any project or conversation that is pointless is also boring to me. If an atheist feels there is nothing after death then that belief serves to make life pointless in my mind and pointless things are seen as boring to me. Religion gives people hope for something more, irrational or not, and to that end provide a mystery that will serve to keep the life cycle from boring us.
JW

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#12436 - 10/21/05 06:32 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
I don't know that an atheist society couldn't be worse than a religious one. Nevertheless, I'd feel more comfortable in an atheist society than I do now. I do believe that religious people - intelligent people with good will - are delusional. It's a little disconcerting to be near people who are talking to invisible friends.

jw, you find it boring and pointless now, but if you WERE an atheist, you would not likely find it that way.

There are things that I think are more important about people and societies than whether they believe in a deity.

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#12437 - 10/21/05 06:58 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Per FF to jw:
?If jw was an atheist life would not be found pointless and boring?

Life is what we make of it. So much of the every day experience of living fastens itself to us that I find it psychologically impossible to separate any of my life?s experience from my beliefs. I am not really a religious believer that concerns himself with God but I am compelled to think that there is some thing going on that is beyond our understanding. I do not want to recite what part of my life?s experience contributes to my attitude but it is compelling. It has not caused me to go to any church or practice any formal ritual relating to theology but it is there. I thought I dropped all thought of church and God when I gave up Catholicism as a young boy, and I really did. But things happen and cause ideas to change. I do not fear death so that is not a basis for my questioning ?reality? as seen by atheists. I find religious fervor highly objectionable in all forms and avoid it and those that espouse it. I can not think totally as an atheist, it is beyond my ability and my experience.
jw

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#12438 - 10/21/05 07:05 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
"I can not think totally as an atheist, it is beyond my ability and my experience."

That's a fair enough statement. You believe now that if the "world were atheist" (whatever that means), that you would find life pointless and boring. But while we who actually ARE atheists are few in number, not all of us find our lives boring and pointless.

Thinking the way you do, it's difficult for you to imagine that atheists could not feel the same emotions that you do. It's possible that were you an ACTUAL atheist you might feel just the way you think you would feel. OTOH, while I can't speak for all atheists, I can speak for myself (and I *KNOW* it applies to at least a few others) that we don't see our lives as either of those two things.

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#12439 - 10/21/05 10:57 PM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
Philege Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/30/04
Posts: 184
Loc: United Kingdom
This one is for Rob

I'll start with you, Philege, you said; "Ask me why I believe in God and the 'soul' and I might tell you a thing or two which may change your point of view." Well now I'm asking you.

In 1978 my late brother had graduated from from University of Rhodesia with Bachelor of Science degree. He was a pronounced atheist, this I presume came from the University influence, you know 'enlightenment' etc just like you guys. Anyway, at that time in Rhodesia there was a rageing civil war, so soon after graduation my late brother was drafted into the army, and during training he was accidentally shot through the neck whilst practising with the rest of his unit on the firing range. To cut a long story short after several days of unconciousness and extensive surgery to his spinal cord he came round. The surgeon who operated on him was one of the most renouned brain surgeons in Africa at the time. He summoned our family to his office after the many hours in the operating theatre. He told us that he was very surprised that my brother was still alive since his jugular vein had been severed and he had virtually no blood in his body. To make matters worse only a small thread of his spinal cord was holding, so he cut some bone from my brother's thigh to surround this fragile portion so it could fuse with the surrounding bone and protect this small attachment. He explained to our horror that my brother was paralysed from the neck down and there was no hope of recovery. He also explained that my brother would not be able to speak as his vocal cords had been ruptured by the bullet. He actually stated that he could not understand how my brother had survived the shooting and that in his professional opinion it was a miracle that he was alive. This puzzled us. Anyway as the week went by my brother seemed to be recovering very rapidly and by end of that second week he could whisper. He indicated that I should come closer to him, so I placed my ear just above his mouth so I could hear what he was saying. This is what he told me.

"From the moment the bullet went through my neck, I found myself hurtling into the air, when I looked down, I saw myself lying bleeding on the ground, I saw the medics and other soldier surrounding me and trying to revive me, I watched everything taking place, even the army ambulance which came and picked me up. Suddenly I saw a bright light, then my entire life flashed before me, every aspect from the moment I was born to the moment I was shot and a voice spoke to me, a gentle loving voice, which told me 'William, you see your life before you, generally you have been quite good, but you lacked something, you did not believe in me, so I am sending you back one last time so that you can reconcile yourself back to me'" When I stood up again I looked down at my brother, to see he was weeping. Afterwards he only spoke about God and how good he was and that he truly did exist. Finally a priest came and gave him extreme unction and took his final confession. He explained to me that he was sorry that he never encouraged me to believe in God, and this was one of the reasons he was sent back. He told me other things spiritual which ofcourse are personal so I won't go further. He also told me that while he was on the other side he saw my late father as well as other relatives who had long passed away. He even predicted some things which would happen, and warned us to take care. This story is one of several ones I can personally vouch for as well as other members of my family. One thing I know, is that my brother was an intelligent genius, and if he after professing to be atheist can do a 360 degree about turn, there must be something in what he said. I do know, one thing he never lied to me and strangely enough we did not believe that his time was limited, we were hoping he would recover but after three weeks he passed away. Strangely enough there is a twist to the story, because I was told by him on the night he died that he had passed away. When my sister came to tell me in the morning I told her not to bother as I knew what had happened to him. She was shocked for I gave a full description of how he looked with blood running down his nose, which she had seen when she was shown his dead body. So there you have it, no one can convince me that this is made up and no one can convince me THAT THERE IS NO GOD WHO IS LOVING AND GOOD LIKE THE GOD THAT EXISTS and if only we would stop looking too deeply and be like children, believing we might gain some insight into His goodness.

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#12440 - 10/22/05 12:00 AM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
When people are at their weakest, they don't think clearly. Your brother's fate, while tragic, is irrelevant to the discussion.

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#12441 - 10/22/05 12:07 AM Re: would an atheist world be a better one?
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Member Philege:

That was a great story and I do believe every detail. I think that one reason some of us do not accept religion more deeply is because our belief in our own degree of intelligence is exaggerated and we are confronted with a Biblical God that behaves more human than God-like, and at times devil like. I do believe in a superior life form or a watcher, so to speak, but I pay no homage towards it.

For Member FF:

Possibly my use of the words ?pointless and boring? were unproductive. I do not see any day to day difference between those that ?believe? and those that do not. In terms of the significance of life, if there is any, I find that the mere coming and going makes character building and learning seem for naught. If out final destiny is surely dust then it makes the trip seem pointless. I never saw any dust worth looking up to and large headstones or massive art collections mean nothing at all to me. I like to think that while we can not take material things with us when the body turns to dust that there may be a place where our spirit will make use of what we have accomplished so we may get better at what counts to us. I really dislike exposing my views this way but I do enjoy the exchange of ideas.

Your life is not pointless and boring because you have us to entertain you.
Jim Wood

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