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#12194 - 09/23/05 05:45 AM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Anonymous
Unregistered


I asked you to define specifically which god you wanted me to systematically disprove.
REP: God is understood by you to be known.No one can prove or disprove it you.
Once you know by following or creating then only you can question it. It is as subjective as that.
If you want to disprove , Disprove the following :
God is everything.

While doing so remember that contradiction is not a criteria to prove or disprove.
The only criteria of acceptable reasoning is
"Ability to influence the reality."

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.
#12195 - 10/05/05 10:27 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
quote..

And that why can only be answered in one of three ways:
1. Your god didn't know penicillin existed.
2. Your god knew about penicillin and kept secret.
3. Your god doesn't exist.

You tell me ... which of these 3 you believe. It is, after all, your personal god.

Speaking for myself ... if (1) Then god didn't create it ... if (2) god is a genocidal maniac filled with hate and malice. Thus I choose 3.


------------------------------------

I have heard this kind of arguement before. What kind of god allows suffering? Well is may be that children dying from penicillin treatable illnesses is a direct consequence of 'The Fall' and is part of a universe that God did not want, but humankind chose. C.S. Lewis wrote 'Suffering is God's bugle horn to an otherwise deaf world'.

And although in this case God may not be involved at a Macro level - who can say whether God is involved at a micro level - in the lives of the individual dying - preparing them for something else or talking to them when they are most willing to listen. Who knows what pacts are made just before closing time.

And yes of course, if you do not believe in anything other that life as an uncreated series of chemical reactions with a very final end, then suffering is nothing more than pointless and meaningless. But if life is about choosing and a preparation for a more permanent experience of existence, then suffering can lose some of it's indignity and horror - and will be seen in the end to be only a drop in an ocean of experiences.

There are more options that the three you posited. Do you want a creator to end all suffering? Then that creator must also stop humankind from doing almost everything, and keep people in a moral straight-jacket that would be suffocating, because most of what we do causes someone or other pain. Ever been selfish, unfaithful, told an untruth, became angry, insulted anyone and made them feel small, or even lived in a society that consumes more than it needs whilst children die in some parts of the world for want of cheap oral rehydration therapy?

I think on the whole we need to look closer to home to find out why most suffering is not alleviated, instead of blaming God.

Sorry for this post, I know this is not the site for it, but it won't do to let points such as this go unanswered.

Regards,

Blacknad.

I expect most people to now give me a one star rating smile

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#12196 - 10/06/05 12:48 AM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Dogrock Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 92
Loc: Ireland
It's the scientists who explained that the earth was not flat. And they've never stopped informing us of the world we live in, or of inventing things to solve the problems we face. I could thank god for making the scientists to dripple out secondhand knowledge. But then their efforts and mine would be so meaningless, that I doubt if any of us would bother discussing god.

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#12197 - 10/06/05 09:20 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad

Of course you've heard that argument before. And you'll hear it again as it is valid.

If "God" created everything that is not everything good ... that is EVERY thing. Thus the malicious little troll must accept full credit/blame for every creation that is not man-made (at a minimum).

So who created the polio virus?
So who created the AIDS virus?
Want to take a whack at childhood leukemia?

Oh heck make it easy on yourself. How about why males have nipples?

So which is it? Ignorance? Malice? Or Option 3?
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12198 - 10/07/05 02:53 AM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
DA,

Well I presume that male nipples are a by-product of the evolutionary process - seems straightforward enough.
But if that were not the case - I know of guys who like having them played with or sucked (not by me of course smile ) So I suppose that if one did not accept evolution, it is not beyond the boundary of belief to think that male nipples were created as a sensual device, purely there for enjoyment. But I plump for the evolutionary vestige, especially as I find mine get a little sensitive and uncomfortable if anyone tries to play with them - hardly a pleasure device for me.

As for the existence of the AIDS virus, well this is more difficult.

I believe it is a direct consequence of the fall.

When we chose to go our own way, there was a severe consequence - we put emnity between ourselves and the natural world.

"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field."

It seems to me that like the laws of physics, there is a universal moral law. The ACTION was to choose a path contrary to God's advice, the REACTION was a complete breakdown in the relationship between humankind and this planet.

A breakdown that has reverberated throughout history and includes polio, and dying children and may culminate in us making this planet unfit for human life.
For me it goes some way to explaining why we as a species (evolved on this planet and presumably by all reasonable thinking, should be suited to it and able to co-exist within it) have such a destructive relationship with nature, including stripping it of forests at an outrageous rate, being implicated in the extinction of other species, and probably contributing to climate change that may prove fatal for us, and yet again for other species.

So for me, there are still more choices than the three you offered - I choose:

4. He has chosen to bear the cost of creating (by whatever method), sentient beings that have chosen to ignore him and do things their own way and making a right royal mess of his creation (that at one point he proclaimed as 'good'), whilst at the same time denying his existence because they cannot believe in a being that would create such a world.

I am talking about the grand scheme of things here and I am not belittling your or any other scientist's achievements in helping us to understand this world and undoing some of the damage done by the choices I believe we have made.

DA - I know that none of these answers will seem like anything other than nonsense to you, but I am sure you will forgive me for stating a sincerely held view - even if you do think it is madness.

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#12199 - 10/07/05 07:19 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad wrote:
"As for the existence of the AIDS virus, well this is more difficult.

I believe it is a direct consequence of the fall."

Oh come on know Blacknad. What fall? Surely not a fall that occurred outside of God's realm. Certainly not one that took place with his knowledge. Certainly not one that occurred without acquiescence?

The free-will argument has been made before but it fails to stand up to even the smallest attempt to debunk it.

Who created Adam?
Who created Eve?
Who created the garden?
Who created everything in the garden?
Who created the ability to have free will?
Who set the golden trap KNOWING IN ADVANCE the outcome?

Or is your malicious little troll to stupid to understand the consequences of its own actions?

Once again you can't have it both ways. You can not hypocritically say ... I created all of the conditions, set everything in motion, knew the inevitable outcome, but had nothing to do with it.

That excuse may seem acceptable to teenage boys trying to explain to a girl's father how she got pregnant. But I doubt the father would buy it and neither should any rational adult. The "it just happened" defense is for children age 2-4.

Want to try again?
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12200 - 10/08/05 02:30 AM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Oh come on know Blacknad. What fall?
1. Surely not a fall that occurred outside of God's realm.
2. Certainly not one that took place with his knowledge.
3. Certainly not one that occurred without acquiescence?

Dan,

1. Accepted.
2. The fall took place with God's knowledge - yes.
3. I do not believe that God acquiesced, as in 'consent or comply passively or without protest'. He certainly gave warning and certainly protested - but I am not sure that this is what you meant. What follows in your post is the real question.

The idea, simply put, that God would go on to create a race of sentient, free-willed creatures despite knowing all that would ensue, including uncountable instances of the most outrageous suffering and the fact that the majority of those created would reject him and end up existing separately from him.

I can see why you would think this is sheer nonsense and why you would feel that the fact that anyone who holds this view defies any logical explanation.

And I can see the relationship this statement implies -

God created beings that would reject him + this would lead to immense suffering = God created immense suffering.


I am sure that if I was an entity considering creating such a creature I would think 'well... on balance, I think I'll give it a miss'.


But I believe that God did not come to that conclusion. I believe that God considered everything and decided to go ahead and create.

And I do not know what the 'everything' was, that God took into consideration when deciding that on balance it was better to create that not to.

Obviously the question still remains - How can a being be described as good when he has directly created a situation where suffering and evil actions come into being?

Well who defines what is good or bad? Is it us or is it God? Is it us with our limited understanding of the 'everything' that God took into consideration?
Can we honestly and conclusively say that God is bad or a ?malicious little troll? for weighing up the options and deciding that on balance it was better to act than not to? Better to create creatures and give them the incredible opportunity to experience existence - to love and create and explore and discover and experience the incredible privilege of giving birth to life themselves? - And in doing so he has done no evil directly.

Your argument, it seems, would argue any God into inaction, and yet we human beings create children every day that may go on to perpetrate incredible evils and visit horrific suffering upon others or suffer, themselves, from painful and lingering deaths. At the least they will go on to hurt someone at some point in their lives ? who doesn?t. Are you saying that we should give up procreation?

You will still probably feel that I have not answered the central question - How can a good god give birth to a situation that will allow or even enforce evil. Well I feel that the question rests upon assumptions about the nature of evil and has within it a self derived belief that says the act of creating a situation that will bring about both incredible good alongside incredible evil is in itself an evil act. We are indeed deep in the land of metaphysics and may find that at this point our very thought processes & language are too narrow to be able to grasp the extent of variables involved in deciding whether a god is guilty or innocent.

I would need much more time and space to do this subject any great service, but I am conscious that this forum is a science forum, not religion and philosophy, and I am sure this debate is intruding upon the real business here.


I still believe there are more options to define a God that chooses to create under these circumstances than the three you posited. Religious matters cannot be that black and white. They are not subject to Occam's razor and sometimes you find the answer by going the long way round.
I understand why people who have shaped and disciplined their minds to excel in the area of science will often find religious debate nonsensical, for you are surely not as happy to trade in the suppositions, conjecture and the intangible ghosts of theology, but would much rather deal with concrete falsifiable facts.

I still choose option four.

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#12201 - 10/08/05 06:35 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad wrote:
"I do not believe that God acquiesced, as in 'consent or comply passively or without protest'. He certainly gave warning and certainly protested...."

So your God is so powerful he can create the entire universe. So knowledgeable he could set up every physical constant and design DNA and the gluons that hold together quarks. But yet you wish us to believe that either (A) His protests so weak as to be ignored or (B) Capable of flooding the entire planet but incapable of stopping one human from eating an apple. Heck my mother could stop someone from eating an apple and she's well over 80. Please apply some of the material between your ears to responding to questions.

Blacknad further wrote:
"The idea, simply put, that God would go on to create a race of sentient, free-willed creatures despite knowing all that would ensue,...."

And you see an entity that knowing in advance that he was setting up the conditions for the Holocaust, the Turkish genocide, and Inquisition, etc. and let it happen as an all loving father? Please explain this one.

Let me remind you that this is the same god that had children torn apart by bears for insulting an old man. Yet does nothing to stop genocide, torture, and rape? An explanation is required.

And Blacknad further wrote:
"But I believe that God did not come to that conclusion."

And on what basis have you determined this? How can an omniscient entity, all knowing, not come to a conclusion? That is a logical impossibility.

Blacknad further wrote:
"I still believe there are more options to define a God that chooses to create under these circumstances than the three you posited."

If you believe in the malicious little troll then you believe it gave you a brain: Use it. Come up with a fourth possibility.

I'll state my three again.

1. I created everything thus I know it exists and choose not to tell you.
2. I created everything but I don't know it exists.
3. I don't exist.

This time please apply critical thinking before responding. Your response this time does more to undermine your position than to support it.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12202 - 10/09/05 09:53 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
DA Morgan ?
Let me remind you that this is the same god that had children torn apart by bears for insulting an old man. Yet does nothing to stop genocide, torture, and rape? An explanation is required.

REP: This is the story of the prophet Elisha calling down a curse upon some ?children?, forty-two of whom who were subsequently mauled by two she-bears. (The bears, Ursus Syriacus inhabited Palestine at the time). It is comfortably assumed that the passage is making the point that God sent the bears out, and that this was not just some bizarre coincidence.
In this instance it seems that God may not have torn children apart. The words used to describe the ?children?, (sometimes translated ?youths?), is translated from the Hebrew term ?neurim qetannim? which can best be understood in relation to how it is used elsewhere in the bible.

1. It was used to describe Isaac when he was in his twenties.
2. It was used to describe Joseph in Genesis 37:2 when he was seventeen.
3. It was used to describe soldiers in 1 Kings 20:14-15, who were up to the age of thirty.

The passage in 2 Kings 2:23-25 says forty-two males were mauled by two bears - it does not say whether there were any more present, but it is possible as it is likely that many ran away and escaped a mauling as the bears ravaged their way through the crowd.

So we have a crowd of over forty-two males, up to 30 years old, taunting a lone traveller who after performing a mercy mission in nearby Jericho was making his way through an area possibly very hostile to him as it was a centre of Baal worship. A religion that practiced child sacrifice, amongst other barbaric acts and was probably not entirely enamoured of the followers of Jehovah.

Now in my reading of the situation, Elisha was facing an angry mob and was possibly in serious danger.

There is also no way of knowing if the forty-two were actually killed, because the Hebrew word translated as mauled may easily indicate less serious injuries.


So ?the same god that had children torn apart by bears for insulting an old man? is not an apt way to pr?cis this passage, and just as it is essential in scientific research to gather all of the facts, so it is here also.

DA Morgan ?
?does nothing to stop genocide, torture, and rape?

REP: I refer you to the post - 05-10-2005 18:27October 05, where I stated:

Do you want a creator to end all suffering? Then that creator must also stop humankind from doing almost everything, and keep people in a moral straight-jacket that would be suffocating, because most of what we do causes someone or other pain. Ever been selfish, unfaithful, told an untruth, became angry, insulted anyone and made them feel small, or even lived in a society that consumes more than it needs whilst children die in some parts of the world for want of cheap oral rehydration therapy?

- God did not create mindless robots that unquestioningly obey his every command. The human race may go on to create robots with A.I. (complete with the three laws), but I am not sure that, like our children, they will ever love us or actually have a choice about whether they want to know us or not. I believe that we are free to rape and pillage and stick two fingers up to creation as well as each other because God did want to give us that choice. But also remember that we are free to love each other and to enjoy beauty, art, the world, relationships, debate, sex, exploration and of course science.

I think that if humanity voted whether it wanted to exist or not, despite everything - the ayes would have it. So whilst some are so unhappy with existence that they would want to kick a creator in the teeth, most people, including me, are grateful to be alive.

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#12203 - 10/09/05 09:59 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
DA Morgan -
And Blacknad further wrote:
"But I believe that God did not come to that conclusion."

And on what basis have you determined this? How can an omniscient entity, all knowing, not come to a conclusion? That is a logical impossibility.

REP: Yes that would be a logical impossibility. However, I did not say that God failed to come to a conclusion. I stated -

?But I believe that God did not come to THAT conclusion. I believe that God considered everything and decided to go ahead and create.?

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#12204 - 10/09/05 10:59 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad wrote:
"Do you want a creator to end all suffering?"

Is that request unreasonable? Is it moral for a man and woman to give birth to a child and then leave it to starve to death? Is it moral for people to let horse die of an infection when they could get a vet to give it an antibiotic? Do you hold the one you worship to a lower standard?

Please don't write a damned dissertation. A simple yes or no will suffice.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12205 - 10/09/05 11:03 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad wrote:
"?But I believe that God did not come to THAT conclusion. I believe that God considered everything and decided to go ahead and create.?"

So your all-knowing, all-powerful, malicious little genocidal troll knowing he was creating the single most wicked and horrible situation in the entire universe carefully reviewed the facts and was too damned much of a moron to come up with anything better. Amazing.

Giraffes seem to get along just fine without genocide. So do mountain gorillas. So does the grass growing on my lawn. You actually want us to belive that after creating millions of species that don't commit torture and murder he then created one that did and said "What the heck ... this should be fun to watch ... sort of like the World Wrestling Federation ... but the blood will be real.

I am impressed. Do you worship the memory of Josef Mengele too?
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12206 - 10/11/05 07:55 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Dan,

Elsewhere I have accused you of bluster - and it was based upon your last few posts here.

I don't mean it maliciously, but it seems obvious that you are very irritated by having to talk to stupid religious people.

I have answers, and good answers, but they need time to explain. I cannot debate in yes and no terms as you request. The issues are much more complex than that.

So I shall bow out of this particular discussion.

But I have enjoyed debating with you, even if you do think I am a sad, unthinking muppet.

And you have certainly made me examine what I believe a little closer.

I just hope there are no hard feelings, because we are fellow travellers through life - even if we do have differing understanding of what that life is about.


I can't sum it up as well as Amaranth:

'Survivors of the crucible, these afrighted children,
Need some gentle gathering-in to lead them
Into some sheltered lee to bring them
Close enough to normalcy to realize
Some sense of kinship with the rest;
Close enough to realize all are one species;
That, "We are all of one blood, thou and I."

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#12207 - 10/11/05 11:35 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Can't resist - I've just realised that you got forty points on the crackpot index for the following statement:

I am impressed. Do you worship the memory of Josef Mengele too?

Crackpot Index

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#12208 - 10/12/05 02:52 AM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad wrote:
"I don't mean it maliciously, but it seems obvious that you are very irritated by having to talk to stupid religious people."

Irritated no. If I was irritated I would ignore you.

I find you dangerous. I find all sentient beings incapable of applying logic to sensory inputs dangerous.

You folks have been the root cause of too much genocide, too much murder, too much torture. And rarely even an apology much less a willing acceptance of punishment fitting the crime.

I can forgive a unviverse that unhypocritically causes and accepts suffering. I give no quarter to those that observe the suffering, shrug their shoulders, and call it 'gods will'.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12209 - 10/12/05 08:51 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Just to clarify, because I am weak willed and find I must answer you because you misrepresent me.

I am embarrased by Christianity's actions when they conflict with it's founders commands.

Anything that has been done that conflicts with the following statements is undefendable:

Love one another.

Turn the other cheek.

Love your enemies.

There is not one word of Christ's that justifies violence, or even the disgraceful persecution of gays, or the equally disgusting racism that you might encounter in the Bible belt. Any Christian that kills or maims a Doctor who performs abortion is beyond contempt - (it has happened). The same for genocide (Rwanda).

The same is true of the inquisition, the witch trials, and the crusades.

I am equally embarassed that the Catholic pronouncements on contraception have led to many deaths from Aids.

The church should never hold such power - power is a corrupting force.

Christ asked us to lay down power and take up love - he urged nothing but serving others - all others, not just the ones you agree with or like.

It should not be forgotten that many people 'play' at religion, there are fewer real Christians than you could imagine.

"Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

And I am intimately familiar with suffering, and know better than to shrug my shoulders and say it is 'God's Will'. The issue is far more complex than that.

Do not demolish straw men.

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#12210 - 10/12/05 10:21 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
I am a person that does not believe in God, and yet I respect all religions and their beliefs.
I find Blacknad lacking in his respect for the new 'science of truth'. He cannot even integrate those confirmed historical truths of the Bible, with archeological scientific discoverys.
In fact he dos'nt even try, for which I might give him some credit if he did. But rather prefers to talk about God as though he/it was a realistic person.
He does'nt even mention one of the first intelligent scientists that walked upon this world, Moses.
Who, went up the mountain to carve out the Ten commandments on stone, in peace, solitude, and thoughtfulness.
Of course we all know that God didnt write them, since Moses broke them in his anger upon seeing his 'flock' dancing around a golden calf. He went right back up the mountain and recarved the Ten Commandments a second time.
Ahhh would'nt life be wonderful if we all lived by the ten commandments alone. Without all the extras of non existant Gods, hate, love and hypocrasy,...added by man.
Thank goodness I generally follow the Jewish religion, one of the very few religions that does not require you to believe in God.
A religion that is more akin to Buddism than anything else, (since Buddism arose out of Judaism)
Both ways of life, I find, give all those who follow those paths, a lasting psychological and mental contentment, plus completness.
Which is what everyones life should be about.
_________________________
.

.
"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#12211 - 10/13/05 02:56 AM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well said, Mike! Just wish Shasta were reading this. He chose to name Buddhism as his religion when he had his Eagle Scout board of review. It got him through the review board; he's now an Eagle Scout.

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#12212 - 10/13/05 06:05 AM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have heard this kind of arguement before. What kind of god allows suffering? Well is may be that children dying from penicillin treatable illnesses is a direct consequence of 'The Fall' and is part of a universe that God did not want, but humankind chose. C.S. Lewis wrote 'Suffering is God's bugle horn to an otherwise deaf world'.
REP: Wish to share some Philosophy here..God is not seperate from you.... it is you and at no point infact you are away from him...you need to know this ..Knowning that he is you is not sufficient ... living like God is required. Thus knowledge is God. Know whatever you can know till you know me. we are moving up ... keep it up.

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#12213 - 10/13/05 08:00 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Mike Kremmer:

'prefers to talk about God as though he/it was a realistic person'

REP: I talk about God as he is portrayed in the Bible, along with 99% of the 2.1 billion Christians in the world.


'cannot even integrate those confirmed historical truths of the Bible, with archeological scientific discoverys.'

REP: Can you give me some examples of where I haven't?


'Of course we all know that God didn?t write them, since Moses broke them in his anger upon seeing his 'flock' dancing around a golden calf.'

REP: I cannot follow the connection here:

We all know God didn?t write them,
since Moses broke them in his anger..

Moses? breaking of the tablets symbolised the broken relationship between the Israelites and God, because of their actions. His breaking them does not have any bearing on whether God wrote them.


Ahhh would'nt life be wonderful if we all lived by the ten commandments alone.

REP: Yes, especially as the first one is ?You shall have no other god?s before me?.


?I generally follow the Jewish religion, one of the very few religions that does not require you to believe in God.?

REP: Any religion that does not require you to believe in a God is a ?system of philosophy?, and should dispense of most of its tradition. If you want to believe in a religion that does not require a belief in God, why not just forget the whole thing and concentrate on formulating a system for living and defining morality that is purely based upon human reasoning, instead of tradition and myth.


What are the core beliefs of this Jewish/Buddhist religion? I would be interested to hear it from you ? although I have a good idea.


Regards,

Blacknad.

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