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#12374 - 03/03/06 09:22 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Beaker Offline
Member

Registered: 12/09/05
Posts: 34
Loc: Hatfield - Herts - UK
DA, you seem to consider god alot even though you claim to disbelieve inhim. to be this suggegests a lapsed believer. How about it? Did you ever believe or were you raised in the church?
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#12375 - 03/04/06 03:48 AM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Anonymous
Unregistered


All the adjective my dear Moragn used can be applied to all the leaders of the world...
You can not tranfer your byproduct to a temple...
which remains pure and hygenic.
If you are searching for the Truth then the truth has already been told to you. It is Blunt.
We are living like a frog in a well.
God intentions are as holy as your definition of Honesty.

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#12376 - 03/04/06 05:34 AM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Beaker wrote:
"to be this suggegests a lapsed believer."

Never, in my life, have I smoked a single cigarette.
Never, in my adult life, have I believed in anything that didn't meet the criteria of science.

Raised in an environment where I was taken to church until age 12 and then treated like an adult ... allowed to make up my own mind. And I had one.

Since then I have taken comparative religion classes at university, read a lot of theology and philosophy. And I still come back to the same thing. I reject cocaine and heroin in my life because they are addictive and just make you feel good for a short time. Pretty much the same reason I reject all religions. The difference being only that one I can more easily discard. There are fewer drug pushers than theology pushers. But they are all equally evil. All trying to make money by subverting intelligence and common sense.
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DA Morgan

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#12377 - 03/04/06 05:44 AM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dvk wrote:
"All the adjective my dear Moragn used can be applied to all the leaders of the world..."

Absolutely true. So why don't you get on your knees and pray to Levy Mwanawasa? Perhaps because as evil as he is he never created smallpox and never gave a child leukemia.

dvk wrote:
"You can not tranfer your byproduct to a temple...
which remains pure and hygenic."

Temple? I said nothing about a temple. I want to lying hypocritical genocidal maniac to face me man-to-man.

dvk wrote:
"If you are searching for the Truth then the truth has already been told to you. It is Blunt."

Truth is verifiable. Truth doesn't hide behind burning bushes, anonymous books, secret conferences, and commit wholesale genocidal murder. The truth to which you refer is the truth of 1984 and George Orwell.

dvk wrote:
"We are living like a frog in a well."

You are perhaps. Speak for yourself. You know nothing of me and my life. I don't dwell in your darkness.

dvk wrote:
"God intentions are as holy as your definition of Honesty."

So when he murdered everyone on the planet that was holiness?

So when he murdered every first born male in a country that was holiness?

So when he created smallpox, rabies, leukemia, AIDS, polio, typhoid, malaria that was holiness.

Now I understand why those who believe in him have such a love of bloodsheed and holy water. They can't tell the two apart.

You really should seek professional counseling.
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DA Morgan

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#12378 - 03/05/06 08:28 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
Poor DA, having to fend off the blind all by yourself.

At least they haven't pulled the infamous free will card on you.

" We chose to eat the apple and therefore doomed humanity to this hellish existence..."

My response to that has always been, God is like an immature control freak parent which only thinks you are worth anything when you follow his way of thinking completely.

Give it up guys, if you believe in God and Satan then you must see that Satan won the bet and God really doesn't care about it, he is probably out creating other worlds populated with mindless idiots since that is what he wants from his followers. The only things Lucifer got punished for was asking a simple question, falling in love with humans ( depending on what you read) and stating the simple fact and God sentenced him to hell for it.

IS this a loving father figure or an evil, megolomanical person? If God had been a real person we would have declared him an unfit parent and locked him up for child abuse: i.e. allowing his son to be tortured and killed to prove some obscure point.

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#12379 - 03/06/06 04:39 AM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Chaos wrote:
"At least they haven't pulled the infamous free will card on you."

If they do they'll be having a proctologist recover it for them: Perhaps they sense that.

You are correc though. Their concept of a loving god/father is a merciless vengeful control freak. And one with one heck of a need to be overtly worshipped Sort of the ultimate school-yard bully.

And you are correct ... if there really is a God and Satan then there is no question who is in control. Only Satan could lead so many into the wholesale slaughter, bloodshed, and torture used by all of the major religions.
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#12380 - 03/06/06 12:24 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Chaoslillith,

If I had the same simplistic understanding of theology as you then I would probably draw the same conclusions, but I have taken the time to understand monotheistic religions a little better.

Blacknad.

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#12381 - 03/06/06 12:27 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
IS this a loving father figure or an evil, megolomanical person?

Neither - He is a god and the Bible recognises that we can barely grasp at what he is really like so it constantly talks in symbols and the nearest thing that we can understand.

Blacknad.

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#12382 - 03/06/06 12:29 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
"God is like an immature control freak parent "

- If that was so, you would have the freedom to do nothing - but instead you have been given the freedom to do as you please - there are just consequences. As there are consequences for the whole of humanity if we continue as we are and make this planet uninhabitable for future generations.

Blacknad.

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#12383 - 03/06/06 12:40 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
"Only Satan could lead so many into the wholesale slaughter, bloodshed, and torture used by all of the major religions."

- Considering that throughout history, the majority of humanity have believed in gods and have been responsible for the minority of wars. Most wars are secular in nature. In fact by far the most bloodshed has nothing at all to do with religion.

Religion is abused in all sorts of ways and used as an excuse to war with others, but the basis of the Christian faith is very clear - 'love your enemies' and 'serve others needs instead of your own' and I can keep trotting them out. Because religion (like anything else) can be abused, it does not follow that religion is inherently destructive.

How are the non-religious doing? How many Christians do I know who give up everything and serve others? Many. The quiet revolution that you will never hear about because they are told to 'do what you do privately, seeking no reward'.

Do not for one moment think you understand Christianity. You only hear and see the minority of loud and violent people who have wilfully ignored the message at the heart of Christianity. You do not see the millions who just go about their business, doing good.

It's easy to sit where you are and criticize Christianity, but it is a good deal nearer the solution to human problems than anything else is. It is the only real religion that deals with an internal struggle to overcome selfishness and do what is best for others, the community and the world as a whole.

DA, you have asked why I reject all other religions. The answer is that Christianity is the only one that deals with the heart of the issue. All other religions and ideologies are either wishy-washy feel good rubbish that have no real application to the real world, or they are like Islam which is all about an external struggle. Christianity is the only one with the central idea that on our own we just cannot do the right thing, but all other religions pander to the idea that we can do it ourselves and earn our way into heaven.

Does anyone want to stand up for the idea that the human race can get it right on its own?

Since the UK has thrown off the ?shackles? of Christianity, we have lurched from one social disaster to another, and from one low to another. Let?s have a Guiness Book of Records for that ? youngest teen mum (in fact forget the word ?teen?), the youngest child murderer, the youngest child to rape a teacher (currently 12). The annual amount of children who lose their virginity when drunk - the annual amount of teen pregnancies/abortions. Youngest person using drugs. Worst ?happy slapping? ? the highest amount of children sedated with Ritalin. The book would run and run. So what teaches moral responsibility in the place of Christianity today? ? well in the UK we have a rather noticeable gap, and I can?t see it being filled anytime soon.

Blacknad.

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#12384 - 03/06/06 01:33 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
Actually Black I have no problems with the message behind the religion. It's the fact that organized religion gives humans a huge amount of ground to justify things such as the crusades, racism, the whole Middle East conflict ( pick one conflict there are so many), witch burnings, torture, extermination of races (Native Americans for one) and the list goes on. I am just against any form of organized religion because it is a guarantee that someone will twist it to their own purposes.

I was raised Catholic, I have listened to the scripture over and over and to be quite honest I found it quite interesting how people overlooked certain things throughout history. Many times it was the heathens that were living according to what Christ taught but historically the "heathens" were destroyed because they were not Christian.

I take a bit of offense to you stating that only "Christians" do good works for no rewards. I know a lot of people who volunteer and help those not as fortunate and many of them have left the church because they could not stand the hypocrisy of those in it.

Religion can be wonderful and it can be the most destructive force in the world. By the way most of the major wars used some point in religion to justify them, even Hitler did.

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#12385 - 03/06/06 07:51 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad wrote:
"If I had the same simplistic understanding of theology as you then I would probably draw the same conclusions, but I have taken the time to understand monotheistic religions a little better."

Insulting and without substance to substantiate that you know anything of Chaos's understanding of monotheistic religion. I expected better than this.
Perhaps an apology is in order.
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DA Morgan

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#12386 - 03/06/06 07:53 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad wrote:
IS this a loving father figure or an evil, megolomanical person?

Neither - He is a god and the Bible recognises that we can barely grasp at what he is really like so it constantly talks in symbols and the nearest thing that we can understand.

Nonsense Blacknad. I can clearly and easily grasp and comprehend a world-wide flood killing innocent children. I can also comprehend the murder of every first-born male in an entire country. Not to mention smallpox, AIDS, leukemia, polio and a host of other inventions of said deity.

If there is some aspect of smallpox I can not grasp then that fault clearly lies with the creator of both me and smallpox doesn't it?
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DA Morgan

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#12387 - 03/06/06 08:21 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad wrote:
"- Considering that throughout history, the majority of humanity have believed in gods and have been responsible for the minority of wars. Most wars are secular in nature. In fact by far the most bloodshed has nothing at all to do with religion."

A nice fairy tale but history does not support it.
Try these on for size:

First Crusade 1096-1099
People's Crusade 1096
German Crusade 1096
Minor Crusade 1101
Second Crusade 1145-1187
Third Crusade 1189-1192
Fourth Crusade 1202-1204
Albigensian Crusade 1209-1229
Children's Crusade 1212
Fifth Crusade 1217-1221
Sixth Crusade 1228-1244
Seventh Crusade 1248-1254
1st Shepherd's Crusade 1251
Eighth Crusade 1270
Ninth Crusade 1269-1291
2nd Shepherd's Crusade 1320
Northern Crusades 1193-1410
The War of the Roses 1455-1485
The French Wars of Religion 1562-1598

And these are just off the top of my head. Want me to see some real research.

"Most wars were secular?" Hardly. That is a fabrication so easily challenged I am amazed you put it into play. The reality of the Christian Church is that it is soaked in blood and that bloodshed continues to almost this very day in Northern Ireland where the Catholics and Protestants are at each others throats.
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DA Morgan

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#12388 - 03/06/06 09:07 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Chaoslillith said - "It's the fact that organized religion gives humans a huge amount of ground to justify things such as the crusades, racism, the whole Middle East conflict ( pick one conflict there are so many), witch burnings, torture, extermination of races (Native Americans for one) and the list goes on."

REP: Couldn't agree more. However the current Middle East conflict with the West is more to do with Western interference in the Middle East esp. American. For example, the USA support of the Israeli occupation of Palestine. The USA was happy to go into Kuwait when that was occupied, but is happy to support Israel to the tune of $134,791,507,200 so far.

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm


Chaoslillith said ? ?I am just against any form of organized religion because it is a guarantee that someone will twist it to their own purposes.?

REP: Couldn?t agree more. Organised Christian religions especially make a nonsense of the central message of Christ. Christianity is about individuals striving to deal with their selfishness, and church is a place where they meet to have fellowship and learn together, not to hatch evil plots to exert themselves on the rest of society. It is not about politics, enforcement or power. In fact, we are urged to put down power and take up servant hood.

Chaoslillith said ? ?Many times it was the heathens that were living according to what Christ taught but historically the "heathens" were destroyed because they were not Christian.?

REP: I agree with the first part ? Christianity does not have the monopoly on good living and is often shamed by non-believers. The church is full of dodgy people who are there because they especially realise their need for God. It does not surprise me, though it saddens me, that the church has so many sexual offenders esp. paedophiles. I will not defend organised religion when it has lost it and attacked heathens. When God chose to destroy a race it was usually because they were indulging in practises that were base in the extreme. Sacrificing children ?walking the fire? was a common practice amongst races that the Israelites were commanded to destroy. They were not blameless.

Chaoslillith said ? ?I take a bit of offense to you stating that only "Christians" do good works for no rewards. I know a lot of people who volunteer and help those not as fortunate and many of them have left the church because they could not stand the hypocrisy of those in it.?

REP: I understand why, and I would be a fool to say that non-believers do not do extraordinary good acts. The point was about where humanity naturally leads itself, and that seems to be towards the self indulgent lifestyle. TV attests to it, consumerism attests to it ? the amount we spend entertaining ourselves in terms of time and money is absolutely obscene when paralleled with those who exist in the two-thirds world who die from starvation. And it is also that I have seen many of my Christian friends just give up everything and sell everything to go and assist in a third world country. I just don?t personally know any non believer who has done the same (given up everything), except maybe take a gap year as a teen and volunteer somewhere and then come back to the fold ? I am not saying there aren?t any, but I have not met them. It?s just a question of percentages ? Christians are much more likely to do it. I don?t mean to offend you.

Chaoslillith said ? ?Religion can be wonderful and it can be the most destructive force in the world. By the way most of the major wars used some point in religion to justify them, even Hitler did.?

REP: I agree with both parts of your first sentence, but as for the second part ? I am sorry to be so blunt, but you demonstrate an ignorance of world history.

Hitler was driven by an atheist ideology. ?One historian has called it the reductio ad absurdum of the German tradition of nationalism, militarism, worship of success, and force, as well as the exaltation of state.?

He did not allude to religion in any way whatsoever.

And the point remains that Atheists win hands down when it comes to bloodshed. Vox Day puts it well:

?Who has not heard the Catholic Spanish Inquisition, (2,000 death sentences passed on to the Spanish Crown over 349 years) conflated with the pagan Holocaust (12 million murders in five years), and the atheist slaughters of the Great Terror, the Great Leap Forward and the Killing Fields. (4 million murders in 20 years, 30 million murders in 3 years and 2 million murders in four years, respectively.) And it is commonly asserted that religion is a major cause of war, although, as I have previously demonstrated, religion has only played a role in about 10 percent of all the wars in recorded history.?

?A more systematic review of the 489 wars listed in the Wikipedia's list of military conflicts, ranging from Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars to the 1969 Football War between Honduras and El Salvador, shows that only 53 of these wars - 10.8 percent - can reasonably be described as having a religious nature, even if one counts each of the 10 Crusades separately. If there is a god responsible for this ever-present bloodshed, it is Mars, not Jehovah or Jesus Christ.?


The myth that religion is the major cause of war is propagated by those ignorant of history.

If Christianity was ever put on trial it would be found without doubt to have propagated more good than harm. It is only those who have a shallow understanding and distorted view of it that think otherwise.


Regards,

Blacknad.

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#12389 - 03/06/06 09:20 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Dan wrote - "Insulting and without substance to substantiate that you know anything of Chaos's understanding of monotheistic religion. I expected better than this.
Perhaps an apology is in order."

REP: I don't know why, but I'm in quite a bullish mood - wouldn't normally be that harsh.

But on the basis of Chaos' post that I was responding to, I stand by my words.

He sets up straw men.

The biblical understanding of Lucifer's fall is more complex than Chaos suggests. It was not just for asking a question or falling in love with humans.

Blacknad.

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#12390 - 03/06/06 09:23 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Dan wrote - "And these are just off the top of my head. Want me to see some real research."

REP: Look Dan, I know your brain is better than most others and certainly sharper than mine, but never-the-less, I don't believe for one moment that they were all off the top of your head, complete with dates. smile

Blacknad.

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#12391 - 03/06/06 09:25 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
I said that religion was used as a justification, not the true cause of the wars. The Inquisition and the like were about power, money and politics but it was nicely wrapped in a religious package, same with the crusades etc. when politicians need a handy rallying cry it is either for God or Country that we go and die for.

I will concede that the Middle East conflicts have roots in Western intereference yet I must point out that it tends to be based in some part on religion. We are the Great Satan who is an infidel and therfore must be destroyed, the Jews want their homeland in the country where their religion was started, the Muslims hate Muslims that do not practice the same way. Yes, at it's core it is about power but how much harder is it to inflame the masses using the following justification: "Kill them because (insert leader name here) want their land." It works to some degree but not as well as "Kill them because our God commands it", or my personal favorite "We must kill them to save them from their heathen ways so they may have a chance in heaven." Errrr???

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#12392 - 03/06/06 09:28 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Chaoslillith Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 137
Just to clairfy, I am a she not a he.No worries though.

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#12393 - 03/06/06 10:40 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Can you believe it? I did the exact same thing as you did with Dan smile

Regards,

Blacknad.

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